This site seems to be infested with a great swarm of theophobes.
Why, I ask myself?
God is a fact of life, like the atomic bomb, you can’t undo it, it exists and that’s all there is to it.
You might not like it, but that’s your problem. Why bother the rest of us with your virulent fear and hatred?
A religious person is well advised never to mention their beliefs but to keep them private. Well I would advise all the anti-religious to do the same!
Why not? should we just accept that “it” is there and we should be happy about it? Maybe we just want to understand him. I used to love that god so much i looked in to him, did some Research and read some stuff. The more I read the less I believed.
Ah does he? How is he a fact? Who told you this fact? where did they learn of such a guy who happens to only care for humans?
Oh lord knows I don’t hate him! He understands everything so he understands the way I think and knows why I think it. I don’t think there is much hatred at all, just questions like, WHERE THE HELL ARE YOU, HAVENT YOU NOTICED THERES A WAR GOING ON BECAUSE OF YOU, YOU WANA COME DOWN HERE AND SETTLE SOME STUFF??" I would love to love that man like I once did before.
Really, I thought people were to spread the news of god not keep hide it.
Well this was the shortest argument ever. Nice, very nice.
There are many hypotheses as to why IF there is a God, such things can still happen without inconsistency.
For example:- Not yet, the time is not ripe yet. The mother of all wars have not begun yet.
Well where are those who say they know God, and who call upon God’s name, what are they doing about it? This is a trial for them and their knowledge of God and not for God.
For how else would the world believe that it is God that chose you and that it is not you who choose God? For given the ordinary course of things in the world, it is unnatural that you or anyone believed God. For example if you apply Occam’s razors and adopt the most parsimonious explanation you will say there is no God.
For how else would the believers’ faith be tested and proven true? For unless you are able to stand firm despite what the eyes see, and instead see with the eyes of faith, founded upon the promises of the One who is True.
Because “god” is the projection of a psyche in a state of affliction. Fear and hate are the themes we give to this world because the world is conflicting, and we assume this to be the choice of a vengeful or malicious “god.” We would therefore attribute these themes to “god” as the concept takes the shape of a human psychological ideal. Simply stated, “god” must be directly related, concerned, and in control of all possible human ideals. One of which is the concept that “god” allows for suffering, misfortune, disaster, etc. Hence the fear and/or hatred.
A friend once asked why I spend so much time worrying about whether or not a “god” exists when I shouldn’t want to worship such a thing if it did exist. A God responsibile for this world gets props?
You must be kidding me.
Nanook
You say, “Because “god” is the projection of a psyche in a state of affliction.â€
Then are you saying that the atheists’ psyches on ILP are afflicted?
So, the atheist projects his idea of god and this projection is accompanied by fear and hatred, (essentially by a disturbed personality.) Well this is a new one on me! I’ve often heard the argument that belief in god was a kind of madness or personality disorder, (usually an argument proffered by atheists and their accomplices,) but now you’re saying that the atheists are the ones who are crazy! Beautiful!
So all these people who deny god are psychopaths, schizophrenics, and the suchlike! And they imagine this vengeful and malicious god, personified with attributes of vengefulness and malice that accord with their own personality defects!! Yes, I like it!
On another point, I’m not sure that suffering, misfortune, and disaster can be regarded as ideals…
Surely, spending time worrying about whether or not god exists is a form of worship, true and proper worship, not the pseudo-worship of the non-existent gods of organised religion!
I can’t agree that we ARE ‘infested with a great swarm of theophobes’ here.
I myself am not one, and I have not encountered evidence of theophobia here any more than I might in the ‘real world’ outside my doorstep.
‘virulent fear and hatred’ of god exists everwhere we look: in international conflicts and local segregatory issues.
This site is certainly no makeshift ‘shelter’ for the great one’s most inimical critics.
Moreover, I should stress that stating that one does NOT believe in god is NOT EQUIVALENT to ‘theophobia’!
Conscientious, considered objection is very different to prejudiced, ill- considered fear.
One: Why is the war currently occuring not enough? Why would God want there to be a mother of all wars? Why would he allow it? What purpose would it serve? Why must we suffer?
Two: If God is so potent, we don’t need to choose him. He doesn’t need worship or our belief. And since we don’t need God, and God doesn’t need us, there seems no logical reason to worship, or even acknowledge His existence (if indeed he does exist).
Three: Why test the believers? If God is perfect, God needs and wants nothing, for to want or need is to lack, and to lack is to be imperfect.
Did that help?
I’m not sure that follows at all. In fact, I’m sure it doesn’t. To question something does not in anyway imply worship. I can question my own existence, that doesn’t mean I’m worshiping myself.
Shybard
Just one of my paradoxical utterances.
Seems it is my destiny to speak paradoxically!
But isn’t that what philosophers do?
So I s’pose I must be a philosopher, (actually, I’m a prokopton, from the planet prokoptos, but don’t tell anyone!) 
This is one topic that will go on for ever. If you do not believe there is a God, fine, one thing that humans are allowed to do (most humans anyway) is to make choices. In any case I don’t think I have any argument to justify why I believe in God not in the way you philosophers want because there is no logical line of argument. So go ahead, quote me, say anything you like, but there is a God and that is the main reason why there is no logical explanation.
Quite frankly, I think religion is a delicate subject, there are so many unncessary distinctions. So what If I am Catholic and the other person is Jewish? I believe that there is only one God, therefore people are the same. If I am a Born Again Christian, why do I have to become a Mormon to go to Heaven? For you who believe Catholics are not Christians, think again, because such distinctions are one of the reasons why sometimes I don’t blame people for being skeptical.
Go on and use your fancy philosopher jargon to explain why you think there is no God. It is not something you can question like why a cup is laying on your table. Why must you question everything anyway? Philosophers don’t have answers they have opinions. All questions lead you to more questions and you end up right back where you started.
If I am a parent, and I brought you up as a child. You grew up and got married. I paid for your house and your car. Then you quarreled with your wife, and the house fell into disrepair and your children strayed and ended up in drugs and prison, do you turn around to blame me for your dysfunctional family?
But of course I still love you as my child, and your children are my children too, and I love them all too, and I will intervene, but at the right time.
You are absolutely right but for one point. Yes surely God do not need you, nor your worship nor you choice for him, to be God. He is God whether or not you know or want it. The flower will bloom in the desert whether or not you see it. However are you sure you do not need God?
The logic of God is the logic of Life itself. Did you choose life? to live in this era, in the place wherever it is you are now on earth, and to be male or female, black, white, yellow or whatever mix? Do you know why you have life? Does life have a purpose? Sure you can “live” life without questioning and answering all these questions, just as the animals apparently just live life …
And yes by the way ALL will ressurrect whether or not you believe, chose or worship God.
Can a finite mind comprehend the infinite? Lets take a simple example. Can you imagine what you see or think if you can see time for all times, from eternity to eternity? Imagine you can see yourself not only now in the present but every instance of yourself in the past and in the future, all at the same instance in time! What then do you think? Can you think at all? So thus can the imperfect knows the Perfect?
Now as to the reason for testing: Gold have to be refined in a firery furnance to be gold, or else it is just like any other rock.
god is dead
Why don’t you give us some good arguments for God’s existence? You’ve given me no reason with the above statements to budge from my atheism. I might as well just respond, “This website is infested with a bunch of reality-phobes. God is a figment of the imagination, like the Smurfs, you can’t wish God into existence and that’s all there is to it.”
Give me something real to argue with, and we’ll go from there.
smithigans wake
[i]“Why don’t you give us some good arguments for God’s existence? You’ve given me no reason with the above statements to budge from my atheism. I might as well just respond, “This website is infested with a bunch of reality-phobes. God is a figment of the imagination, like the Smurfs, you can’t wish God into existence and that’s all there is to it.”
Give me something real to argue with, and we’ll go from there.â€[/i]
Wake up smithigan! It was all a dream. There, there. Don’t cry, it’ll be all right! You were talking in your sleep my child. Muttering something about “good arguments?â€
Did he try to wish god into existence – and it didn’t work? Oh!
What do you want? You want toys to play with? What, you want some puzzle to solve? Shall I write out the ‘cosmological argument?’ That’s your favourite isn’t it! There you go then…
STAGE ONE
The existence of something is intelligible only if it has an explanation. (By definition of ‘intelligibility’.)
The existence of the universe is either
(a) unintelligible; or
(b) has an explanation. (From Premiss 1)
No rational person should accept (2a). (By definition of ‘rationality.’)
Therefore a rational person should accept (2b): The universe has an explanation. (From Premisses 2 and 3.)
STAGE TWO
There are only three kinds of explanation:
(a) Scientific: explanations of the form If (C & L) then E (independent initial physical CONDITION, plus relevant physical LAW, gives rise to the EVENT we want to explain: thus the CONDITION and the LAW explain the EVENT).
(b) Personal: explanations that cite the desires, beliefs, capacities and intentions of a personal AGENT.
(c) Essential: the essence of the thing we want to explain necessitates its existence or its qualities.
The explanation for the existence of the whole universe cannot be scientific. (There can’t be initial physical conditions and laws independent of what is to be explained.)
The explanation for the existence of the whole universe cannot be essential. (The universe is not the sort of thing that exists necessarily.) Therefore:
STAGE THREE
A rational person should believe that the universe has a personal explanation (to be unpacked in terms of the desires, beliefs, capacities and intentions of a personal AGENT).
The personal agent that creates the universe can be called God.
Therefore:
Is that better? Oh please don’t start crying again! Daddy needs peace to think!
Hi,
This thread is going nowhere. It’s veered off course from the original question and seems to have turned into an ego war.
phrygianslave, please assess and change the tone of your posts, they are often petty and provocative. We are here to learn not to attack each other for our beliefs. If you have a genuine question on the nature of faith on this forum then please phrase it in a less argumentative way.
Apologies to those who contributed some intelligent posts. Feel free to start them in alternate threads.