Rorty Study: Philosophy and the Mirror of Nature

Anyway:

I suppose the best way to go about this is to focus on the issue of overlap: the point at which I drew my line in the sand, then reached over to shake Iona’s hand.

While I cannot speak perfectly for Iona, my sense of it was that while they agreed that looking for the intersections and overlaps (that between different philosophical traditions and philosophers (was a legitimate way of going about philosophy, they felt there was a deeper and more effective way to go about it. To put it in their words:

“The goal might be simply to locate those points of intersection and overlap among these methods in order to assist them to working more together and less at each other’s expense, as you indicate; but another goal, the prerogative of the thinker, would be to achieve a more complete division of these substances into their more fundamental natures, so that the human consciousness and experience for the first time can be truly understood and unleashed.”

Now the first thing I would note here is that Iona’s style of exposition has been a little vague and challenging to me. But as I understand them, what they are arguing here is that we should analyze and push deeper than the methods themselves into the underlying structures of consciousness and experience in order to break beyond the differences of method. And I can appreciate this to the extent that this is what Deleuze more or less tried to do.

My issue with this is, first, their underestimation of the value of intersection and overlap as was suggested by the use of the qualifier “simply” (overlap seeming like an expression of the common core suggested by human consciousness and experience (and, secondly, with the futility of thinking we can reach such a full understanding of the other as to facilitate such an ambitious agenda.

(But before I go on, I should first explain the import of overlap: if you think about, what we tend to start out with and continue to work with, as the intellectually and creatively curious, are those overlaps of interest that tend to emerge be between the main players in our culture and are the result (or are sustained by the lesser players that adapt those overlaps and participate by adding their own takes on it. Take, for instance, the mind/brain issue: many philosophers, scientists, and other thinkers have engaged it and there has been a lot of overlap in the ways they have dealt with it. This is why many major players tend to quote other major players. And what is a philosophy 101 textbook but a catalogue of those overlaps and digressions into the details of how those overlaps came to be? And it is via those overlaps that we work towards the details of what a particular thinker with a particular method has had to say on the issue.

(The main issue I expressed with Iona is that while their’s is a worthy attempt, I’m not sure it can ever be truly achieved due to the fact that an individual is always a particular point in space and time. We can go through the process of turning content into form via form all we want. But what we can never do is actually look at it through their eyes. This is why you could know a particular philosopher and their method virtually word by word, but the process will always be your own because you can never truly know their process as they experienced it. Therefore, no matter how hard we try, I’m not sure we can ever get beyond the overlap.

This goes to Deleuze’s point that friendship is a matter of knowing the other’s madness: until they know your madness, they cannot be your friend. In this sense of it: you can know a friend as deep as anyone possibly can; but what you can never do is know them completely. I mean there is a sense of unknowing in the notion of madness: of not being able to grasp it by any rational tools available to you. You can never know them through their eyes. And because of this, you can only sustain the relationship through the overlap and the pragmatic truth test of what works to keep it going. Why would it be any different with any philosopher or their method?

It is interesting to note that ‘overlap’ is such a generic term. It signifies so much, as to entail a specific minimum, it’s a description rather than a method.

There may be many way to describe overlap, some of which would be: incorporation, synthesis, average, synthetic a-priori, co-incidence, union, and more.

d63, what is the dynamic sense in which the above quoted writer defines overlap, specifically? Is it an attempt to fine tune the differential between quantitative and qualitative aspects? And could such overlap have correlates between Rorty and Deleuze in mirroring/mirror stage, as an optical interpretation of the concept?

Forgive me for bringing various and perhaps co-incidental thema in the OP ,possibly, an un-intended relationship, but one can not but wonder if, there is such ? (Bearing in mind, full well, that there is a difference between relationship and relevance)

I agree with You with the notion of interpersonal sharing of a ‘madness’ a folie-a-deux, of life’s possibilities, in a very general sense, as if one person was capable to ‘incorporate’ within him/herself, the sorrows of the world. (Goethe)

My opinion on that is be now crystallized,my divergence from Nietzsche , on the score of the will,
the overcoming, is, that it has not happened (yet) And if history is to be proved any measure , in retrospect, (with the new world order a totally divergent path from one Nietzsche would take),
then indeed, the world would predicate on Kantian, rather than Liebnitzean ideals, of whose philosophy only the mathematical framework would prove to be essential, but that kind of idealism is fairly easily reducible to a neo-Platonism, of say a Plotinus.

I can easily say that , because the Enlightenment is but a thin, recent layer which has developed through philosophy’s history of thousands of years. To dis-qualify the previous (prior to the Enlightenment) ,is to ignore and dissociate the socially evolved from the technically feasible.

Therefore ‘overlap’ may be looked at in this manner, by the sources You indicated, whereby it could regain the relevance of the ‘calculus’ of Being, and Kant could be reduced to Leibniz.

“I believe I agree largely with what you say above and think that at its most simple and reflexive level ‘postmodern’ discourse points to the inevitable a priori embedded within any discourse (including itself). The result of this CAN be the smug conclusion that all discourses are then bogus and undeserving of attention- but that reaction presumes some discourse which has no a priori within it and is thus the ‘real’ or the ‘legitimate’ discourse (‘science’ is the usual candidate put forward for this role). But in fact I think the more appropriate (let us not argue about the ‘proper’ here) is one of fundamental humility and even openness in relation to all discourses. Not for an instant does this indicate that all discourses are ‘equal’- judgment does not end with humility.”

I agree. However, where as you use the term “a priori”, I would use the term “assumption” to the extent that any method we might use, or any conclusion we might come to based on it, any argument we might use to support it, and any “ism” will ultimately come down to certain assumptions that ultimately float on thin air. It is that “floating on thin air” that underlies the nihilistic perspective you might hear me talk about from time to time.

What this has thus far (given the inductive limit (resulted in is a situation in which every debate ultimately breaks down to an impasse of assumptions: a kind of “is so”/”is not” dynamic (what Layotard referred to as Differends (that can never be resolved. Take, for instance, the issue of abortion: it is one of the assumption that life begins at conception against the assumption that it doesn’t: once again: is so, is not. The problem is that neither has any solid foundation beneath them outside of what the individual feels. And the same goes for pretty much every other debate there is.

The problem is, as you rightly (and impressively (point out, this can result in a smug dismissal of all discourses that ASSUMES that it has found the only real answer. And you, yet again, present another challenge to my main criticism of the skeptic’s paradox as a dismissal of the skeptic.

Finally, I agree with your conclusion that what this all points to is a humility that, in the Rortian spirit, gives privilege to discourse over any epistemological system we might use to underwrite our assertions. At the same time, I would add a Deleuzian qualifier in that we cannot let this humility serve as a mandate to be beautiful souls who believe all arguments are of equal value. We, right now, are dealing with a lot of people who, out of self interest, are in a state of denial about our impact on our environment, the finite nature of our natural resources and unsustainable population growth, and an emerging (and perfectly totalitarian (aristocracy via global Capitalism.

You’re right: we must be humble. At the same time, we cannot allow that humbleness to handicap us in the face of really bad and even dangerous reasoning.

Obe, I swear: my non-responsiveness has nothing to do with the quality of your points and everything to do with where my circumstances keep taking me. Keep jamming brother. I look forward to joining you.

As far as the circle of understanding is concerned [?: you mean between me and you…. or someone else?[, what You are implying is true, , but French literacy is never really 'literate, rather, it is much more of the associative free flow, the bringing to light of the poesy of the sub conscious[you mean play?[, a reaction to Sartre’s retraction, as his is a takeoff on the unsuccessful interpretation of Nietzsche’s attempt at allusions.

obe! watch this:

.,…….(…………:____(:

?

isn’t it kind of cool to even be able to touch space

[I mean with your time and all

[….

just nesting, obe

(you know:
one thing inside of the other

[was reminded of that term (nested( just tonight
:seemed like a pretty word

'just like the way things can fold together…

deleuze?

Anyway: what I came back to say was I never realized how pretty you’re writing is…
even if I don’t always (often don’t (FULLY [I emphasize this for a reason[ understand it
…until tonight

[not sure why.
just…

this is just between u & me…

love u, man

u made my night: Tonight…

Imagine us, obe, as 2 children crouched in a jungle gym:

now imagine what it would take for us to get from there to here.

(imagine the discourses that would occur in between(

just something to think about…

brother

believe it or not, obe (brother(this whole discourse lends credibility to the idea that the mirror of consciousness (and language: is never exact…

Put it this way:

doesn’t matter if what you say matches reality

(not to me at least

(:all that matters is the discourse.

and your jam justifies the assertion…

Sorry, obe, my mind just kind of wandered…

Jesus, obe: read yet something else you have written. You really are good at what you do…

But you have done it with me

:which means that you must have the same respect for me that I do you.

If anyone were to ask me what I did tonight:

I would say that I spent it with my friend:obe

Once again, obe:

I did not cross-pollinate:

I spent the whole night w/ u, brother

(and that is where it will stay

and tomorrow (if you’re worried about it

my brother obe (man, I was enjoying what I read:

you write in ways I want to write.

Dude! You did blow me away with your writing. I was impressed.

I just hope I can stand up to it.

still: I like writing too…

 In deed. The deed, (mine) sorrily, is limited with my over-abundant activities elsewhere.  Always have this thread , d63, in mind, however.  Later.

hi, just had a few at happy hour, and came across Freud’s famous Wolfeman case where it is referenced to Deleuze, as wolfman is described as a non derivative, with the multi as the multi derivational approach being preferred. In this case, the ontological difference between Freud and the Wolfman is reduced, (transference) but it’s success seems too ominous , resulting in a bi-lateral transference. I hope this will not be a block in terms of any block, although the answer will probably be at best , a surprise, albeit, not with the realization of multi point difference, into a subject i would like to reduce further, into ontology, from mere phenomenology.

Apart from this slight inconvenience, i must assure You, this being no centerpiece into the basic distraction, which for a while worked, as the reason d’etre of a ‘way out’

But it does shed light on that aspect of the differance. (The differance between reality and the pleasure principle)