My entire philosophy in the least words

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Re: My entire philosophy in the least words

Postby Ecmandu » Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:11 pm

Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:You aren't listening at all. Signs and symtpoms of your low empathy.

My thing was, if we have magic powers to create pzombie utopias, why are we on this shithole in the first place? Think about the paradox of it also, if this world isn't already a Pzombie land, that means everyone is conscious, which means consciousness must cycle through every miserable wretch in this world before it escapes it. Also it means that consciousness will continue to cycle until every creature on this world is dead unless the consciousness escapes the gravitational pull of earth.

Second, why the hell would an asshole who gets sex go to hell for eternity? Seems like an injustice. Im well aware of how the process works, I know how females think, a guy comes on to you, and you don't really want to hurt his feelings, but you don't really want to have sex with him either, so he keeps trying and being more assholish and eventually you cave in to his aggressive demands. Im well aware of how it works, still why would they go to hell for eternity for such a minor crime?


In order to get somewhere else as a being, you must grow ... It's impossible to exist and not grow, just like it's impossible to exist and not have otherness.

Not really a paradox there.

As far as hell is concerned... Aggressiveness getting sex causes all the crap people complain about, you become a hypocrite and are sent to hell
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Re: My entire philosophy in the least words

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:13 pm

A desperate man being aggressive gets him hell? But a woman denying sex to good people doesn't get her hell? Seems lopsided and sexist.

And you are still ignoring my question, I wasn't talking about personal growth, I was talking about consciousness having to either cycle through all sentient lifeforms in the past and future, or leave earths gravity in order to go to other worlds.
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Re: My entire philosophy in the least words

Postby Ecmandu » Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:22 pm

Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:A desperate man being aggressive gets him hell? But a woman denying sex to good people doesn't get her hell? Seems lopsided and sexist.

And you are still ignoring my question, I wasn't talking about personal growth, I was talking about consciousness having to either cycle through all sentient lifeforms in the past and future, or leave earths gravity in order to go to other worlds.


Yes, because the biggest complaint men have is that only assholes get sex. If you send or let a female hell, you become a hypocrite and go to hell.

It's called the female blackmail system for a reason silly!!

Bah! You can't cycle through an Infinite number beings... And if you did, there'd be no you, just them!
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Re: My entire philosophy in the least words

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:24 pm

The main target here, is personal happiness and fulfillment.

Shouldn't the focus be on the direct deniers of personal happiness, rather than hating some lucky guys who one the lottery? You know who the direct deniers of personal happiness are.

Infinity in this regard, is a temporal constant. Since you are an infinite being, you can cycle through an infinite number of beings, it just takes time. Because once you are done through 100 million lives, 10 million more are born. That is, unless you either escape from the gravity of earth, or stop the cycles of birth. You know what I mean by "stop the cycles of birth." It's not a real paradox actually.
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Re: My entire philosophy in the least words

Postby gib » Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:59 pm

Ecmandu wrote:Why should someone who's old, fat and ugly... Just give up on sexual feelings just to fit in with society?


I don't know. Why don't you ask them? Point is, it's a choice people make in real life, and presumably it makes them happy to do so (maybe it makes them feel closer to God, or something). It's a choice that doesn't hurt anybody, not even themselves.

Ecmandu wrote:Does giving up on a dream really make someone happier? What about the additional dream of not even being old, fat and ugly?? I think someone who has a choice, and still chooses old, fat and ugly, just likes to piss people off! To get a reaction (negative connotation) from people, revolsion.


Now you're presuming to know how people feel, the motives behind their choices.

I think you're barking up the wrong tree, you're making an argument you don't need to make (i.e. you're shooting yourself in the foot). I think all you really need to argue, if I understand your ultimate objective, is that this world sucks and that if we had the power to make any of our wishes immediately come true, with 0 effort, that would clearly be the right choice. I don't think you need to argue that literally every move we make ends up causing more harm than good, just that this world sucks in general and it's never gonna be perfect, and that your efforts to create a zombie universe and, once successful, show us all how it's done will benefit us all. I think you'd be far more likely to get support--at least on the point that this world sucks--if you just stuck to that in your argument... so it would benefit you, not just me, to let go of this particular point about every single move we make causing more harm than good.

^ That is, at least if your goal is to argue that our best option is to try to create zombie universes, or at least to support you in your goal to do so. If you're really just angry at the world for how it's treated you, and your agenda is to cast it all as evil so as to feel justified in flipping it the finger and rejecting it, then I can understand why the general "this world sucks" approach doesn't work for you.

Ecmandu wrote:Well... For body cohabitors; some may like picking and eating nose stuff as one of their favorite activities in life... <-- Wow, that's gotta be a rare breed. So to use tissue or handkerchief pisses them off greatly! If you choose to appease them, you are pissed off... This is all called compromise - and not very acceptable when you think about it.


So now blowing my nose is evil? What if I do it in private?

Really, Ecmandu, let it go. ^ This kind of argument only makes you look foolish. Next you're gonna tell me breathing is evil because it oppresses anti-breathing victims.

Ecmandu wrote:As for your stance against everyone being guilty to be defined as evil who defends this type of world system, or doesn't realize this truth.

I think people who don't realize this truth are evil oriented. I mean, it's so obvious to the good. It's like a serial killer who doesn't understand why people are so mad at them!!! It cannot occur to them!! But they are still evil!!!


Listen to yourself--you're saying that those who don't know that creating zombie universes are possible are evil; that people who are trying to make a difference in the world, trying to make it a better place--make this world a better place--are evil. I said before that this was all relative. Yes, if you had the option to choose between this world and a perfect world, choosing this world would be questionable (I think it would still depend on one's motives and reasons, etc.)--but we are making choices every day that make this world better than it could be--for example, I used to sponsor a child in Africa until I started becoming strapped for cash; now I'm a bit more financially secure so I'm looking back into sponsoring a child (preferably the same one). Now according to you, this makes me evil because the money I'd be giving that child to go to school is money that 1) some other child doesn't get, thereby harming him/her, and 2) money that I have to give up, thereby harming myself. Why is this evil? Well, Ecmandu says, in a perfect zombie universe, you could give everybody infinite dollars with the wave of a magic wand (in fact, since they're zombies, you wouldn't have to give them anything), and since I'm choosing to sponsor a child (just one) instead of looking into the art of zombie universe creating, I'm evil. But in all fairness, I think what you have to consider is: am I making the right choice relative to not sponsoring a child at all?--i.e. chosing to make this world one in which at least this one child gets sponsored instead of a world in which he/she doesn't?

Ecmandu wrote:As far as dissatisfaction goes...

Maybe someone writes a philosophic zombie world for themselves that has elements of dissatisfaction because they enjoy it somehow. At least it doesn't become another's dissatisfaction who doesn't want that!!


Yes, that I can agree with.

Ecmandu wrote:As far as the ease of construction...

I work on it every day, but I'm just one person ...

I can guarantee you that if 7 billion people understood the problem and looked for escape, we'd figure it out really quick!

I've seen more amazing miracles (most of them hells!!) than I have fingers...

I know for a fact that if you get 7 billion people to say, "this is complete bullshit for this reason and completely unacceptable". That we will actually move to a new plane of existence.


Perhaps you're right--I'm not one to say--but I know that this demands convincing, and convincing demands evidence and demonstration. I'm guessing the reason most people reject you and your ideas is that it sounds like a bunch of hocus-pocus mumbo-jumbo, and we're biased towards rejecting and mocking that sort of stuff. But if you could show the world how the creation of zombie universe is done, that would go a long way towards changing people's minds.

Ecmandu wrote:
Ultimate Philosophie 1001 wrote:I said it before and I said it again, I dont want to die and be reborn a happy person who eat-meat, I want to be born a tofu vegetarian who is unhappy, can't stand happy people who torture animals. I want to blow off cruella devilles head with a 12 gauge shotgun then rape her dead corpse.


And you can do all of that in a philosophic zombie universe without bothering anyone else.

You can make every plant and animal a philosophic zombie... You can make all the reincarnation sequences philosophic zombies, you can make cosmic consciousness a philosophic zombie.


On this note, I have another question: in philosophy, a pzombie is typically defined as a person who's exactly physically identical--particle for particle--to a real conscious, sentient human being. That being said, one should expect exactly the same behavior from a pzombie as from a real person. If you shoot a pzombie in the head and rape their corpse, you'll still go to jail.

Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:Why would I want to marry a p-zombie? Im sure there are others who want to be hot lesbians with me.


Yeah, good point. Part of the joy of making love to a girl is knowing that she's getting off with me. If all there was was just the physical act of moaning and screaming and writhing, I'd probably just get ear plugs. But in real life, that's a signal to me that she's actually experiencing extreme physical pleasure, extreme physical pleasure that I'm giving her with my (hugely massive) cock (I mean, it's massive).

In a pzombie universe, that would be missing... and I'd miss it.

Which brings up another point: you're talking about all the harm and pain we cause to others, but there's no mention of the pleasure. It's true that in a zombie universe, we wouldn't have to worry about harming anyone, but we'd also be giving up pleasing others, making them happy. Isn't that sort of a loss?

Which bring up another point--if we're so evil for not rejecting this world because it's theoretically possible to choose a zombie universe instead, then aren't you evil, Ecmandu, for not choosing a "pleasure" universe--i.e. a universe in which sentient beings experience only pleasure? And be sure to create a pleasure universe in which there an infinite beings who experience infinite pleasure for all eternity--otherwise you're evil (and then talk to James about orders of infinity).
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It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
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Re: My entire philosophy in the least words

Postby Ecmandu » Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:35 am

Gib!

I'm a bit busy for awhile, but just read your reply and am elated you understand as much as you do...

Be back later
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Re: My entire philosophy in the least words

Postby Ecmandu » Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:48 am

Oh, what the hell... I have time for a quick answer

I got a parsimonious post in my head!

Philosophic zombie are behavioral signatures decoupled from consciousness signatures. These behavioral signatures can be exact or modulated to specification.

------

I repeat: someone not realizing the inherent evil of this world is evil in the same way it never occurs to a serial killer that they are doing anything wrong.

(Btw) there are beings that dislike breathing, even humans!! - it kills microbes, bugs etc... Sometimes it's just preference though!!)

And thirdly and lastly...

What's more important to you in having sex??

The joy of knowing everyone who exists is happy, or just that woman at that time? I would go so far to say that making that trade off for anyone is sexual dysfunction - evil
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Re: My entire philosophy in the least words

Postby gib » Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:33 am

Ecmandu wrote:Philosophic zombie are behavioral signatures decoupled from consciousness signatures. These behavioral signatures can be exact or modulated to specification.


I take this to mean you can determine the exact structural configuration of the zombie's physical constitution--right down to each molecule--setting their positions, their momentums, the type of particle, etc. You're essentially saying we should be able to not only create a zombie universe, but to be able to configure it such that you can kill people without the consequence of going to jail.

If you're a determinist, that's a pretty tall order. You'd have to somehow calculate in your head what the exact positions, momentums, and types of every single particle in the universe needs to be such as to have it that way--not only that, but to have it so that nothing bad ever happens to you (for example, not only a universe in which you can get away with murder, but in which no one ever tries to murder you, or if they did something would stop them, and also a universe in which you don't catch a disease or get into an accident, in which you never stubbed your toe, or got locked out of your house in the cold, or spilled coffee on yourself, or lost your glasses, or saw a bad movie, etc., etc., etc.). Is such a universe even possible? Is there such a configuration of particles in which you can live a full life without anything bad ever happening to you? How would you even have the mental capacity to calculate that?

Ecmandu wrote:I repeat: someone not realizing the inherent evil of this world is evil in the same way it never occurs to a serial killer that they are doing anything wrong.


Well, first, serial killers very rarely fail to realize they're hurting people; they may feel their actions are morally justified, but that's by way of disconnecting the hurt they cause others from the moral implications (which ILP members do all the time). Second, serial killers still have a choice. They can refrain from murder. The kind of harm you're talking about, however, is (it would seem) a universal law--we can't even act without harming another person according to you. You're the only person I've met who thinks creating zombie universes as an alternative is possible. Most people don't understand that or agree with it, and therefore try the next best thing: attempt to make this world better by whatever measure they can. <-- I think doing the best you can with what you think is possible, or what you think is most feasible, is redeeming enough.

Ecmandu wrote:
gib wrote:Next you're gonna tell me breathing is evil because it oppresses anti-breathing victims.

Btw) there are beings that dislike breathing, even humans!! - it kills microbes, bugs etc... Sometimes it's just preference though!!)


Wow, and I thought I was just being sarcastic.

Ecmandu wrote:What's more important to you in having sex??

The joy of knowing everyone who exists is happy, or just that woman at that time? I would go so far to say that making that trade off for anyone is sexual dysfunction - evil


If it was a choice between having great sex with a beautiful woman, knowing she enjoyed it just as much as I did, and making everyone in the world happy, I would choose the latter. <-- It's a moral choice, and an obvious one. But I'm just saying: I don't think living amongst zombie's is the happiest life I can imagine having. Sometimes you want to know someone besides you feels something.

^ In fact, I'm not so sure I could be happy in a zombie universe... at all. I think *maybe* I'd eventually become depressed. I think most people would. <-- Which brings up the point: sure, there are consequences to our actions, and sometimes our actions cause harm to others--advertently or inadvertently, knowingly or unknowingly--but you seem to be ignoring the fact that our actions can have a lot of good effects on people as well--like buying someone a present on their birthday--maybe even the good outweighs the harm.
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It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
- surreptitious75

The rating of rationality can be higher and always is higher than the person trying to be rational. Rationality is less emotional than the person delivering it.
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Re: My entire philosophy in the least words

Postby Ecmandu » Sat Feb 25, 2017 3:58 pm

Yes, it takes precision.

The deal with zombie universes is that you make it yourself, from your highest being in the collective consciousness of the cosmos. You can perform a super-task! You can even make it so you believe they are real if you want. You can set the difficulty level wherever you want. Just like writing a really complex video game and then stepping into it.

You also have the option of pulling up zombie copies of other people's zombie universes and interacting with or simply viewing your loved ones and how they enjoy your zombie in their universe.

Building a zombie universe requires work. Fortunately for us, it only takes simple algorithms to output infinite or complex worlds. It's reductive. We don't need an infinite amount of work to set a system that starts counting all the counting numbers. Just a power source and a plus 1 algorithm.

People may think the power source is the issue...

However, the universe is a perpetual motion machine.

I believe in doing good while here.

Just remember, whether you're happy or tormented, many people in this world will be upset or happy that you are either. This world system is a catch 22.
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Re: My entire philosophy in the least words

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:05 pm

Giblets has a couple valid points.

If there was a button to make Earth into a utopia where animals dont get butchered and everybody gets laid, I'd say half the population would push it, the other half are evil cunts that deserve to die and go to hell.

But thing is, there is no such button. Even saints take breaks and vacations because they know its impossible to save everyone. Saving someone is better than saving noone.

Anyhoo, about the pzombie universe, there would be no need to murder, because it would be a utopia where everyone gets laid, murder and crime only exists because of sexual stratification.

My thing is, I don't have faith P-Zombie utopia universes are actually possible, because if is possible, why are we not in one now?
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Re: My entire philosophy in the least words

Postby Ecmandu » Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:11 pm

Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:Giblets has a couple valid points.

If there was a button to make Earth into a utopia where animals dont get butchered and everybody gets laid, I'd say half the population would push it, the other half are evil cunts that deserve to die and go to hell.

But thing is, there is no such button. Even saints take breaks and vacations because they know its impossible to save everyone. Saving someone is better than saving noone.

Anyhoo, about the pzombie universe, there would be no need to murder, because it would be a utopia where everyone gets laid, murder and crime only exists because of sexual stratification.

My thing is, I don't have faith P-Zombie utopia universes are actually possible, because if is possible, why are we not in one now?


I'm working on it Trixie. My best guess is that in order to live, you have to grow, and PZ universes are our butterfly so to speak.
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Re: My entire philosophy in the least words

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:12 pm

thing is, in a 100% pzombie universe wed be utterly alone, but unaware we are alone, noone to share in our happiness, we'd have fake wives but not know they were fake... it would be a grand tragedy we would be unable to comprehend, more advanced than even shakespeare.
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Re: My entire philosophy in the least words

Postby Ecmandu » Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:19 pm

Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:thing is, in a 100% pzombie universe wed be utterly alone, but unaware we are alone, noone to share in our happiness, we'd have fake wives but not know they were fake... it would be a grand tragedy we would be unable to comprehend, more advanced than even shakespeare.


Let's hypothesize for a moment a 6th dimension...

5th dimension is that time itself is an object, and for a 6th, space. If you were one of these beings who instantly does life viewings ... Would you rather see happy lives or tormented lives? If you were all knowing??

People can get to know you just fine in PZ universes, and you can get to know them as well... I don't see what the issue is here.

And for higher dimensional beings, which you may be on some level, or decide to be... Wouldn't you rather know happy beings ??
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Re: My entire philosophy in the least words

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:21 pm

My head is too grounded in reality, and I'm not sure how to imagine time as an object. Can you a draw a picture of it for me please?
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Re: My entire philosophy in the least words

Postby Ecmandu » Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:27 pm

Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:My head is too grounded in reality, and I'm not sure how to imagine time as an object. Can you a draw a picture of it for me please?


Watch the movie "Arrival"... It just came out
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Re: My entire philosophy in the least words

Postby gib » Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:28 pm

Ecmandu wrote:You can even make it so you believe they are real if you want.


Oh, I see. How then do you know you're not in one of your own zombie universes right now?
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It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
- surreptitious75

The rating of rationality can be higher and always is higher than the person trying to be rational. Rationality is less emotional than the person delivering it.
- encode_decode
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Re: My entire philosophy in the least words

Postby Ecmandu » Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:30 pm

gib wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:You can even make it so you believe they are real if you want.


Oh, I see. How then do you know you're not in one of your own zombie universes right now?


I'm pretty sure I would have put a fail safe in it by now!

:)
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