Paradox of vu

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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby encode_decode » Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:34 am

Sorry about that: I meant moment as instant - English is confusing - moment can equal instant, therefore moment = instant

An instant is a discrete detachment from a continuum . . .

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:
encode_decode wrote:Each moment of consciousness has to die to give birth to the next.

:D


'moment' may be a rather long interval of time :-) ... though I'm inclined to believe the theory of 'discrete' frames of consciousness ... death and birth in a rhythmic dance with each other.

encode_decode ... perhaps our e-exchanges have achieved ... albeit temporary I'm sure ... a convergence ... or at least a partial convergence ... of two independent consciousness(s) ... perhaps. :D

speaking of Yin Yang ... have you read this short article on the topic ... http://chinesefortunecalendar.com/YinYang.htm

Personally I believe members of the Western Psyche are naturally inclined to 'see' Yin Yang through the prism of Western thought.

Interesting article by the way - thank you . . . Western thought if used properly can produce reconciliation.

I am certain our connection is permanent, it is just at times we become unaware of it.

:D
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:58 am

encode_decode wrote:I am certain our connection is permanent, it is just at times we become unaware of it.

:D


For me ... maintaining independence is imperative ... and I'm not being facetious.

Did you read my post where I wrote about "constipation of personal consciousness"?

I didn't really write about it ... the term appeared on the screen. :D

Perhaps I am coming to understand what I meant by it ... see ... I really am a slow learner. :D

People who interfere with the natural rhythm built into consciousness ... the rhythm of "death" and "birth" ... the inextricable dance the two entities participate in ... develop constipation of consciousness. Have you ever experienced constipation of the bowels ... not a pleasant experience.

Perhaps this points to the answer for waechter418's question:

Why is consciousness getting more and more discredited in Western civilization whose philosophers, artists, priests & poets held it, since the early Greeks, in high esteem.

Is it because modern western sciences pay little attention to consciousness, and if so, only to try to bind it into matter?

Or is it that people are increasingly captured by the material aspects of existence and thus become callous to consciousness?


Perhaps the Western collective consciousness is seriously constipated ... they continue to cling to an old "birth"

any thoughts?
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby encode_decode » Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:05 am

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:Perhaps the Western collective consciousness is seriously constipated ... they continue to cling to an old "birth"
any thoughts?

Just one thought - It is true.

:)
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby Meno_ » Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:28 pm

It's truth may be pregnant with blocks to its realization by denying the collective consciousness from coming true.

Speaking for my self, the admission of the significance of dreams, in times of great anxiety,
comes true.



Here is a sample: Last night I dreamt of cock roaches invading the area above my bed-headboard. They came through in large groups through a hole in the wall.


Then I went on line around 4 am, and found this forum. I thought of some interrelation of the dream,
with the topic at hand, with the thought that such
nexus may have some interest.

The cock roach exhibits three meanings according to an interpretation: filth, resilience, and farther flung meaning, such as the 'roach' of the marijuana stump.
This last one is interesting because I have been actively searching for a part time job, where testing for traces of 'grass' is part of the hiring process.

All three interpretations of the Dream are relevant here, and although no clear meaning can be related in the dream to a de ja vu experience, recollection of prior mental states can be applied to both.

In my state of anxiety, I believe, the collectively repressed or forgotten memory, may come true both ways, simultaneously, or singly. Not to be left out are farther out connections as Kafka's 'Metamorphosis' suggesting a more general idea.

That such psychic symbols, emerging out of the well ordered, rational world, uniting in variously overlapping areas of significance, point to the total inclusion of all symbols under the umbrella of the collective unconscious.

Finally, the last curative attempt of the collective is signified in the meaning in the marijuana roach symbolizing the vary last pleasurable, albeit unreal treatment of life, before that roach also burns off, bringing forth the extreme necessity of facing Reality.

For me, that reality subsists of letting go , a lifetime construction of the intentional unreal world of representations, and facing directly those which life forces me to face.

In a sense, then, de ja vu has a very wide net of bringing a major theme consisting of an inescapable collision with a reality, I have so long been holding back in bay.

Now, dealing with it, it's another story, and retreat at this juncture is not an option any longer.
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby encode_decode » Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:52 pm

Your post is interesting . . .
jerkey wrote:For me, that reality subsists of letting go , a lifetime construction of the intentional unreal world of representations, and facing directly those which life forces me to face.

In a sense, then, de ja vu has a very wide net of bringing a major theme consisting of an inescapable collision with a reality, I have so long been holding back in bay.

Now, dealing with it, it's another story, and retreat at this juncture is not an option any longer.

I find your writing profound in the sense of myself being able to find deeper and lateral meaning contained within. I will be reading your discourse a few times to fully grasp its nature.
I like your take on reality here as there seems to be a pragmatic theme to it but at the same time allowing yourself to flow with existence.
Your painting of déjà is worthy of further consideration on my part - it tells me more about the "Paradox of the sensed" that I present as the main theme hidden amongst the paragraphs of the original post. The inescapable collision with a reality seems to me worthwhile, bringing forth introspection regarding many paradoxes contained within.
Dealing with it is indeed another story as it would seem that your dream has collided with more than one reality - realities from earlier times.

jerkey wrote:That such psychic symbols, emerging out of the well ordered, rational world, uniting in variously overlapping areas of significance, point to the total inclusion of all symbols under the umbrella of the collective unconscious.

This makes me think regarding your nexus that it may hold insight across all mindful processes being able to collide with things we are not aware at any given time.

Thank you jerkey.

:D
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:17 pm

Jerkey ... for me ... your post is exciting ... some argue the journey from one to two is long and difficult ... Krishnamurti, after 60+ years of relentlessly attempting to share his understanding of life, died saying "nobody understands me". The journey from two to three is apparently much less difficult and shorter.

jerkey wrote:For me, that reality subsists of letting go , a lifetime construction of the intentional unreal world of representations, and facing directly those which life forces me to face.

In a sense, then, de ja vu has a very wide net of bringing a major theme consisting of an inescapable collision with a reality, I have so long been holding back in bay.

Now, dealing with it, it's another story, and retreat at this juncture is not an option any longer.


For me ... your last sentence is the most interesting. One of the people I shared my "experience" with ... almost 25 years ago ... responded as follows: ... paraphrasing

1) When one walks through the door ... when one crosses the threshold ... in fact, not in illusion ... there is no going back.

2) I'm surprised you have gotten this far without any help ... ergo: what's viewed as professional help.


My experiences in the past 25 years confirmed his comments ... I would restate his comments as follows:

1) You have entered 'liminal space' ... http://thoughtsofamisfit.weebly.com/liminal-space.html ... I'm not the author of the article.

2) Tread softly ... let patience and humility guide you.

3) Maintaining independence is imperative.
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:33 pm

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:Jerkey ... for me ... your post is exciting ... some argue the journey from one to two is long and difficult ... Krishnamurti, after 60+ years of relentlessly attempting to share his understanding of life, died saying "nobody understands me". The journey from two to three is apparently much less difficult and shorter.

I wonder if, Krishnamurti truly understood himself.
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby Meno_ » Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:57 pm

Funny another co-incidence / paradox, saw Khrishnamurti's last lecture, and didn't know he was dying of cancer , then got tapes, and the only thing that stood out was 'you've got to give it up', referring to sex.

Then met a guy immersed in a pool near his compound who says to me, ' see, you can't die', as he submerged and stayed there for what seemed like a very long time.

The rest-a blur.
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:01 am

Okay...let me take you through a journey through "liminal space".

After you give up sex...you can be a fool-ospher (I mean uh...philosopher) after you fully understand the concept of "liminal space".
Life is always changing...let me guide and walk you through that change.
Profound.
The other day, I smoked shrooms.
I was seeing colors. Stars. Almost like the Cosmos.

Do I get a PhD for this?
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby Meno_ » Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:07 am

You shoul'd have, , it may have made a positive differance.
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby Meno_ » Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:09 am

But just like a very wise critter gently placing her supple lips to my elongated ear whispered through the many formed canals therein: 'It was not meant to be'.
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:10 am

jerkey wrote:You shoul'd have, , it may have made a positive differance.


Maybe it would have made my words so profound...that noone could understand me. Quality=How many people can't understand you. I call it "jeans-us." The quintessence of Fool-osophy.
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby Meno_ » Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:15 am

Profound things are eclectic, poets and philosophers write volumes to casual readers, but it is sifting, for pearls which transmit to those who's ears bereft of the waxed redundancy blocking the write stuff.
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby encode_decode » Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:26 am

Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:Maybe it would have made my words so profound...that noone could understand me. Quality=How many people can't understand you. I call it "jeans-us." The quintessence of Fool-osophy.


:D

Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:After you give up sex...you can be a fool-ospher (I mean uh...philosopher) after you fully understand the concept of "liminal space".

I am curious about the concept of "liminal space" - could you give me a short description? Pleeeeease . . .
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:32 am

encode_decode wrote:
Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:Maybe it would have made my words so profound...that noone could understand me. Quality=How many people can't understand you. I call it "jeans-us." The quintessence of Fool-osophy.


:D

Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:After you give up sex...you can be a fool-ospher (I mean uh...philosopher) after you fully understand the concept of "liminal space".

I am curious about the concept of "liminal space" - could you give me a short description? Pleeeeease . . .


It was made by some "misfit". Don't ask..it's just some fool-hippie trying to do philosophy...It just sounds "deep" to the guy who made it...its just a page with no substance.
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby encode_decode » Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:36 am

@ Ultimate Philosophy 1001 - That sounds fair - So "liminal space" is just a fancy way of saying . . . . . something . . . . . yeah.

:-k
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:15 am

Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:
encode_decode wrote:
Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:Maybe it would have made my words so profound...that noone could understand me. Quality=How many people can't understand you. I call it "jeans-us." The quintessence of Fool-osophy.


:D

Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:After you give up sex...you can be a fool-ospher (I mean uh...philosopher) after you fully understand the concept of "liminal space".

I am curious about the concept of "liminal space" - could you give me a short description? Pleeeeease . . .


It was made by some "misfit". Don't ask..it's just some fool-hippie trying to do philosophy...It just sounds "deep" to the guy who made it...its just a page with no substance.


Trixie ... you surely are a GENIUS ... you truly understand the concept of "Liminal Space".

It is exactly as you described it ... "It's just a page with no substance" ergo: a blanke page ... full of potential.

I have lots I want to share with you ... no time now ... gotta go to the local market and observe life ... in action. :D
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:04 am

First a report on my visit to the local market.

Lest I be accused of posting "chat" in the philosophy forum let me say this ...

Desktop philosophers ... ergo: philosophers who do not spend considerable time observing life in action ... produce illusions of philosophy ... far removed from actual life.

Visiting the local market has become a hobby ... I go 4-5 times a week ... always a different location though with some overlap in the congregation.

Local markets in rural China provide a keen observer with a peek into antiquity ... so much has never changed.

Buyers and sellers ... thieves/cheats and honest folk. Thieves/cheats on both sides ... ergo: among the buyers as well as among the sellers. Though my guess is the majority are honest folk. I suspect this population distribution holds true for all congregations of peoples every where and is consistent through time and space in the history of humanity.

The full spectrum of human life is also present ... from infants to the very elderly ... truly a rich panorama of humanity.

Let me share a couple of experiences:

1) As a buyer I often attempt to pay more than the asking price (for vegetables) ... not out of generosity ... rather out of selfishness. Small denominations of Chinese currency are a nuisance to carry around. My over payment varies from one and a half cents to fifteen cents(Cdn $) Almost always the seller vigorously refuses my offer ... not because the seller doesn't like money. The look on his/her face says ... I don't want your charity ... somehow taking money that he/she feels he/she has not earned somehow stains/tarnishes/contaminates their personal dignity/pride.

2) As a seller ... yes I have tried selling vegetables ... my wife grew ... on a street market where the sellers were all peasants. My wife gave me clear instructions for the Chinese language required. In English ... "One bunch for 2 RMB". I intentionally reversed the Chinese to say ... "Two bunches for one RMB". My wife's vegetables sold out in no time ... the smiles, laughs and various other kinds of body language made it a very rich experience. One of those observations of what it means to be human that money can't buy. PS ... and my wife wasn't even angry at me for her losses.
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby encode_decode » Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:45 am

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:Lest I be accused of posting "chat" in the philosophy forum let me say this ...

Chat is a good thing.

:D
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:53 am

Let me continue my thoughts in this OP ... but ... borrow a very recent Trixie quote from another OP.

Society needs to obey me and I should be made supreme leader of society.


Trixie what you say may be your destiny ... or if not the supreme leader of society ... at the very least a substantial BEACON ... ergo: a fire or light set up in a high or prominent position as a warning, signal.

A service to humanity that may help prevent humanity from perishing on the rocks of the shore they have been trying to reach since time immemorial.

IMO a 'beacon' ... rather than a 'leader' ... is the better choice.

Food for thought
1) Hyper sensitive people ... a characteristic/trait of some of history's greatest leaders ... is both a tremendous gift and a tremendous curse. First the curse ... hyper sensitive people too often permit the fringe lunatics (can't think of a kinder word at the moment) to get under their skin ... morph into parasites and vampires ... and proceed to suck the qi ... chi ... Chinese term for life's energy ... out of them. Leaving them a hollow shell of their former selves.

2) The gift ... hyper sensitive people are like a magnet for super 'knowledge' ... wisdom.

3) The leader/follower ... teacher/student ... guru/devotee communities eventually ... yet inevitably ... the leader/teacher/guru are suffocated and killed ... not literally of course. How so? The essence of community demands interactions among members of the community ... leader/teacher/guru included. These interactions inevitably spawn inter dependencies ... that include the leader/teacher/guru. Thus the "independence" of the leader/teacher/guru is eventually suffocated to death. Independence is imperative.

4) The keen observer can see this in the Jesus story. The 'message' of Jesus was suffocated to death by his disciples ... in particular Saul of Tarsus ... within decades of his death.

5) The keen observer can see this in the Socrates story. Socrate's most important message was suffocated to death by Plato and subsequent adherents to Plato's work. What was Socrate's most important message ... "The unexamined life is not worth living" Socrate's wasn't talking about the big picture ... what is the meaning/purpose of human life ... he was talking about the micro picture ... each individual human life. And he was rather dramatic with his words "is not worth living" ... how much despair, frustration, anger, hostility and so on ... stems from not examining your life ... your individual and personal life.

6) The keen observer can see this is the Buddha story. The Buddha counselled his followers ... do not cling to my coat tails ... if your personal experience does not confirm my words ... ignore my words. How much of subsequent Buddhism dwelt solely on his words?

7) The keen observer can see this in the Lao Tzu/Confucius story. Confucius entertained followers/students/diciples ... Lao Tzu did not. Lao Tzu rebuked Confucius for his arrogance. Lao Tzu opted for voluntary exile to preserve his "independence". The message of Confucius suffered the same fate as the message of Jesus.
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby encode_decode » Wed Mar 29, 2017 5:59 am

@ pilgrim-seeker_tom - Very interesting food for thought that you offer.

The constant being enables one to see the outward manifestations.
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby encode_decode » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:04 am

Laozi wrote:THE highest form of goodness is like water.
Water knows how to benefit all things without striving with them.
It stays in places loathed by all men.
Therefore, it comes near the Tao.

In choosing your dwelling, know how to keep to the ground.
In cultivating your mind, know how to dive in the hidden deeps.
In dealing with others, know how to be gentle and kind.
In speaking, know how to keep your words.
In governing, know how to maintain order.
In transacting business, know how to be efficient.
In making a move, know how to choose the right moment.

If you do not strive with others,
You will be free from blame.
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:47 pm

encode_decode wrote:@ pilgrim-seeker_tom - Very interesting food for thought that you offer.

The constant being enables one to see the outward manifestations.


Chapter one is so rich ... such subtle profundity ... I still struggle to grasp it's meaning.

In my translation they use the terms "Being Without Form" and "Beings Within Form"

Similarly it is always from the Being -within-form
That the manifestation of the Dao can be perceived.


Have you listened to these lectures ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drjprSUDMiM ... can't vouch for the English captions.
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:25 pm

encode_decode wrote:
Laozi wrote:THE highest form of goodness is like water.
Water knows how to benefit all things without striving with them.
It stays in places loathed by all men.
Therefore, it comes near the Tao.

In choosing your dwelling, know how to keep to the ground.
In cultivating your mind, know how to dive in the hidden deeps.
In dealing with others, know how to be gentle and kind.
In speaking, know how to keep your words.
In governing, know how to maintain order.
In transacting business, know how to be efficient.
In making a move, know how to choose the right moment.

If you do not strive with others,
You will be free from blame.


Let me share the last two lines according to the translation in my book:

Since he does not compete,
He is free from any fault


The "he" refers to the best man ... ergo: the best person

The above statement is antithetical to the world we live in. The statement implies there are few ... if any ... best persons in the world ... competition is pervasive ... in our schools ... in our churches ... in our political systems ... in commerce and so on.

Though I must share that my local market observations indicate very little competition among the peasant vendors ... and many sell the same stuff ... seems they are content to let the buyers move about as they wish and touch and smell whatever they wish ... it really is quite extraordinary.

Surely serious thinkers can visualize the merit of a world with little or no competition. Lazy thinkers would suggest in the absence of competition we would have little or no progress in any discipline ... hogwash!!
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:39 pm

IMO Amorphos is a serious thinker ... he wrote in another OP
Take away the roads, then people cannot go there

What else is there to say? In a causal universe people become criminals and then often get worse, yet if the same individual were given an alternate route, they wouldn’t have gone down that road in the first place.

All ‘evil’ and all crime, are wrong roads and not wrong people.


How many roads would be closed if competition was virtually eliminated?
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