Coronavirus Hoax

Again, the problem here is that both sides can make reasonable arguments. But neither side is able to encompass a complete understanding of the coronavirus itself. You can talk about the freedom to congregate with others, not wear a mask, reopen your business. But if you are wrong about the virus and get infected that can easily collide with the freedom of others not to become infected by your very own interpretation of freedom.

Unless of course you are able to establish beyond all doubt that the numbers here… worldometers.info/coronavirus/

…are just part and parcel of a liberal hoax to create a New World Order run by the United Nations.

We’ll see how things go, I don’t think the technocratic left are going to stop, for they told us they wouldn’t, they said they wouldn’t fully (only partly and temporarily) release us till a vaxx is released and most, if not all of us get it.
And even if we force them to stop, there’ll be another false flag in a few months or years.
I don’t think they will stop until at the very least they’ve regained the power they lost, if ever, they may try to take it all the way to the end this time.

People are seeing this event as a dot, I’m seeing it as part of a picture.
They went after Brett Kavanaugh with the Christine Blasey Ford false flag.
Then they went after Trump and his administration with the Russiagate false flag.
Now they’re going after the right and all of us with this.
Of course I could be wrong, but nonetheless I think they’re only going to accelerate and intensify.

I think there are multiple reasons for the lockdown, and not all of them negative… perhaps it is the
LLL and Crony Capitalists that need to keep up with (the) Change(s)?

This is absolutely true. According to the US Bureau of Economic Analysis, GDP fell $191.2 billion in Q1 2020. Q2 will probably be worse, and estimates of the total cost when it’s all over are $1-2trillion.

For comparison, I did some math around the value on the other side of the scale: the dollar value of lives lost to COVID (see spreadsheet here), and my quick and dirty estimate is that the value of life lost from COVID in the US is at least $8 billion, and may be higher than $20 billion.

My method is very rough, and I can think of a few ways that it can be improved, but here is how I arrived at those numbers:
I found life expectancy data from the Social Security Administration, which shows how many years of life a person of a given age can expect. I couldn’t find national demographics for COVID deaths by age, so I used NY death demographics as a proxy. Since their numbers are in age bands, I averaged the life expectancy for all the ages in a band, and I used the male life expectancy because 1) men die more frequently from COVID, and 2) men don’t live as long. To exclude those who would have died anyway, I used the %, I used the numbers for people who either don’t have a preexisting condition or for whom it is unknown whether or not they have a preexisting condition. That gave me [average years left] * [number dead (60966 on 4/30)] = [total lost years]. I then found estimates for the value of a year of life. There was significant variation, but I did the math for both $50k and $129k: [value of a year of life] * [total lost years] = [dollar cost of loss of life]. The result is $8,517,131,122.25, assuming $50k per life-year, and $21,974,198,295.41 assuming 129k per life-year.

Issues with this approach:
As the wiki page points out, there are better ways to estimate lives in dollars, but I don’t know how to do the estimate using QALYs. On the one hand, my estimate may overestimate the true cost, because it treats life-years for all ages as equal in value, which we can be pretty sure they aren’t.

On the other hand, I exclude the majority of deaths completely, which is definitely wrong, and probably orders of magnitude larger in effect: deaths with preexisting conditions under 65 are about a quarter of all deaths, and most of those will have a non-zero number of years left. I’ve basically treated those people as already dead.

Generalizing from the NY data probably isn’t perfect.

Using only the male data isn’t perfect, and under-counts the cost by 1-5 years per person.

The cost in lost GDP is for Q1, but most deaths tool place in Q2.

The cost in lost GDP includes the cost of both the loss of life and the lockdown-generated economic collapse.

Some additional questions:

  • How many lives has lockdown saved? How many lives will it save? This estimates cost of what has happened, not what would have happened. If we think the lockdown has cut deaths in half, it’s a very different outcome from what it would be if we think it was only cut by 5%.

  • What percent of the loss of GDP is caused by formal lockdown, as opposed to voluntary social distancing? Sweden, the poster child for a less mandatory approach, still saw a 75% drop in movement. Does that mean that formal lockdowns are only responsible for the difference between that and whatever results they’re seeing? Note also that Sweden’s approach doesn’t seem to have improved its economic outcomes (their economic losses are projected to be larger than Denmark and Norway, who have more aggressive lockdowns – would like to know Gloominary’s reaction to this as well).

What do you mean by odd, and what specifically is it that you find odd? We’re in the middle of a once-a-century pandemic, so by many definitions everything about the current global situation is odd. Given that we’re in a pandemic, how likely is it that it was first identified in a city with a research laboratory dedicated to studying this kind of virus? That depends on how many such laboratories there are, how many of them are in places where diseases with pandemic potential are likely to jump from animals to people, how much likely such a disease is to be in an area where an above average part of the population is an expert in the disease that’s identified, etc.

Here is an article from 2006, about how multiple infectious disease labs were built in the area of China in which the 2003 SARS epidemic began, not too distant from Wuhan. Is that odd?

For US funding, what percent of labs that do this kind of work are US funded? We hear a lot about the Wuhan lab, but given that a lab is studying this kind of disease, how likely is it that the US is funding them? The CDC spent more than $600m in 2019 on “Emerging and Zoonotic Infectious Diseases”, of which about $750k went to the Wuhan lab ($3.7m over 5 years). Presumably some part of the remaining >$599,250,000 went to other labs, probably also located in parts of the world that have generated multiple potential pandemics in the past decade. Given that there’s a lab in a city with an outbreak, how likely is it that it’s a US-funded lab? Seems pretty likely.

As I said earlier, “I think the evidence justifies some suspicion that the origin of the pandemic is the lab.” I don’t think it justifies a strong belief about this, and I don’t think the US government connection is particularly meaningful.

I think there’s only one reason for the lockdown, it’s a technocratic and Marxist takeover, and it’s mostly negative.
We do need to get rid of the crony capitalists and either replace them with real capitalists like Maxime Bernier in Canada and Rand Paul in the US, or with social democrats, not with technocrats and Marxists, which’s what this is.

The people making these changes to our society are globalists, not nationalists, even tho it makes sense to shut down borders under their plandemic narrative, they’re finding excuses to keep borders open, shut down our local food production or divert it overseas and replace our local food with food from the 3rd world.
They’re using this as much as they can to promote globalism, not nationalism.

I think there’s only one reason for the lockdown, it’s a technocratic and Marxist takeover, and it’s mostly negative.
We do need to get rid of the crony capitalists and either replace them with real capitalists like Maxime Bernier in Canada and Rand Paul in the US, or with social democrats, not with technocrats and Marxists, which’s what this is.
[/quote]
You mean since D Trump became Pres, or a continuation of the takeover process without having had a reprieve?

Isn’t the US Government accountable in fulfilling their manifesto to a certain degree, or percentage of it? I don’t think they can govern with might-is-right, and how can a more Socialistic governance style be implemented via a Republican one? A mixed one perhaps… sure.

Are you glad you’re Canadian? :smiley:

A’la EU stylee, and look how that worked out.

They obviously want to build links and be inna with these countries, at the expense of the US people and industries… they want a piece of that Third-world economical-growth pie. Trade-blocking China from building major roads and whatnot, but it would be a happier picture if US citizens were also benefiting from these new trade deals and changes. That aspect is crazy, I agree…

Gloominary, Carleas: WHO now approves of Sweden’s approach…
foxnews.com/world/who-swede … -the-world

Another perspective: slate.com/news-and-politics/202 … ncing.html

The irony being that many antigovernment reactionaries who applaud Sweden’s policies here have no problem at all in castigating a lot of other policies. Sweden is not called one of Europe’s most egregious “nanny states” for nothing.

In the end, the numbers will tell. Either Sweden will achieve their vaunted “herd immunity” and accept the number of citizens that will die along the way, or, as with Boris Johnson in England, who once embraced it himself, the numbers will eventually spike to the point that greater restrictions on social interaction are established.

Either way, the extremists on “the pandemic is a hoax” end of the political spectrum won’t budge an inch. And why should they? They are, after all, never, ever wrong. About, well, anything.

Suppose my house and my neighbor’s house are on fire due to a problem with the electrical system. My response is to put out the fire. My neighbor’s response is to upgrade their electrical system while the house still burns. I mention to a friend that upgrading the electrical system is something that needs to happen long term after the fire is out.

Fox News: "Carleas says upgrading electrical system while house still on fire is the what “needs to happen”.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but it looks like it’s just one of the WHO’s top officials that approves of Sweden’s approach, not the WHO itself.

There’s some things I prefer about Canada, like our social healthcare (even tho I rarely use it, it’s nice to know it’s there), legal marijuana (even tho I don’t smoke it) and we generally get along with everyone internationally and intranationally, but there’s some things I prefer about the US, like their lax gun laws (we just had a mass shooting here and unfortunately Justin Trudeau is using it as a pretext to try to ban semi-autos).

Ultimately It’s up to the American people to decide whether they want social healthcare or not democratically, it’s not something that should be forced on them along with radical leftwing agendas.

It didn’t work out for them but only because we pushed back, just as we must push back now.
For me the bottom line is, I don’t want meat from the 3rd world.

MagsJ wrote:

"A’la EU stylee, and look how that worked out.

They obviously want to build links and be inna with these countries, at the expense of the US people and industries… they want a piece of that Third-world economical-growth pie. Trade-blocking China from building major roads and whatnot, but it would be a happier picture if US citizens were also benefiting from these new trade deals and changes. That aspect is crazy, I agree…"

{I can’t agree more
Euro centrism of say, 1500 plus years of dominance , can not be that easily whisked away.}

More like 500 years, the middle ages were more Islamocentric and Sinocentric.

And of course much of Europe’s involvement in the 3rd world, didn’t benefit the 3rd world, nor the working people of Europe, but increasingly international and supranational corporations and institutions, which’s why globalization should largely be opposed.

Stanford study concludes that death rate from Covid19 no different from regular flu. More people get it than the flu, but the death % is not greater.

reason.com/2020/04/17/covid-19- … new-study/

From the linked article :

There is a great deal of evidence that death that are not related to covid are being batched as covid. Earlier Carleas accused Gloominary of being influenced only or in the main by conspiracy sites. But more and more conventional sources of information are disagreeing with what has previously been presented in the media.

Here’s the original study from Stanford (hardly a conspiracy source…

reason.com/2020/04/17/covid-19- … new-study/
Here’s what one doctor at Stanford concludes from the above study AND from data from NYC

thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/ … lation?amp