Your meaning of life

Philosophy Forums Philosophy
41

If I knew that a far better place awaits me when I die then I’d want to die as soon as possible. In this case, count those who die at childbirth as lucky. But if this were true, wouldn’t it be best not to have been born at all? Wouldn’t it be better to go from nothingness directly to eternal bliss and skip the nasty bit here on Earth altogether?

If I knew that a far worse place awaits me after I die then I wouldn’t want to die at all. In this case, count those who live to an old age as lucky. But even a life of a hundred years here pales infinitesimally when compared to the expected eternity of suffering. My life here would serve only to briefly keep the wolves from my throat. But if this were true, wouldn’t it have been better to have remained forever as nothingness?

In the first case we curse our life on Earth. In the second case we curse our very existence. In either case an alternative situation would have been be preferable to my having found myself alive this morning.

We could go on to suggest further possibilities. Christians tell us that this life is the examination required to determines the nature of our next existence. Religions also tell us that the quality of our life in this world is the result of our behavior in past lives (for example, one is born with a harelip as a punishment for past sins). There is no end to the number of such possible conjectures.

However, the conjecture I’ve chosen is unique among the others in that it follows not from my imagination, but from my experience. I have no evidence for an existence before or beyond this world. My conjecture asserts that my birth and death delimits all that I have been or ever shall be. What I suspect is true has nothing to do with what I wish were true. I wish that mosquitoes did not exist. I wish that I would never die. But why stop there? I might as well wish that I were God. The simple fact is that my most fervent wishing: won’t make mosquitoes go away, won’t make me immortal, and won’t make me God. We have to be very careful not to let our wishes dictate our beliefs.

Humans appear with a set of lungs, a heart, etc. I didn’t have to manufacture my own lungs nor did I have to learn to operate my heart. As Sartre explained, “My existence preceded my essence.” I awoke to discover my body already functioning. I was given a body, but whatever life I am to have I must make for myself. If I desire meaning, I shall have to create it. Meaning was not pre-packaged and delivered to me along with my kidneys.

FrozenViolet, you say that there isn’t much point to living if there is nothing after death. I wonder what is it about having a unique life, delimited between two points of time and constrained to a specific region of space that precludes your finding a point to it? My life is nothing to the Universe, yet it’s everything to me. I realize that outside of my life there’s no point to my life. Inside your head for example, would be a pitifully poor place for my meaning of life to reside. That meaning is created rather than found explains why your meaning is located inside your head rather than mine.

Is love pointless? Is it “better to have loved and lost, than never to have loved at all,” or is finite love just a silly, pointless, and ephemeral emotion? The Universe could care less if you love a Frog or a Prince. But why am I asking how the Universe “feels” about your love? What would it matter to you if the Universe cared one way or the other about what you feel? Likewise, wouldn’t another person’s heart be quite a pitifully poor place to find your own love? That love is created rather than found explains why your love is located inside your heart rather than mine.

Love, happiness, and meaning are in no way bequeathed or assured to us. We either create them for ourselves, or we live and die: unloved, unhappy, and without meaning. I’ve created a good measure of love, happiness, and meaning in my life. But my love is not your love, my happiness is not your happiness, and my meaning is not your meaning. We must each create for ourselves that which we value the most in this world.

You don’t love a woman because she is beautiful; she is beautiful because you love her.

Michael

42

Well for one I honestly believe that there is a such thing as meaningless. That a life could have no purpose. I’d hate to dismiss that idea so readily just because you offer some evidence that everything could have a purpose. This is probably because logically to me everything in life suggests that there is no purpose. I’m probably just not looking hard enough. But simple broad explanation is often preferable to a complex detailed one as I said already in my next paragraph.

Another thing I don’t like the idea that experience is the meaning to life. It’s too simple and yet too broad. It’s like saying the meaning of life is to live. Which I agree to but it’s too simple. I believe there should be more. It stems from my belief that the majority of life is meaningless unless collectively accounted. I don’t like the idea of a simple life. I’m impatient and eager for progression on all fronts and think that cooperation amongst the people is the essential key to a better world. I guess it’s more of a we could be doing so much better mind set. Not much of a we are all pointless but we are all not up to par.

I’m wondering more… I guess why we desire to live. Biological factors that shape our life. Why are they there. Not that this was what I was originally trying to ask but it’s the effect that has come out of the discussion.

Now I feel I’m using all the wrong words and that I’m going to make an ass of myself but hey it’s all in good fun.

43

CBA,

Okay, why and explain why in detail.

CBA stated:

So why do you think there is life?

CBA stated:

I would hate it if you dismissed the idea as well, my intention was never to make people dismiss the idea that life has no purpose, like I said; everything has a purpose, there is a purpose to you believing that life has no purpose (oops - I didn’t mean that to force my opinion of purpose being in life but that’s how the words came out)

CBA stated:

Very interesting, I would be interested in hearing the logic behind there not being a purpose to life. I am not trying to be sarcastic, instead I am completely honest - it’s funny how complete honesty appears as sarcasm so often in life.

CBA stated:

I think you are correct in stating that you are not looking hard enough, if you had, you would have pages and pages of info to contradict what I am saying. Yes, the simple explanation has been preferable to a complex one, it’s called Okham’s Razor. Although, like you many others use it in the wrong context. Okham’s Razor refers to a person(s) who is trying to figure something out; gets all the information; does all the experiments; does all the studies; learns everything about the thing that he’she possibly can, and in the end they come to two answers - one is a simple one and the other is a complex one…the simple one usually is the more correct one. You said yourself that I provided some evidence, you view that there is no purpose in life is fine as an opinion, but why not try to find some further info. It might only take you a few minutes if you go to a search engine and type in “No Purpose To Life”, check out some website quickly and have a read. Your view stands as more simpler only because you fail to give me info on yours, I gave you info on mine, hence it looks more complicated. Get some info, explain away, and after we are both explaining our views to our hearts content and your view is still simple; I just may accept your view over mine. I say ‘may’ because simpler is usually better, not always; hence I will use you logic and reason to see if there is any reason to believe that my view is somehow outside of Okham’s razor’s influence.

CBA stated:

I agree, sometimes I feel like coming on the message board and criticising my own post; so that we could skip all the preliminaries and get down into discussing and figuring something out using the great minds of this board. But I think that if I criticised my own post, people would think I was *coo *coo. Anyway, I believe me saying that experience is the point of life isn’t really saying anything. Like you say You/I agree but it’s too simple. I too believe there should be more, the problem lies in finding a definition that can be attributed to ALL people - what can we attribute to ALL people other than experience? Breathing? Crying? Air? Consciousness? But what can we say about these things in order to come to an understanding of life (for all)? [From Matrix] …Need a little help!

CBA stated:

Okay, so life as an individual has no meaning, but as a collective we as human beings have meaning? Why can’t we attribute the general meaning to each individual? I am weary this discussion will lead to communism.

CBA stated:

But you said that your view was a simple one and that is why you don’t want to drop it. Wouldn’t your idea of a life that is meaningless be more simple (which you said) than my idea that life is experience? I’m not trying to contradict you here, just trying to make sure I understand exactly what you mean.

CBA stated:

This much I gathered from everything prior to this in your post, but I still don’t understand how the meaning of one person’s life has no meaning, but we together do.

What’s your take?

44

My explanation is relatively simple so I’m going to assume that it may be dissapointing. :blush:

I guess it’s a paradox. There is a meaning to things that are meaningless. There is was a meaning to the creation of the idea of meaningless. But I mean more the idea that the present will have no effect on the future as meaningless. The idea that someone does have an effect on the future but making it so insignificant that it wouldn’t mattter in a decade. Theres the theory that if you step on a bug in the past it will change the future. But I’d rather believe that if you stepped on the bug the change would be so extremely small. So small that eventually it would get smaller and smaller until if measured on a numerical scale would be something like .000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001. Eventually it would be totally overlooked and people would consider it meaningless in effect to their life. Take swords. They are meaningless in battle today. The invention of a sword to one person is the most important and lead to the development of guns in a way. But to another person we can deal without them. They have no effect on modern society except for a an economical or collective item.

Or possibly the idea that your neighbor lives next to you but you may never encounter him. Meaningless more on a individual level. The person never has any effect on your life. You go day by day without even realizing that he lives there. To you he’s meaningless. Another example. I’ve seen no change from 9/11 (I live in New York). Besides the over production of flags and flags outside if no one told me then I wouldn’t realize. I could easily assume that people decided to leave their flag outside or were too lazy to bring it back in. If I hadn’t been in school that day then I probably wouldn’t have known about it.

The world has got so many obsticals in its way that I don’t see us coming out of them alive. The death of humanity seems inevitable. In that case it’s easy for me to assume that humanity is meaningless. The sun decaying, the collision with adromeda, asteroids, the over population and lack of space to produce resources. What would my life being I’m living a couple billion years away from those things and with my numerical example above in mind… How would my life have any effect on anything. It’s said that eventually all life as we know it materialistic life will eventually go exstinct. After we die species will emerge and I’ve seen comparrisons to things that look like the ghosts or whatever they were from final fantasy.

No not communism. The idea that collectively everyone has a purpose. As a whole we can have an effect on society. But if I goof off today all day it won’t have an effect on the world. If everyone does then it will have a huge impact on life.

I don’t like a simple life as in living an average life. Meaningless or not I’d hate to go out and do nothing and not enjoy what life has to offer. Simple in the sense of experiences. I don’t know how much I’m contradicting myself right now. I’m just typing what I’m thinking. If I contradict myself then that’s my fault for not going back and checking that I’m agreeing with what I was thinking the last time I posted.

45

CBA,
Let’s see if I can put some meaning/purpose in your life…

CBA stated:

[From Terminator] : “Just think, in a hundred years; who’s gonna care?”

It isn’t a coincedance that the line was used in the movie (I hope you have seen it). It isn’t a coincedance Sarah Connor was one of those people that would fit perfectly into one of your examples of a person that really didn’t make any kind of difference and in a hundred years no one would even remember anything about her. Yet, Sarah Connor who considered herself to be a lousy representative of the human race, even thought she would be a bad mother, and couldn’t contemplate how she was the mother of this great hero (she even said she couldn’t balance her check book) still came out and had one of the most revolutionary purposes/meanings that a person could ask for. This last sentence can be understood to refer to both Sarah Connor (the character in the movie) or as Linda Hamilton (meaning she got to play such an important role that changed peoples view on the world - specifically technology).

The circle of life, I hope you have heard of it in biology class, only works because of each part. Something as small as a rat, going extinct as a species would have huge consequences. I know what your going to say, but Magius my example was of a single bug being squashed. Well imagine just one single rat. Now imagine one person that has had a huge impact on our way of life, whether you choose Einstein, Roosevelt, Hitler, Newton, Lincoln, Fuller, or anyone else. Now imagine one of these guys to be walking through a park prior to doing all their wonderful things and getting bitten by this rat which poisons them and they die. Now, each one of the guys has impacted our way of life in a way that isn’t even comprehensible - the plathora of magazines, books, essays that they have appeared in. Commericals that were made on something they said or did or made. Their thoughts that a person read and sprouted yet another thought to a person that once again bettered man kind. And so on and so on. This series of life altering events would be stopped by a single…rat.

But let’s go even more insignificant, like a single atom. Can you stop a single atom? Nope. Newton (I believe) once said, that if someone shows him a spot in the universe that is completely still, then he will move the Earth in any direction we ask of him. So every single atom is important. What if a single atom dies (decay)? Well, imagine the brain, it’s complex parts that have kept the greatest of scholars with the most bewildering enigma of all time, even a single atom of the brain removed could mean a thousand memories lost.

Swords, ah well, swords have great meaning if not for what can be done with them, but for what was done with them. More importantly, what they stand for. The sword has caused many evils and we hope even more good deeds. It is because of the sword that many countries in Europe are in the locations or that they even exist today (set in the Medieval Times).

CBA stated:

You seem to have switch (slightly) the context here, for no longer is the meaning one of general meaning or lack of it, but now it is to an individual. But just because someone apparently has no effect on my life that doesn’t mean that they don’t have a meaning or a purpose. Moreover, it doesn’t mean that they don’t have an effect on my life. Try to imagine the hundreds of thousands of people that are responsible for the things you see and use each day, do you know any of them? Most of them you may not even ever hear of throughout your entire life time. But they may have had the biggest effect on your life of all. If your occupation as a mechanic makes you deal with a myriad number of tools and one of them is badly designed, an accident happens and you die because of and while using this tool - would you not say that the person who designed it, and the tool itself has had a huge impact on your life? Now imagine all the other parts that went into making that tool, the different companies, the labour workers, and imagine all the machine that helped make that tool and the inventors of those machine, keep taking this back and you come to realize that everyone and everything has a very important role to play in the game of life.

CBA stated:

If you are correct and humanity is going to die, why are we necessarily meaningless? Do you think the dinosaurs were meaningless? They’ve been dead for millions of years, but we depend more and more on the fossil fuels they provide and we so desperately need (maybe not need, but want, but that’s a whole other debate). They still have an impact, a purpose, but there is even meaning if they had completely disappeared, since they changed the world, they were a part of the circle of life, that in itself warrants meaning and purpose, and not just of any kind but of the most important and special kind.

Your life has one of the biggest effects on all things than any other living thing we know of on the planet. Your very existance present on the chair stairing at this computer screen causes multiple ripples…imagine, the clothes you are wearing (thousands of people are influenced), the computer you are using, the people you have talked to in your life, the things you have done, the people you are not even aware you have come across but they’ve taken notice of you, you may not even realize it but you may have saved someones life without even knowing it. If you’ve done any nice deeds then there is your effect right there. You have a great effect on your parents life, on the doctors that helped you to move centrifugally out from your mothers womb. Imagine all the situations your very presence initiated at school or parties, imagine yourself gone at the moment of communication, what would those people be doing, their time would be spent doing something different and they would seize to be the people they are now (you are the sum of all your experiences) and they would be someone different.

CBA stated:

We all individually have a purpose, having an effect and having a purpose are two different things. Do you want to have an effect? How do you know you want to have it? What kind of an effect is it? Does morality play into it? We all have an effect, living is having an effect. Deciding to make a formulated effect by your own decision is something else all together. If you goof off today you will still have an effect on the world, you just won’t be deciding on any specific effect to have on the world.

I believe the individual has more of a purpose than collective. Any arguments?

CBA stated:

So life is about enjoying it? So we should all just go out and do what we enjoy best? If so, CBA if you have a girlfriend I suggest you lock her in the closet because I know some guys who would love to get some of that, since according to you they have the right to do what they enjoy (this being the purpose of life for you). I’m not trying to make fun of you, just trying to make you realize the logical flaw and help you to come to a new and better conclusion, and my highest hope to be honest is to get you to look at life more optimistically…many people that know me personally would say that I should take my own advice at this moment.

Take care.
What’s your take?

46

Oops double posted, sorry.

47

Magius and CBA,

I can imagine an immortal man living an eternally meaningless life. He awakens each day to lament his meaningless existence; just another useless day amid an infinity of equally useless days. Certain igneous rocks have existed intact since the early days of the Earth’s existence. They have billions of years of "under their belt, " but despite all this longevity, do you think a stone’s “existence” is meaningful?

If this stone were to be made the cornerstone of the Empire State Building then it would have purpose to humans, but making it the cornerstone of the most famous skyscraper gives it no intrinsic meaning-for-itself. If I’m unable to generate my own meaning it matters little if I live for 40 years or 40 thousand years; it would likewise matter little if I cleaned the sewers in Calcutta or if I’m President of the United States. Placing a fieldstone in the lower corner of an important wall, or elevating a sewer-cleaner to president of a powerful country are both equally useless in providing an intrinsic meaning to life.

The atoms in my present body will likely someday constitute in-part, the body of a man whose greatness the world has never before seen. Does this fact give my life meaning? That my DNA might might go on to help replicate a million future generations of men, similarly gives my life no meaning for-itself. Likewise, the asteroid that ends all life on Earth a hour after I die quietly in my own bed takes takes no meaning away from my life. I don’t live in the past or in the future. I live at this moment. If I’m incapable of supplying meaning to my life-in-itself, then there simply will be no meaning to my life.

Cba wrote:

You’re in luck Cba, nothing about our life is simple! :slight_smile:

Regards,
Michael

48

Polemarchus asked:

I won’t answer your question directly because I have yet to hear from you the definition, or your definition, of existence. So I will say where the stone’s existence is meaningful or not is yet to be discussed, but the stone itself IS meaningful.

Polemarchus stated:

You appear to be mixing two different concepts from the one you made in the above paragraph, in this one you are giving meaning to a rock for humans, I don’t believe something has a meaning through something else, a thing can only have meaning through itself as itself. Then you bring up the concept of intrinsic meaning, but the handicap lies in language. Since the word intrinsic comes from coming within which is easy for us humans to understand but harder when we imagine a rock, since a rock doesn’t have a brain, veins, organs, etc. Language has not evolved so far nor our knowledge to explain a rocks meaning for itself.

Polemarchus stated:

Generate? Do you truly suppose that meaning in our lives comes from being generated by us consciously? If that were so, would not a part of every culture include a time and a place to sit and think up meaning for one’s life otherwise their life will be utterly meaningless? Do you not concede that one’s life can be meaningful without them realizing it?

Polemarchus stated:

Now your on the right track, it doesn’t matter how important or dull your life is according to societies standards, we are all important, we all have meaning.

Polemarchus asked:

There is no quintessential meaning to life, therefore my answer to your question is ‘Yes’.

Polemarchus stated:

Depends on what you truly mean by ‘for-itself’, nevertheless again your DNA counts as meaning in life, especially for the reason you give above.

Polemarchus stated:

From the time you started reading this post to the point you are reading this very sentence, and to the point where you read ‘what is your take?’ you will have lived in the past, be living in the present, and will live in the future. If an asteroid destroys you and doesn’t destroy the meaning from your life, then the meaning must be something outside of you (since you have been obliterated but you still have meaning).

Polemarchus stated:

Again this ‘life-in-itself’, your really gonna need to explain to me in detail what you mean by that. I disagree with the notion that if you cannot ‘supply’ (since I don’t think one supplies meaning in their life) then there is no meaning to your life, your life’s meaning is not dependant on your supplying it, only in the sense of society that society has entrenched in your mind that if you do not work for the system making money you are worthless and have no meaning. They want you to believe this so you do as they wish, but I think you already know all this since you have chosen the type of lifestyle you told me about a few weeks back that so inspired me.

What’s your take?

49

I’ve really got to stop listening to music while I read these things. My head is so crap right now and the worst part is that I’m going to have to read all those posts all over again. As of now I think I see what you’re getting at but I don’t believe it. I’ve got to sort my thoughts and I’m too tired and excited about other things to concentrate so I’ll respond later. I figured I’d atleast give you notice that I read it and am still completely confused :smiley:

50

this whole topic seems to be bordering on the questionable existence of fate/destiny versus free will. what if everyone has their own destiny that they are unaware of. ill take your calcutta sewer cleaner example, Polemarchus. his life seems insignificant, right? but say the sewer cleaner has a son who takes over the “family business” when he becomes a man. then he has a son and an otherwise uneventful life. it goes on like this for generations when finally the great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandson of the original sewer cleaner is cleaning and finds a huge sack of (enter calcutta’s currency here.) the family is now rich and powerful. they start a business and make even more money. my point is, maybe this was destined to happen. but what if the original sewer cleaner had choson another trade? he would alter the future in ways he couldnt imagine. im not sure if i explained my theory very well but i think that maybe we all have a destiny that, even though our lives are seemingly insignificant, has great impact on the future. all im saying is that perhaps, for some people, the meaning of life is to affect someone elses life.

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Hi Magius,
Well yes, because I’m speaking of two distinctly different types of meaning. In an earlier post to this thread I explained these two types of meaning. To quote myself:

[i]"I’ve two different understandings of the word “meaning.” When one thing exists for the sake of some other thing, one thing is said to have an extrinsic meaning for the other…

The other notion of meaning has to do with what we think of as having an intrinsic meaning, or meaning for itself. My happiness intrinsically has meaning to me. I value it for itself, rather than as a means to a further end…Love is another example of that which is often intrinsically meaningful."[/i]

“Meaning-for-itself” is equivalent to intrinsic meaning. Sorry, I shouldn’t have changed canoes in midstream. It seems I’ve contracted the dreaded Existentialist-Hyphen-Syndrome! :slight_smile:

You asked for my definition of “existence.” Hopefully, my straightforward understanding of the word matches yours. “Existence” is simply a phenomena of the inanimate world; what Kant called “being-in-itself.” Hmm…those hyphens again, and Kant wasn’t even an Existentialist! Both a rock and a man exist, but a man goes on to create his essence, and from his essence, hopefully, he goes on to create meaning.

Sorry Magius, I’m afraid I’m still on your wrong track. My thesis in the last post was that extrinsic meaning is fundamentally distinct from intrinsic meaning. I wrote in the earlier post that for some folks an extrinsic meaning is quite enough. They’re content just to feel needed. Hurrah for them, unfortunately I’m not one of those people. It’s not good enough for me just to be tool for another person’s happiness. Yes, of course I’m pleased to think that I might be an aid to another person’s happiness. That’s wonderful, but it does not confer enough meaning for me.

Think of Marilynn Monroe. Millions adored her. Countless women would have made a Faustian Bargain to have been her. But it appears that the devotion of others wasn’t enough for Marilynn. The two-bit amateur psychologist in me wonders if she lacked an intrinsic meaning to her life; a meaning that only she, rather than her millions of adoring fans could have provided.

Please go back to my handy Robinson Crusoe example. You imply here that Robinson cannot supply meaning to his own life. Since he’s quite alone and forgotten in the world, if not from him, I wonder where you might suggest Robinson’s meaning to life could come from?

Magius, I don’t understand what you are saying. You say that Robinson can’t supply meaning to his own life, and then you say that he (something) cannot have a meaning through something else. If meaning doesn’t come to us either internally or externally, then from where does it come?

Now I’m really at a loss. You said that one does not supply meaning in their life, but then you say that a thing can only have meaning through itself. Huh?

No, I do not concede that. A man possessing no realization of a meaning of life has no meaning of life. Please don’t confuse the value you place on another man’s life with the value he gives to his own life. You asked if his life can be meaningful (to him) if he does not realize it to be meaningful.

Suicide is the 9th leading cause of death in the United States. So it’s obvious that we are not always important to ourselves. The Jews were not important to the Nazi’s. The Muslims were not important to the Serbs. The folks in the World Trade Center were not important to the September 11th terrorists. So it’s obvious that we are not always important to each other. If people are not always imortant to themselves or each other, then it’s hard to make the case that we are all important and that we all have meaning.

Now, in my idea of a utopian world our lives would always have meaning to both ourselves and to each other. My life has meaning to me and I similarly value the lives of others. I despair when I read of a tragic ferry boat disaster in Indonesia, for example. But my view of how the world should be is not the way the world actually is. The fact is that not all humans are treated by others as if their lives had value and not all humans treat their own lives as if they themselves, have value.

So, if that which confers value to life comes from either inside or outside of ourselves, in either case it is not true that it confers universal value to all life. Again, I say that men create their own meaning for life, just as they create their ethical disposition towards others.

“Man merely assigned values to things in order to maintain himself; he created the significance of things, a human significance! Therefore, he calls himself “man” that is,“the valuator.” Through valuation only is there value; and without valuation would the nut of existence be hollow…” Nietzshe, Also Sprach Zarathustra, “Von Tausend und Einem Ziele,” pp85-86

Without valuation the nut of existence is indeed hollow.

Michael

52

The meaning of life depends on what life you are talking about - not just among individual human beings, as we all have our personal meanings. What is the meaning of the life on this fair planet of plants, insects, algae, animals of all varying sizes, etcetera? Or what is the meaning of human life? It seems as though ‘life’ is being used as a blanket term to envelop ‘all that is living’.

Dictionary.com says [definitions irrelevant to this discussion - i.e. colloquial uses of the word ‘life’ to mean something else - have been omitted]:

life:

  1. The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism.
  2. The characteristic state or condition of a living organism.
  3. The physical, mental, and spiritual experiences that constitute existence: the artistic life of a writer.
  4. A spiritual state regarded as a transcending of corporeal death.
  5. Human existence, relationships, or activity in general: real life; everyday life.
  6. Actual environment or reality; nature.

meaning:

  1. Something that is conveyed or signified; sense or significance.
  2. Something that one wishes to convey, especially by language.
  3. An interpreted goal, intent, or end.
  4. Inner significance.

Point 3 of ‘life’ entry clearly states that one of the linguistic meanings of ‘life’ is the sum of a person’s experiences during their existence, which provides support for Magius’ view. Once you get into the definition of ‘meaning’, though, it seems as though meaning is neccessarily something which people need to assign to whatever it is - there appears to be no meaning in and of itself, only that created by people. Point 4 - ‘Inner significance’ could be interpreted otherwise, as it may point to the ‘inner’ significance of a thing, but ‘significance’:

  1. The state or quality of being significant.
  2. A meaning that is expressed.
  3. A covert or implied meaning

Rather circular - ‘Inner covert meaning’ or ‘Inner implied meaning’ or ‘Inner meaning that is expressed’ all still come back to ‘meaning’. Significant [from point 1] yields much the same:

  1. Having or expressing a meaning; meaningful.
  2. Having or expressing a covert meaning; suggestive.
  3. Having or likely to have a major effect; important.
  4. Fairly large in amount or quantity.
  5. Of or relating to observations or occurrences that are too closely correlated to be attributed to chance and therefore indicate a systematic relationship.

The only one which does not use something which is neccessarily subjective is Point 5, the definition of statistical significance.

I cannot begin to fathom how to express the meaning of life using a range of probabilities; nor do I know what variables I would need to input into a regression equation to come up with an answer to the statistical significance of all life. Furthermore, the calculation would probably require knowledge of statistics vastly superior to mine; I remember reading about ‘chaos mathematics’ - a supremely complicated theory that seems to hold a lot of water when it comes to explaining life (and economics). It is my belief that the only ‘true’ ‘meaning’ of life would have to be derived using an non-subjective method of assigning meaning - which is a contradiction in terms since even by definition [above] ‘meaning’ is subjective.

The only thing that makes some subjectively derived meanings of life touted as THE meanings better than other such meanings is the amount of thought and reasoning put behind the meaning in question. When I read this thread and read the reasoning behind what Magius claims is THE meaning of life, I am vastly more likely to consider it than when a Christian fundamentalist screams ‘The Meaning of Life is to Serve God/Kill Abortion Doctors/any other handy slogan of fundamentalist representatives of various religions’.

I do not, however, believe that there is a meaning to ALL life. Life is too complex, and above all, too random, to have a readily available meaning that applies to all instances of it. I realize that this thread is mostly about the lives of human beings on this wonderful rock we call Earth, but I wanted to put in my $.02. :slight_smile:

53

First of all, very well said furiosity. Very detailed and all encompassing. I’m in much agreement with your views. Although, as strange as it may sound, I don’t think one of the ideas was delved into deep enough. I will attempt to explain, I say attempt, since this topic and each post are getting so long and complicated, I have my doubts about my ability to explain and agglomerate all that has been said while also keeping my point clear, oh what a fragile mind I have.

furiosity stated:

In my humble opinion I should have said a long time ago what I am about to argue now, where furiosity says that there appears to be no meaning in and of itself, is the exact opposite of what I have been trying to say without actually saying it. For those who may be confused what the opposite is - don’t worry I will soon be just as confused as you - I mean that meaning has meaning in and of itself; in that only a thing can have meaning, only a thing can create meaning. Because it has meaning, it creates meaning. Furthermore, all things have meaning, you could say, existence carries with it the universal guarantee that you have meaning. Yes people can create meaning, but so can other things, not necessarily consciously. Since the meaning of life is experience and meaning (for me) means that a things has a purpose, than all things have a purpose. All the arguments against this view that furiosity made were good ones and hold much water.

furiosity says the universe is too chaotic and too random, this view is held by many theoreticians, but how did we come upon so much knowledge? Our knowledge came from science, the field of work where things have to be repeated over and over again to raise the probability of truth until it is considered a law or otherwise disproven. Repetition comes from a pattern of things working, Ie. water will boil at 100 Celcius. For thousands of years water has been condensing and evaporating out and in of the atmosphere - yet somehow this is chaotic and random. These patterns apparent in things give meaning and understanding to them. To me personally, water has meaning, for it is one of the primary reason we are alive. Yet water cannot consciously create meaning for itself, nor does it have reason or choice, it abides by what many call universal laws (Ie. gravity). I would say these universal laws have meaning, as well as everything else.

I am aware of such contradictin evidence as the Heizenberg Principle (i really hope I have the spelling right) which states that we can never know the exact location of an electron revolving around the nucleus of an atom. But I dont believe this Principle is an all encompassing one. Since it is true, right now we cannot find out the position of an electron, but who’s to say one day we won’t? Who’s to say we are not missing some bit of information that will explain to us or make us realize the truth, a mathematical calculation for the location of an electron at any point while revolving around an nucleus.

I wish to continue, but it’s getting late (must sleep)…if there is interest in the topic I will continue the post later.

What’s your take?

54

Alright I figure out where I went wrong. I was confusing meaning with effect and I was having trouble drawing the line between the two. It just didn’t hit me in the face for some reason and I got all confused.

55

I suppose it’s kind of late to be posting here, but maybe someone will read this.

To me, the question isn’t necessarily “what is the meaning of life?” It could also be, “Is there a meaning to life?” Unless you’re defining it in an intrisic way where you determine your own meaning within your own existence, there may be some complications. If you believe that there is an overall meaning to life, it probably means that you believe in a god.

Without intent to create life, there could be no meaning behind life being created and without a creator, it is hard to have intent. Ok, so say now that you believe in a god as the creator of life. Imagine you are the only thing in existence. What would be the first things you would want? A place to be and someone to talk to would be my choices. Maybe a god created the universe, us, animals, etc. because god was tired of being alone. Maybe god enjoyed the feeling of life and wanted to share the experience with others… kind of like when you see a really good movie or hear a good song and play them to your friends so that they can share your experiences.

I’ve never understood why people need to define meaning in everything. It feels nice, I suppose, to know that you’re needed in some large scheme, but when it comes down to it, it is a burden as well. The point to life (note: point is different than meaning) is to live life. Maybe you have one life, maybe you have a thousand. Who knows, who cares? Why waste what time you do have thinking about the possibilities when you could be out there living them?

56

Mostly because I’m not satisfied with the cause and effect cycle being considered the meaning to my existance. I don’t remember my initial meaning behind the post but this is what I’ve concluded as of now. My unsatisfied state still remains. But the problems I was having when the question had started are gone so the whole “who cares” philosophy has taken over nicely. I now find myself giving into the unescapable cycle of working eating and sleeping which I find to be very shallow but the only possible explanation for my existance. Eventually my hatred for that system will arise again and hopefully it won’t be to late to call it a mid life crisis.

57

Hey CBA,
be happy, my hatred for the system never left. Remember, you didn’t put yourself in that system, the system outside your house is quite the coersive force, so don’t be so hard on yourself. I’m sure if you look at it hard enough you will find that you didn’t have much choice to take the route you have taken. But it’s always important to keep true to your own beliefs, you just never know when there may be an opportunity to implement them.

What’s your take?

58

sorry i am stupidly lazy, but massively opinionated so i couldn’t be arsed to read what anyone else has written, but feel the need to put my oar in.

i would like to know why people have the need to find “meaning” in existance? Does it make life more interesting or more amazing if there is meaning? i like to think that life is meaningless on a wider scale. I believe that things come alive by a random culmination of things, they live, and will return to nothingness when they die. I think this makes the fact that there is life more exeptional; random influences come together, make something unique, and then disappear.

With regard to existance on a daily level, as a person i believe that you can apply the same theory, however it is impossible to avoid the fact that you will constantly create meanings for other people in their interactions with you. saying nothing is a thing.

59

I wonder if this sort of logic will continue while we get more advanced. Some people still believe that religion is the meaning of life. Ya think in a couple thousand years we would form some sort of other beliefs that don’t agree with the logic of being born to reproduce and die?

If that makes sesne… I don’t know I’m tired.

60

Hi all,

I hope I’m not over-simplifying this, but based on the previous posts I think that it’s safe to say that life (with a lowercase “L”), on the more personal intrinsic level (as in my life, your life, his life) can only be defined/given purpose/given meaning from this very same personal intrinsic level. Here on this level of life, there aren’t any all-encompassing blanket statements about life that can possibly be true for every single person everywhere throughout all time and space. It’s all subjective. On this level, each person can have their own unique reasons for why he/she is here, why he/she chooses to get out of bed every morning, and what gives his/her own existence meaning.

Now if the above statement regarding individual life is acceptable, I’d like to offer my two cents on LIFE itself (with a capital “L”), where I’m referring to life on the more abstract, objective, and overall level.

While I may have my own reasons for why I’m here, why I choose to spend my time the way I do, or what is personally important to me in my own life, it can get complicated when we try to find an overall and absolute meaning or purpose to LIFE itself. For example, if I’m playing a football game and I’m a linebacker, I may have reasons for why I am and should be a linebacker, why I’m happy or unhappy being a linebacker, what I need to do as the linebacker, and how I need to go about being a linebacker. However, this still doesn’t provide anyone with any reasons for why football games exist in the first place or what a football game itself is meant to accomplish. I mean, what’s the point of it all?

I think that since people have different views on why LIFE, like a football game, exists in the first place, we get into confusion on what LIFE, like a football game, is really meant to accomplish, or what the overall purpose or meaning is there to LIFE itself. So here are some of the theories of LIFE that I know of. There are probably many others, and I obviously wouldn’t know which one is correct, if any of them are.

LIFE is a gift:
Maybe we are here because some higher power has graciously given us LIFE as gift. Maybe we should (or must) praise this higher power and pledge total loyalty and service to him/her. Maybe we need be grateful for this gift or risk suffering the consequences.

LIFE is a burden or some kind of punishment:
Maybe we are here to pay for our own or other’s past karmic debts. Maybe we need to suffer for a bit before we can move on to some next phase - so we can better appreciate what comes later.

LIFE is a school:
Maybe we are here in order to learn one single lesson or a thousand lessons that will better prepare us for what is yet to come. Maybe in the grand scheme of things, we are just in some sort of kindergarten.

LIFE is a game or some kind of simulation:
Maybe we are here for no real reason at all, but just to play. Maybe there is no true meaning to LIFE, just as there is no true meaning to playing an online computer game. Except for maybe to keep the game going or as Magius said - to simply experience it. For instance, when I’m playing a game online I have no problem playing as either the good guys or the bad guys. It’s fun to play (or experience) both. And while winning is still important while within the game, it is more important to me to keep the game going and to keep the game fun.

LIFE is a journey or some kind of mission with a specific goal:
Maybe there really is an ultimate reason/purpose/meaning to LIFE and our mission here is to find it. Maybe there is something that humanity as a whole is supposed to accomplish while we are here.

LIFE is a totally unplanned phenomenon without any design and is a result of millions and millions of years of evolution:
Maybe there isn’t any higher power that is giving us anything, punishing us for anything, teaching us anything, or simply providing us with a playground to play in. Maybe WE are the higher power. Maybe the reality is that the rest of the world is depending on us, rather than us depending on someone/something else.

LIFE is a cereal:
Just kidding. :slight_smile:

LIFE is a dream:
Maybe I’m just one of many fictional characters in your own elaborate dream. Maybe there is only one person who really truly exists here and everybody else here are just characters in that person’s dream.

I think it’s impossible to know which one, if any, is correct or even close to being correct. It’s all speculation. And while it can be fun and enlightening to sit and contemplate the universe and our ultimate place within it, I definitely don’t think we should lose any sleep over it by constantly dwelling upon it. Time is much better spent contemplating our own individual existence and our own place within this reality, whatever it is, rather than trying to search for the one ultimate truth about LIFE itself that applies to everyone and everything everywhere.

Sorry for such a long post. I’m new to the board and it’s harder than I thought to stay concise while not generalizing things too much.

Does anyone know of any other theories on LIFE?