I’d like to suggest an additional board not as criticism but just accepting a natural and inevitable human tendency to protect the sacred cow of self importance.
As I see it there are two directions religions take: secular and esoteric. The primary good of the secular is societal which of course there is nothing wrong with in theory.
The primary goal of the esoteric is the growth of our own personal being. It must begin on the premise that we are not what we think we are and the value of the esoteric is in developing the “inner man.” From this point of view, the secular can only manifest as it does as group attachment so freedom from attachment or the influence of the “Great Beast” is only possible for individuals. Naturally from the secular position this seems elitist. While the secular concerns itself with what we “do”, the esoteric is concerned with what we “are”
The religion board as it is now structured is secular in orientation so the self importance and societal interaction is all important. Suggestion of our self deception, our nothingness, is always attributed to the other guy and not ourselves leaving open the importance of condemning the other guy that denies our self importance. This makes it impossible for any meaningful dialogue on the depths of Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism and the like which stress that we are not what we think we are. The secular approach always assumes this of the other guy. However we become insulted when someone thinks it of us
Since my beliefs are heavily esoteric it is natural for me to arouse some bad feelings when I suggest the possibility of self deception in us all. People take offense which destroys communication. But avoiding the observation makes discussion useless for those appreciating the esoteric perspective of the Plato’sCave.
Why not then divide the religion section into two boards: secular and esoteric. This way the board can continue as it does in condemnation of religion, thought of world unity and peace without the intrusion of one like myself who is sensitive to the self deception within it.
I was struck by this post from nientilin in a thread he started called “Humility” which was ignored:
This is the idea of the esoteric religion board. There is no fighting over right and wrong but admitting to begin with that we are as in Plato’s cave and are outgrowing the need to argue. So what else is there? The ones that would attend such a board begin by admitting it. Those that want to ridicule, argue, and proclaim world peace and love can continue on the secular board. People love to argue and assert their self importance so why deny them? I’d like to become involved with and would help build a religion board that begins with our acknowledged recognition of existence as in Plato’s cave in order to compare notes on how to see it for what it is and begin to move closer to the truth. On such a board it would be foolish to call anyone an idiot because it would only be one self acknowledged idiot calling another self acknowledged idiot, an idiot. Naturally this is impossible on a board in which self importance is such a dominant feature. The difference is in attitude and recognizing its value.
An idiot from this perspective as I’ve read, is one who has recognized life in the cave and his slavery to it so admits to being an idiot in contrast to his potential. He tries to explain this to his friends who think he is an idiot for thinking such things. Now he is a complete idiot and at the perfect beginning on the path to understanding and human freedom.
So dear reader, if you’ve had the patience to read through this, does such a board appeal to any of you lurkers? I know it would only appeal to a minority but is there enough of a minority that would help develop and support it by delving into the deeper meanings behind the teachings of the ancient traditions such as Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, etc. without the need to win by arguing and condemnation but to understand through discussion how we understand ourselves? Nietzsche’s Overman for example could be equated with and discussed from the esoteric perspective of qualities of consciousness which is quite revealing.
“Know Thyself.” You can believe you’ve won an argument or debate, but how do you win a discussion? The goal then is the mutual concern for understanding If there is enough interest, perhaps it could be done.
It sounds wonderful to me. I don’t know if it would really be necessary to make a separate board for this… but if enough people started discussions with this in mind, perhaps it would chain-react contagiously and permanently effect the culture of ILP? Perhaps it would transform the Religion forum from secular to esoteric? (I’m not totally familiar w/ these terms… just using your lingo within the context of this thread… which is what I do most the time, anyway…).
I’m tired of the edgy feeling I keep getting lately… this idea you speak of sounds very refreshing.
I’m a little unclear on the do/are thing, but… I can relate to this…
Thanks for the input. I seriously doubt that these two different ways of looking at the human condition from the religious perspective can exist together. When people don’t understand, it is too tempting to ridicule or become insulted. It is hard to build a coherent meaningful thread when people are coming at it from such radically differing psychological perspectives and without mutual respect for the intent of the other.
I agree with you that the success of a board based on such principles would have a ripple effect from people being drawn to it because its premise is an attractive alternative. The concern is naturally if enough of a minority can see the value in it or just prefer arguing, debate, right and wrong and all the negativity that comes with it normal for life in Plato’s cave but not necessarily all that must be for those seeking more
Well if it gets off the ground we’ll have a ceremonial tossing of our “rose colered glasses” into the sea.
You would be surprised how interesting this can become. Take for example the topic of education where from the secular perspective its goals are “results”. Yet from the esoteric, the emphasis is on the process and the awareness that can result benefitting the “inner man” independant of results. Considering Plato’s ideas from this perspective becomes more meaningful when free from the emphasis of secular “results.”
This sounds interesting; I don’t think it needs a completely new section though, as you would still just have the same people posting in that forum as the current one. The idea of a public forum for esotericism is almost an oxymoron, a contradiction in terms. Normally that word has to do with a small group of people who hold a similar belief. It is possible to have multiple of such groups all sharing the same space bickering amongst themselves. Reminds me of the scene from Monty Pythons ‘The Life of Brian’ where a group of people after here Brian’s ramblings as a soothsayer (he’s trying to hind from the Romans) start to follow him as if he’s their new found messiah. He takes flight to get away from the Romans and they start to follow him. Along the way he buys a gourd which he gives to a beggar and losses a sandal. His “follows†all find their own ways of interpreting these events. Some believe they should gather shoes, as this is his sign. Others think it means they must hold one shoe aloft as sign of being one of his follower. While the other group believe that it is the gourd that should be worshiped. Needless to say this all ends in a religious war over who’s right.
The question of ‘What are we?’ is completely different from ‘Who am I?’ The group and the individual are two complete different things. We don’t all look alike nor even think alike we’re vastly different in nature. So when hoping to come to a conclusion for the ‘Who am I’ examination, this will be of no benefit other then to show that we aren’t all alike; we’re the so called individual. That’s not to say we are all alienated from one another. I can have a fair idea of where most others in my community are coming from. But once I leave the confines of my community it becomes trickier to understand what somebody is on about as their culture is different, so to is their mindset. Be it values, life style, etc… it ethnicity. Communities shape how we perceive the world, as to us the community is the only world we know and have contact with. Those who are lucky enough to travel can experience more of these communities and subcultures. To each community it believes its right, and that others should be more like them. Because we don’t all live in a vacuum, these cultures need to cohabitate on the same world and through things like this forum on the internet more people get to share how the world is for them.
Sometimes we can never come to an agreement with debating. Everybody experiences the world on different terms. While there are common groups whose experience will more closely match, ultimately there are always differences. To often people trumpet their views like they know they’re sing the song of truth. But to another they sound like a raving lunatic. Who’s right? Can there be an objective answer? Me, I don’t believe so, I think everything is subjective and that sometimes subjectivism is a share opinion. It’s not objective in the true sense people mean that word, more the practical one. If enough people say it’s so, it’s so; Tyranny of the mass, a.k.a Democracy. It’s for this reason the current Religious forum can be so confrontational people don’t want an objective truth, they just want to be told they’re right. So for that reason I’m going to tell you, you’re wrong.
There is a heavily moderated philosophy board and one that is more flexible. I imagine the distinction is to serve two goals: one more traditional and one more casual. In order to be traditional you can’t invite foolish sarcasm and ridicule. The idea is then to create a difference in attitude.
You know that if you’re at a fine restaurant your attitude would be different than at a rock club. It is the same with exchanging on religious ideas. The intent and moderating of the board including creating interesting threads will set the tone.
All I mean by esoteric initially is the inner realization that we are not what we think we are and don’t understand it. How a person comes to this is the variety but the equality for people aware in this way is in our nothingness as opposed to self importance being the motivating factor of the external or secular approach.
This is the inevitable result of the secular motive. The esoteric approach isn’t concerned with who is right or wrong but just what is being experienced. This is what is shared.
Good. finally we put this “We are all one” assertions into perspective. Sharing differences rather than condemning them is how we learn. We all have a piece of the puzzle that fits together in a higher more cosmic perspective. Why argue over whose piece is bigger or prettier. All the pieces together mean something. From this perspective there is nothing to argue about. We need to acquire perspective. The arguments then can be enjoyed on the secular board concerning itself with the validity of each piece. Where the secular seeks to rationalize this into community, the esoteric seeks to allow the individual to transcend community not for its condemnation but to eventually create the esoteric understanding of “As above, so below.” This is why community would not be the primary issue on the esoteric board but simply who we are and how we understand each other as we currently reside and interact in Plato’s cave in the context of our potential. The word in a nutshell that allows for such progressive discussion is of course “humility.”
No. What kind of objective answer is possible for people in Plato’s cave? We may not be able to answer but we can learn how to question and be accepted for questioning with sincerity of a greater depth than what comes from shallow egotism. A person can only think as deeply as they feel. How then to help each other feel the question?
Yes, this is the trouble. Hopefully there are some that are gradually becoming disappointed with arguing. Can enough people be found in adition that are willing to sacrifice this sacred cow of self importance for the sake of one board? They really wouldn’t be sacrificing anything since they can make up for it on the secular board and really give em hell.
There is no need for a seperate division within the religion forum. Issues within the general concepts of religion include both spiritual as well as secular discussion, often inextricably tied together. As Pax pointed out, questions of who are we? and questions of how shall we live? are interdependant, and valid if sometimes contentious points of discussion. It isn’t about ‘arguing’ right or wrong, but different points of view that make themselves apparent in the religion forum.
Nick,
I invite you to look up the definition of reification. For all of your talk of Plato’s cave, the ‘corrupt ego’, the ‘great beast’, and ‘experts’ you seem to fail to see yourself in the mirror. A news flash: You aren’t the only person who has seen the illusions. That some have moved past it and are engaged in other issues seems to be lost on you. It’s true that several of us that post regularly in the religion forum have given up trying to get past your intellectualizing of spiritual understanding. Oh well. (shrug)
I would suggest that anyone who feels the need to discuss ‘esoteric’ christianity make their way to the chat room that has been re-opened. You can visit to your hearts content there without being interrupted by those of different perspectives. A thread inviting participation in the chat room, posted in the religion forum would allow all those uncomfortable with the religion forum a new place to be without creating yet another division within ILP at large.
Now you’ll get a good look at the situation and why the request for the separate board .
Do any of you lurkers enjoy a hot bath? If you do, you know that it requires hot water. Suppose I told you that this wasn’t fair and biased against cold water. To really appreciate a bath you need a healthy blend of hot and cold water and dwell in the comforts of a luke warm bath rather than the one sided appreciation of the hot bath.
This is precisely what is being asked for. The idea is to blend the esoteric (hot) with the secular (cold) to create a mixture (luke warm) that is meaningless for those in search of the experiential hot bath of reality.
Extreme self importance is precisely the opposite of the essential experience of ones nothingness spoken of in all the ancient traditions. They simply cannot be blended because the blended creation is impotent for understanding the hold of imagination described in these ancient traditions and in Plato’s cave allegory.
Tentative feels that the insights of Plato, Simone Weil, Meister Eckhart and the like are only significant enough to warrant a chat room.
This is supreme self importance. He hasn’t a clue as to the depth and importance of the ideas brought by such people. I do because I would probably be dead without them. It isn’t just esoteric Christianity but esoteric Buddhism and the Gita for example. The same ideas are in all. Yet to him, contemplating such ideas is only worthy of a chat room.
There is no respect for the humility inherent in the esoteric perspective. Self importance will not allow it. Just suggesting that one isn’t what they think they are brings the most harsh replies. Notice that the mere mention that he is victim to what I admit to which is being influenced by self deception natural for life in Plato’s cave is highly insulting and cannot be tolerated. How, in the presence of such negativity, can the attitude necessary to inspire openness and sincerity ever be established that invites the mutual appreciation of our nothingness?. It cannot. Yes it is hard and not for those that enjoy the pleasant effects of dream land. All you have to do is consider the effects of television and on people’s imaginations But if you seek the realities of life and the joys and meaning that come with it from the esoteric perspective of the quality of our own being, one must out grow la la land. Consider how Simone Weil puts it:
This is what a person faces when they realize they are living in Plato’s cave. Are we willing to experience the hard and rough for the sake of the experience of “meaning”? For most it is better with the normal pleasantries and arguments and luke warm water. It is easier to speak in platitudes of world peace and universal love than it is to experience and admit our lack so as to build from it. This is why the right atmosphere is necessary to share on our experiences of the ancient esoteric truths.
Jacob Needleman became sensitive to this need in children:
Prof. Needleman saw this sensitivity to ridicule in children but it is in all of us. Simone Weil is right in that it is hard to face but it can be done but can you see how important the atmosphere is in admitting the truth as opposed to celebrating a dream.
Yes, this is a religious hypothesis that we become open to validate through “Know Thyself”. it’s called the spiritual search. The basis of the Esoteric Religious board would be open to the hypothesis that we can be more than we think we are and it is through our own self deception that we deny ourselves of this understanding. The esoteric aspect of religion is to experience oneself as opposed to the exoteric or secular that mixes with politics for example. It cannot be communicated to others but our experiences with it can be shared. Again, it isn’t right or wrong, but sharing experience in the context of our vulnerability to self deception.
Notice how Tentative has moved past illusion and is now engaged in other issues. Its like he joined the Blues Brothers and is on a mission from God.
Yes they have given upon my intellectualizing about Plato’s cave or introducing Simone Weil and Meister Eckhart because they all suggest that man’s being is capable of more than he knows. It is this self importance that denies seeing it so it is condemned.
But still the esoteric traditions continue and as you can see, the attitudes on the board make meaningful exchange on the human condition impossible since they threaten self importance.
But as I said, my exposure to them has been very important for me and I am open to sharing on them and learning from other’s experiences with those interested but it requires its own board that respects their existence and the mutual need those sensitive to them have for them. It has to be done right or it is not worth doing.
No, this is what you face, after realising you live in Plato’s cave. Others to have come to see that the world around them as a mere façade and the light that flickers is just as unreliable as the shadows it cases. The cave walls are also so rough that it degrades the quality of the shadows being viewed. Because life can be tough some people like to view this world as a valley of tears. But not everybody would agree with that view. It comes down to how lucky or unlucky they might have been in their lives.
Why does this have to be hard and rough? Some people believe that if knowledge is not won at a price it has little value, as they invested very little to get it. Likewise some people invest a great deal to learn something that might only be trivial, but because this knowledge came at a high price they prize it more then an intellectual unbiased mind would.
When most people talk of such things its aspiration, they hope someday the world could be like this. There is no one at the moment who could create such a world, as to be able to create such a world would require enormous multitudes of people to change their views on live. The person would have to incredibly persuasive and would need to face up to the challenge of those who didn’t want such a world. Most people want money and power, it can be very difficult to a quire them under those conditions.
No this is just your way. I’m not being antagonistic here, just pointing out that everybody views these things differently. All you have to go on is your experiences of such things. I don’t agree with a lot of your opinions on esoteric, not because they are wrong as obviously they’re right from your experience on the world, but not mine. You talked about the ‘Rose Coloured Glass’, everybody wears them and while we hope that the rose tint mightn’t be as strong in our pair, we can never be sure just now much of what we believe is real and how much are the glasses.
To find a teaching that brings meaning to life is a wonderful gift. The problem is, if you want to share that gift you will have to learn to tolerate the ignorance of others. Everybody is coming to a discussion from their own point of view, there’s no to ways about it and we need to make allowances for it. While I agree, to be able to post in the knowledge that no one will ridicule your beliefs or views is a great idea, yet in practice its just not going to happen. The reason esoteric is esoteric is because only small numbers of people can come to agree on what they believe. Here’s an example:
My brother-in-law is involved in a cult which works out of Australia (but he and my sister + 5 children live in Ireland). Their leader has visions from God and The Blessed Virgin Mary is his Spouse, yes you read that right he’s married to Mary! He gets visions about once a month mostly about how evil the world is and that we must all pray for our souls and the souls of others. He’s also a great man for the Prophesy, to bad he never gets it right or is so vague that almost anything will fulfil it. Although one vision he got spot on, he is going to have 12 wives and 70 princesses. What a lucky man that god should favour him so much. The fact that one of the 70 princesses was only 15 didn’t bother him, such is his faith in the Lord. But unfortunately for him the meddling police think he’s some kind of sexual pervert and not a respectable man about the community. It’s amazing that the police could mix up somebody so holy with somebody so depraved??? It must be the devils work! Also did I forget to mention that my brother-in-law was made a Priest by this man???
While I’ve be very flippant about all this, it’s deadly serious. If people’s ideas go unchanged this is where it can all end up! My brother-in-law is adamant in his belief, everybody else things he is a lunatic. Who’s right? We could be mistaken and this so called prophet could be the real deal. He’s made enough people believe in him. Or are the only people he has converted to his world view those that already want to view the world in that way?
It’s through being changed that we can refine our beliefs and understand them clearer and more deeply. To paraphrase something Plato also wrote, “It’s those who show you your faults that you should consider your real friends, as they help you to improve.â€
This is the difference between the secular and esoteric approach. Secular deals with better or worse in the context of daily life. The esoteric deals with limiting effects of attachment on the inner man; a concept within all the great traditions. From this perspective the transient occurrences we define as lucky or unlucky are the same and equal in relation to our attachment and dependence on them. If one seeks the pearl of great price, it means not favoring one over the other through psychological dependence. If it is not a concern than it is best to stick with the transient secular and let your imagination create your own reality.
If you ever struggle against your dependence on pre-conditioned reactions in search of unconditioned experience, you’ll see the benefit of hard and rough on your natural inclination to imagine rather than openly experience. Again, it depends on ones aim. If the aim is for inner freedom, you have to inwardly and impartially verify what denies it. One only begins to learn how difficult it is and respect the ancient traditions other than in platitudes when one tries it.
Yes, all this belongs on the secular board. Those of us willing to admit we are denizens of Plato’s cave know it is impossible. This is why the first practical consideration is how to get an experience of life outside the cave which is the goal of the esoteric board
There is no problem tolerating ignorance simply because as I’ve said, those that understand our nothingness in comparison to potential are free to admit our ignorance. It is however useless and actually harmful to try and argue about this with people convinced of their own greatness. It creates unnecessary psychological blocks natural for defending such a threatening assertion. It’s not a matter of believing one thing oranother but the realization that beliefs mean nothing. What knowledge can a sleeping man have in the esoteric sense. So the agreement isn’t on a belief but simply that we are in Plato’s cave where beliefs are equal in their illusion.
All a teaching can initially bring if it is authentic is the opportunity to find the inner direction and the strength to become open to face self deception and to verify it. Putting new wine into old bottles is no good for the wine or the bottles.
There is nothing esoteric in the real sense in what you are describing. Relating objectively to the inner man requires consciousness and the retention of impartiality. We have neither so it is something we strive towards. The cults you describe are created through the manipulation of fear and egotism. Dependence and self esteem is created through directed imagination. Unconscious or imaginary partiality manifesting as self importance is exactly the opposite of attempts at conscious impartiality beginning with humility which is not fear based. The charlatan tells you how wonderful you are and the master says you are nothing. It is no wonder then that the esoteric view is a minority but the fact that it is a minority does not deny its worth or should be denied its rightful place in philosophy as described by Prof. Needleman.
So to really appreciate Plato’s quote that you posted, I believe you must know the different connotations of change. In pursuit of ontological verification it can only mean in the direction of the pearl of great price. Other change is transient and just turns in cycles lawful to nature’s way though it feels good going down as does good scotch.
To change in the esoteric traditions first means beginning to distinguish the real from the imaginary within oneself. This is where sharing becomes valuable since we all have the same struggle and it is foolish to argue one illusion over the other. All we can do is see it for what it is.
These two different aims of religious thought: the esoteric and secular are so different in their aims that they must be separate to retain any value. Theoretically it is not true but all the distortion that exists within both makes it a practical necessity.
When you meet someone better than yourself, turn your thoughts to becoming his equal. When you meet someone not as good as you are, look within and examine your own self.
Yes, this is the purpose of the esoteric Religion board contrasted with the secular religion board. Where the secular is concerned with past and future manifesting as ideals of world peace, universal love and the like in condemnation of others who are skeptical of their actualization, the esoteric concerns itself with the quality of “now” and how we experience it in relation to human inner esoteric potential as our quality of human “being.” The realization of the nature of human “being” as in our own “being” will come into conflict with our wishful thinking.
It is the esoteric religious board that will allow and encourage such impartial inner revelation through sincere sharing rather than the normal selectivity, ridicule, and condemnation normal for idealism and secular right and wrong.
Again, I’m not asking anyone to abandon the secular approach. I know all this wishful thinking and condemnation is fun for many. I’m only asserting the need for a board that furthers the essence of religion which is the esoteric knowledge of the inner man and its potential when free of dependance on imagination for those that feel its value.
Is what I’m suggesting so different than the division of the Philosophy boards? The division is based on acknowledging difference in attitudes.
This is the same. The way it is now makes religious discussion impossible for me or any others with similar interests do discuss Arjuna’s question in the Gita for example as it relates to our own life.
I am suggesting a board to take into consideration similar differences in attitude and goal.
If it doesn’t happen it just limits my posts to certain topics on other boards. If it does happen it may become beneficial for those that are attracted to the deeper realities of the esoteric traditions as we pool our understandings and experiences. It could become a unique and meaningful board.
We shall see. At least I know I’ve tried for something good.
The only self importance here is yours. There is only one perspective tolerated - yours. That’s the crux of this thread. It isn’t about ‘ancient esoteric’ ideas ,which anyone can entertain, it’s about seeing those ideas from your perspective. That’s what you’re about, and that’s why you want a division of the religion forum. You want your own playhouse. It isn’t and never was about the ideas, it was always about your particular view of those ideas. You’re so caught up in the pride and arrogance of ‘not knowing’ that you fail to accept the simple fact that others just might have a different way of seeing the same thing you purport to see.
To quote another famous authority: “Give it up. It’s not going to happen.”
Again you miss the point. The only perspective being asserted is the one stressed by all the ancient traditions and that is our “nothingness.” It is foolish to define it as my perspective since man’s self deception has been known since the beginning. This is the essential perspective of the ancient traditions and the esoteric side of all religions.
The secular or exoteric in contrast stresses our self importance and our imagined abilities of unconditional love, world peace, conversations with God, defining God and all the rest. This is a basic division
You simply cannot associate my defense of this basic of all esoteric principles as some sort of self importance or “my” perspective" because I’m willing right now as always to deny my self importance.
Look at YOUR attitudes towards my assertion. Here is a reply by me to your post and your reply in turn to me:
There is nothing wrong with questioning self deception. We all need help with inner self knowledge whether we admit to it or not and that includes me. Yet it is highly insulting for you. It will be though natural for the esoteric board. Its sincerity requires such questioning. How we verify is a basic question. Yet on the secular board it would rarely be questioned simply because its continuation requires its denial so its ridicule will be immediate.
There is no division of people but only the necessary division of attitudes and aims in accordance with the purposes of both boards.
In Buddhism the one who believes there are masters are the initiates. Those with the dharma would call none master. Any teacher that claims to be such is a charlatan that lacks enlightenment. Those who talk do not know and those that know stay silent. In essence it’s the fools who teach enlightenment through their folly as the masters are fair removed from this whole process.
Haha, one who suffers from scepticism would find this quite amusing. How can you tell what is real and what is just imagination?
But we don’t all have the same struggle, only certain groups share a similar struggle but it’s not the same. Yes we can all talk about the shadows on the walls but we all see them differently. Those that leave the cave are left blinded by the light of the sun and can’t see anything for a while, as the light is just too strong for them. Aftertime their eyes adjust and vision is restored. But as soon as they go back into the cave all becomes darkness again as their eyes again have to adjust.
This site is called I Love Philosophy, etymologically speaking, I Love the Love of Wisdom. Not I love uncritical thinking or unopposed ideas. What’s the point in expressing what you believe you are unless somebody else can validate it? Actually the worst person to ask and then answer the question ‘Who am I’ is ourselves. We view ourselves in a completely biases light. It’s impossible to be anyway objective about ourselves. It’s been noticed by “objective standard†in mental health that those who believe they are always right and understand completely how the world works are normal delusional and when pressed on a matter that they know as 100% fact are unable to then give account of their beliefs they just calm it is so. Uncritical thinking is a by-product of their madness. You have a better chance of knowing oneself if you go and take a personality test then just posting what you believe to be you in an unopposed manner. Although you won’t accept this now, you will move beyond esoteric teaching if you continue the search for self. What if I where to post in an esoteric board that I am the second coming of the Messiah & Buddha? Would anyone just blindly accept this without any critical thought? Or would they demand that I give account of myself?
Finally I really don’t think this is the right site for your style of esoteric forum. It’s not that people want to be outright confrontational they just want to understand your thinking behind your held beliefs and through this “argument†learn more about you and themselves. You can’t gain anything without some from of confrontation. Be it a confrontation with somebody on this site or our own inner struggles fighting the daemons and devils in the hope to transform ourselves into something we as yet can’t put into words. I hope you find the forum you need.
That is the importance of beginning to see ones nothingness. All I’m suggesting is a board that begins with that premise lacking the necessity to defend our imagined self importance… It’s a way of helping each other come to grips with what we are.
Quite true. Verification is an important topic and can only be shared in an environment of mutual respect…
Again you’re mixing the esoteric with the exoteric. The struggle is with ourselves. In this way it is the same struggle. What does this have to do with groups? All sincere people can do is compare results. When we become honest we begin to see why we don’t leave the cave.
The aim isn’t to assert what we are. It comes from the position that we don’t know and try to become open to the question.? All we can do is to admit the nature of our transient states. Others express theirs and we compare their effects… This is essential wisdom, applied critical thought, and getting to know each other.
This would belong on the secular board. The esoteric board deals with coming to grips with our nothingness in relation to human potential. How can we get the courage to"know thyself" What do Messiahs and Buddhas have to do with this? It is naive to blindly trust
You’re speaking of something different. Confrontation is the result of our personalities. Changing our personalities can result from confrontation and useful on the secular board. The esoteric board seeks the truth behind confrontation and requires the objective sincere efforts of its participants to become open and non-confrontational. It is sharing without pretense. It is accepting the wisdom of discussion over confrontation in matters of the heart. It is the natural attitude for one who has experienced the truth behind the parable of the Burning House in Buddhism This is how we really begin to understand each other’s thinking. It allows philosophy to regain meaning as described by Prof, Neeedleman above.
If Ben agrees that there is no place on ILP for people to discuss the love of wisdom contained in the ancient traditions with the mutual respect it deserves, then, considering the attitudes, I’ll only appear on select occasions but avoid the religion board while trying to build on this idea in a different forum which I believe can become meaningful for any genuine feeling/thinking human being willing to experience outside the box.
