Did sin enter the world through Adam, Satan or Yahweh?

[Arcturus Descending]

Felix,

I'm sorry you felt insulted by my words. I was merely analyzing the garden of Eden story structurally instead of looking at the characters as if they were historical persons. That interpretation was superimposed on the story later by Christian theologians.

No need to apologize as I was not the least bit insulted. I kind of thought that it was funny and I was surprised.

The writers of the Hebrew Bible didn't have the Christian view that people would burn in hell for eternity.

This I did not know though. So where did they have them going after death?

[Ecmandu]

I’ll jump in again to simply state that the human narrative on earth is excrement... it’s shit.

Our task is to obliterate that. Not by eating the shit and getting used to it (which many people on earth will brag about)

But to get rid of the shit entirely.

Then we can laugh at all these people who think they’re more badass than everyone because they acclimated themselves to eating shit!

“Dude, you ate shit! You didn’t have to! LOL! How stupid do you feel now!”

I’ve seen many posters on this board brag about eating shit.

[felix dakat]

Felix,

I'm sorry you felt insulted by my words. I was merely analyzing the garden of Eden story structurally instead of looking at the characters as if they were historical persons. That interpretation was superimposed on the story later by Christian theologians.

No need to apologize as I was not the least bit insulted. I kind of thought that it was funny and I was surprised.

The writers of the Hebrew Bible didn't have the Christian view that people would burn in hell for eternity.

This I did not know though. So where did they have them going after death?

A place called Sheol which was much like the Greek Hades

[felix dakat]

Felix,

I'm sorry you felt insulted by my words. I was merely analyzing the garden of Eden story structurally instead of looking at the characters as if they were historical persons. That interpretation was superimposed on the story later by Christian theologians.

No need to apologize as I was not the least bit insulted. I kind of thought that it was funny and I was surprised.

OK. Glad you didn't feel insulted.

[Aware-ness]

I'm sorry you felt insulted by my words. I was merely analyzing the garden of Eden story structurally instead of looking at the characters as if they were historical persons. The writers of the Hebrew Bible didn't have the Christian view that people would burn in hell for eternity. That interpretation was superimposed on the story later by Christian theologians.

Methinks as was/is the fall and original sin.

[felix dakat]

I'm sorry you felt insulted by my words. I was merely analyzing the garden of Eden story structurally instead of looking at the characters as if they were historical persons. The writers of the Hebrew Bible didn't have the Christian view that people would burn in hell for eternity. That interpretation was superimposed on the story later by Christian theologians.

Methinks as was/is the fall and original sin.

Exactly. Which doesn't necessarily make the interpretation wrong. Interpretations change with time and circumstances. Apart from the Genesis account Hebrew Bible largely ignores the Adam and Eve story. But it became a big deal beginning in the first century of the common era and extending up to the present time as evidenced by the number of times it comes up on this forum for instance. I've already given my interpretation based on evolutionary psychology which is that the story is about the emergence of self consciousness. Under the category of sin are many of the impulses, drives and behaviors associated with being a primate. Humans were primates before they became self-conscious. So the idea that" sin entered" has it backwards. Sin was already there, unrecognized until people became self-conscious about it. Their shame at their nakedness in the story is tied up with the recognition that they are animals... apes without much hair. Buckminster Fuller had a theory that humans were once semi-aquatic living on beaches close to bodies of water where food was abundant and easy to catch. He thought that would explain our lack of hair and our flipper like feet, our salty tears etc. Of course the dominant theory is that we spent most of our evolutionary history on the African veldt.

[Ierrellus]

The idea of Hell as eternal punishment is attributed to Augustine. I agree with Felix that the so-called Fall was a fall into self consciousness. The characters in the Eden story are metaphors for evolving parts of the human psyche. Serpent=the primitive urges; Eve=the urging for action; Adam=action taken. The tripartite psyche aligns with Paul MacLean's theory of brain evolution. Our myths cannot be divorced from our evolutionary experience, which is replayed at every development from a fertilized egg to an adult. For Paul MacLean's theory see Carl Sagan's "The Dragons of Eden."

[Ierrellus]

For an archetypal myth to persist, as does the story of the Fall, it must refer to a basic human experience.

[MagsJ]

Or lol, why did they create corona virus, or any virus, in the first place.

Oh right, we sinned probably.

But then, why did the gods make us to be capable of sin..?

Oh right, that would violate free-will.

But hang on. Gods don't have to obey paltry human logic. So they could have engineered a universe where humanity has free-will, and yet still cannot sin. Because mysteriousness.

Those gods yeah. Tch. What a bunch of bastards.

In an ideal world of abundant plenty there would be no sin.. or kept to a minimal at least, and unnecessary want of individual hoarding of resource only serves to worsen the situation.. trace history back to that point, and you’ve got your answer.

I think the OP may be eluding that it started with the revering of gods.. designed to coerce its citizens into a false state of contentment, because god’s got this for you.. they’ve got this, so sit back, relax, and simply pray to god for whatever you need, and if you don’t get it you’ve obviously been sinning.

[felix dakat]

For an archetypal myth to persist, as does the story of the Fall, it must refer to a basic human experience.

Apparently. The myth of the Fall appears elsewhere in world mythology. For example...

Adapa, in Mesopotamian mythology, legendary sage and citizen of the Sumerian city of Eridu, the ruins of which are in southern Iraq. Endowed with vast intelligence by Ea (Sumerian: Enki), the god of wisdom, Adapa became the hero of the Sumerian version of the myth of the fall of man. The myth relates that Adapa, in spite of his possession of all wisdom, was not given immortality. One day, while he was fishing, the south wind blew so violently that he was thrown into the sea. In his rage he broke the wings of the south wind, which then ceased to blow. Anu (Sumerian: An), the sky god, summoned him before his gates to account for his behaviour, but Ea cautioned him not to touch the bread and water that would be offered him. When Adapa came before Anu, the two heavenly doorkeepers Tammuz and Ningishzida interceded for him and explained to Anu that as Adapa had been endowed with omniscience he needed only immortality to become a god. Anu, in a change of heart, then offered Adapa the bread and water of eternal life, which he refused to take. Thus mankind remained mortal. The legend is preserved among the cuneiform tablets discovered during the 19th century in Ashurbanipal’s library at Nineveh.https://www.britannica.com/topic/Adapa#ref704420

and in Plato's Phaedrus

Such is the life of the gods; but of other souls, that which follows God best and is likest to him lifts the head of the charioteer into the outer world, and is carried round in the revolution, troubled indeed by the steeds, and with difficulty beholding true being; while another only rises and falls, and sees, and again fails to see by reason of the unruliness of the steeds. The rest of the souls are also longing after the upper world and they all follow, but not being strong enough they are carried round below the surface, plunging, treading on one another, each striving to be first; and there is confusion and perspiration and the extremity of effort; and many of them are lamed or have their wings broken through the ill-driving of the charioteers; and all of them after a fruitless toil, not having attained to the mysteries of true being, go away, and feed upon opinion. The reason why the souls exhibit this exceeding eagerness to behold the plain of truth is that pasturage is found there, which is suited to the highest part of the soul; and the wing on which the soul soars is nourished with this. And there is a law of Destiny, that the soul which attains any vision of truth in company with a god is preserved from harm until the next period, and if attaining always is always unharmed. But when she is unable to follow, and fails to behold the truth, and through some ill-hap sinks beneath the double load of forgetfulness and vice, and her wings fall from her and she drops to the ground, then the law ordains that this soul shall at her first birth pass, not into any other animal, but only into man; and the soul which has seen most of truth shall come to the birth as a philosopher, or artist, or some musical and loving nature; that which has seen truth in the second degree shall be some righteous king or warrior chief; the soul which is of the third class shall be a politician, or economist, or trader; the fourth shall be lover of gymnastic toils, or a physician; the fifth shall lead the life of a prophet or hierophant; to the sixth the character of poet or some other imitative artist will be assigned; to the seventh the life of an artisan or husbandman; to the eighth that of a sophist or demagogue; to the ninth that of a tyrant-all these are states of probation, in which he who does righteously improves, and he who does unrighteously, improves, and he who does unrighteously, deteriorates his lot.http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/phaedrus.html

[Greatest I am]

Hey Greatest,

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of religion, nor a practitioner, but I do accept that the rise and evolution of religions throughout history was inevitable as our societies grew and competed. To say "they are/were useless" is stress-inducing, because gives you a worse view of people in general than you need to have, and we all belong to the group 'people'.

I hated religion for a long time. Denied it, bargained with it, accepted it, now I've come to a point of forgiving it. I still know it's all baloney, but eh. You gotta move on.

Move on to what, when we still follow genocidal, homophobic and misogynous gods, whose religions still do so much harm to so many?

Gnostic Christianity has evolved while Christians are stuck in the idol worship of a satanic god.

Which religion is better.

Those who idol worship genocide or those who recognize that only a satanic god would be as vile as Yahweh, and only a satanic religion would idol worship such a vile god?

Regards
DL

[Greatest I am]

Jung's proposition that the gods are archetypes of the collective unconsciousness as evidenced by world mythology, dreams and other spontaneous imagery makes sense to me.

Logos always trumps mythos.

You are talking of Jung and Freud's Father Complex. Finding our father Complex is what Jesus called being born again.

Finding your Father Complex changes your whole paradigm.

Regards
DL

[Greatest I am]

I'm sorry you felt insulted by my words. I was merely analyzing the garden of Eden story structurally instead of looking at the characters as if they were historical persons. The writers of the Hebrew Bible didn't have the Christian view that people would burn in hell for eternity. That interpretation was superimposed on the story later by Christian theologians.

Methinks as was/is the fall and original sin.

The fall, that Christians also call a happy fault and necessary to god's plan.

If they did not follow Adam's lead, then they would derail god's plan.

IOW, Christians are screwed up in their ideology and thinking, coming and going.

Regards
DL

[Greatest I am]

For an archetypal myth to persist, as does the story of the Fall, it must refer to a basic human experience.

To call graduating from school a fall is not the bright thing to do.

Jews call it an elevation and Original Virtue, while Christians stupidly call getting educated evil and Original Sin.

Which do you see in Eden?

Regards
DL

[child_in_time]

child in time,

Eating from the tree was inevitable, and shouldn't be thought of as an eventful choice between two alternatives. Certain choices were available to them, but they did everything exactly as was expected of them.

Why do you say this?
That statement kind of points to God as a puppeteer in my opinion. If it was inevitable that they ate from the tree, it seems to me that they had no free will in the first place.

Well, perhaps in a sense, they did have free choice and made it. What responsibility belongs to God since this entity had knowledge of what they would do? You might think that a discussion between the three of them would have been fair before their God kicked them out of paradise.

Again I am interested in knowing why eating from the tree was inevitable? Basic curiosity of us humans? The inevitability of the Word having to come to pass?

The parable can be very confusing if one has no idea what it is about. The tendency for most is to interpret it literally, which gives one very little insight into what it is actually about.

The biggest error people make when trying to interpret this parable is they assume it is referring to historical events. The parable is concerned with certain historical events, but is better thought of as a prophecy. On the history side, you have the appearance of humans, and the judgement against them: "Thou is dust, and to dust thou shalt return." On the prophecy side, they would have a chance to appeal this judgement.

The Tree of Knowledge's purpose was to help humans understand themselves, so they would be able to defend themselves, once they finally got their day in court. The Tree of Knowledge is the wisdom of the serpent; she is given partial authority on earth, in order to impart this wisdom to humanity. After awhile, she is given full authority on Earth. This would be the beginning of a grace period for all of humanity, and provide humans with an opportunity to raise themselves up from the warring, homicidal beast from which they had evolved.

Once this grace period ends, the Destroyer rises up with her indictment against humanity. This indictment is also known as the Tree of Life, because by their answer to it, humanity is either redeemed, or condemned. Theoretically, if humans had chosen to remain ignorant, they would never have had to face the Court. The warning not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge is the prediction of this prophecy that humans would not be successful in their appeal, and therefore should try to postpone their court date indefinitely, by remaining ignorant. But we all know this simply wasn't possible. The basic nature of humans is and has always been to reach higher and higher.

[Aware-ness]

For an archetypal myth to persist, as does the story of the Fall, it must refer to a basic human experience.

Apparently. The myth of the Fall appears elsewhere in world mythology. For example...

Adapa, in Mesopotamian mythology, legendary sage and citizen of the Sumerian city of Eridu, the ruins of which are in southern Iraq. Endowed with vast intelligence by Ea (Sumerian: Enki), the god of wisdom, Adapa became the hero of the Sumerian version of the myth of the fall of man. The myth relates that Adapa, in spite of his possession of all wisdom, was not given immortality. One day, while he was fishing, the south wind blew so violently that he was thrown into the sea. In his rage he broke the wings of the south wind, which then ceased to blow. Anu (Sumerian: An), the sky god, summoned him before his gates to account for his behaviour, but Ea cautioned him not to touch the bread and water that would be offered him. When Adapa came before Anu, the two heavenly doorkeepers Tammuz and Ningishzida interceded for him and explained to Anu that as Adapa had been endowed with omniscience he needed only immortality to become a god. Anu, in a change of heart, then offered Adapa the bread and water of eternal life, which he refused to take. Thus mankind remained mortal. The legend is preserved among the cuneiform tablets discovered during the 19th century in Ashurbanipal’s library at Nineveh.https://www.britannica.com/topic/Adapa#ref704420

and in Plato's Phaedrus

Such is the life of the gods; but of other souls, that which follows God best and is likest to him lifts the head of the charioteer into the outer world, and is carried round in the revolution, troubled indeed by the steeds, and with difficulty beholding true being; while another only rises and falls, and sees, and again fails to see by reason of the unruliness of the steeds. The rest of the souls are also longing after the upper world and they all follow, but not being strong enough they are carried round below the surface, plunging, treading on one another, each striving to be first; and there is confusion and perspiration and the extremity of effort; and many of them are lamed or have their wings broken through the ill-driving of the charioteers; and all of them after a fruitless toil, not having attained to the mysteries of true being, go away, and feed upon opinion. The reason why the souls exhibit this exceeding eagerness to behold the plain of truth is that pasturage is found there, which is suited to the highest part of the soul; and the wing on which the soul soars is nourished with this. And there is a law of Destiny, that the soul which attains any vision of truth in company with a god is preserved from harm until the next period, and if attaining always is always unharmed. But when she is unable to follow, and fails to behold the truth, and through some ill-hap sinks beneath the double load of forgetfulness and vice, and her wings fall from her and she drops to the ground, then the law ordains that this soul shall at her first birth pass, not into any other animal, but only into man; and the soul which has seen most of truth shall come to the birth as a philosopher, or artist, or some musical and loving nature; that which has seen truth in the second degree shall be some righteous king or warrior chief; the soul which is of the third class shall be a politician, or economist, or trader; the fourth shall be lover of gymnastic toils, or a physician; the fifth shall lead the life of a prophet or hierophant; to the sixth the character of poet or some other imitative artist will be assigned; to the seventh the life of an artisan or husbandman; to the eighth that of a sophist or demagogue; to the ninth that of a tyrant-all these are states of probation, in which he who does righteously improves, and he who does unrighteously, improves, and he who does unrighteously, deteriorates his lot.http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/phaedrus.html

But these two myths, which may or may not apply, aren't as simply put or cute as the Adam story.

And outside of the statement of the author of the Britannica article -- unless I fail to understand it -- the Adapa myth is not exactly a story of the fall. However, "Possible parallels and connections [between Adapa and Adam] include similarity in names, including the possible connection of both the same word root; both myths include a test involving the eating of purportedly deadly food; and both are summoned before god to answer for their transgressions." - Wiki - so who's whomming who, so to ask? Who influenced who, Adapa, or Adam? or was the notion in general circulation in Mesopotamia.

Abraham came out of Sumer, where Adapa was a god. William Albright, in his book From Stone Age to Christiamity, speaks of Adapa in the 7th c. B.C.E, right around when the book of Genesis was taking shape.

But speaking from the stone age and the fall. Was the civilization of Sumer & Mesopotamia a fall from that age? It's touted as a great advancement from the stone age. Looking back from there, from developed civilization, I could understand that the hunter and gathering age looked like a time of 'Paradise,' a time of low population and lots of freely available food sources.

Okay, enough of that. I'm speaking of things we can't know with any degree of confidence.

But ya know, I have an axe to grind with this fall and original sin thing. I was raised with it, along with free will. When I came to think of it I had to ask : Where was my free will in being born with original sin? I had no will in it, free or otherwise.

Eventually I concluded it to be a bunch of bunkum ; that it was just trying to explain and excuse why we're human primates ; or brainy naked apes ; and no fall happened. If anything, we've evolved from "fallen" or less advanced times and human development, for hundreds of thousand years ; from neanderthals and before, onward, up to not as "fallen" today.

[Tab]

Hey Greatest,

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of religion, nor a practitioner, but I do accept that the rise and evolution of religions throughout history was inevitable as our societies grew and competed. To say "they are/were useless" is stress-inducing, because gives you a worse view of people in general than you need to have, and we all belong to the group 'people'.

I hated religion for a long time. Denied it, bargained with it, accepted it, now I've come to a point of forgiving it. I still know it's all baloney, but eh. You gotta move on.

Move on to what, when we still follow genocidal, homophobic and misogynous gods, whose religions still do so much harm to so many?

Gnostic Christianity has evolved while Christians are stuck in the idol worship of a satanic god.

Which religion is better.

Those who idol worship genocide or those who recognize that only a satanic god would be as vile as Yahweh, and only a satanic religion would idol worship such a vile god?

Regards
DL

The point to understand is, religion is not to blame for war, genocide, and persecution + you name it - when there is an axe murder, do you blame the axe..? Humans are to blame. We would have genocided, warred and persecuted anyway, it's in our nature. Religion just squirted a little nitro into the tank.

Is religion outdated and an increasingly negative influence..? Yes. Will we outgrow it..? Tough question - no, unless we seriously revamp worldwide education systems and eliminate some of the more disasterous symptoms of poverty and inequality.

[Greatest I am]

Hey Greatest,

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of religion, nor a practitioner, but I do accept that the rise and evolution of religions throughout history was inevitable as our societies grew and competed. To say "they are/were useless" is stress-inducing, because gives you a worse view of people in general than you need to have, and we all belong to the group 'people'.

I hated religion for a long time. Denied it, bargained with it, accepted it, now I've come to a point of forgiving it. I still know it's all baloney, but eh. You gotta move on.

Move on to what, when we still follow genocidal, homophobic and misogynous gods, whose religions still do so much harm to so many?

Gnostic Christianity has evolved while Christians are stuck in the idol worship of a satanic god.

Which religion is better.

Those who idol worship genocide or those who recognize that only a satanic god would be as vile as Yahweh, and only a satanic religion would idol worship such a vile god?

Regards
DL

The point to understand is, religion is not to blame for war, genocide, and persecution + you name it - when there is an axe murder, do you blame the axe..? Humans are to blame. We would have genocided, warred and persecuted anyway, it's in our nature. Religion just squirted a little nitro into the tank.

Is religion outdated and an increasingly negative influence..? Yes. Will we outgrow it..? Tough question - no, unless we seriously revamp worldwide education systems and eliminate some of the more disasterous symptoms of poverty and inequality.

We are almost there already if you believe the stats.

Education, via the U.N. that are promoting a universalist religions and schools, is already moving forward.

The more fascist religions like Christianity and Islam are slowing this evolution to a better way of thinking.

Fight those vile religions when you can.

Regards
DL

[Tab]

Education, via the U.N. that are promoting a universalist religions and schools, is already moving forward.

That's good news. I'd be happy if we taught critical thinking and behavioural/cognitive sciences, evolutionary theory and enough unwhitewashed real-world history to stamp out any romantic notions of the past. And screened for psychopaths and sub80IQ indicators at birth, or before.

[Greatest I am]

Education, via the U.N. that are promoting a universalist religions and schools, is already moving forward.

That's good news. I'd be happy if we taught critical thinking and behavioural/cognitive sciences, evolutionary theory and enough unwhitewashed real-world history to stamp out any romantic notions of the past. And screened for psychopaths and sub80IQ indicators at birth, or before.

I prefer a stronger comparative religion course so that fewer will stupidly believe in some supernatural genocidal prick like Yahweh while thinking him good.

The sooner all recognize that all religions are, are adult fairy tales, the sooner they will mature.

Regards
DL

[Exuberant Teleportation]

Sin has always existed, but there are some bright patches in existence, fabricating a slow humanity healing effort to uplift the planet's frequency, and thunder jolt boost us into a more loving family.

Then pure fantasy always exists too, where wishes always come true and, even if not in the most literal of ways, gives us joy.

I like Satan more than Yahweh, because Satan opens the door to the higher mysteries, fights really hard, and never forgives. With Yahweh, the door is always open, even if we did all of the wrong things.

True achievement is only open with Satan.

And I'm not saying to be evil or join a cult or something like that. I'm just saying that self empowerment is the 1st key.

[Aware-ness]

Education, via the U.N. that are promoting a universalist religions and schools, is already moving forward.

That's good news. I'd be happy if we taught critical thinking and behavioural/cognitive sciences, evolutionary theory and enough unwhitewashed real-world history to stamp out any romantic notions of the past. And screened for psychopaths and sub80IQ indicators at birth, or before.

I prefer a stronger comparative religion course so that fewer will stupidly believe in some supernatural genocidal prick like Yahweh while thinking him good.

The sooner all recognize that all religions are, are adult fairy tales, the sooner they will mature.

Regards
DL

Adult fairy tales written by flat-earthers.

[Greatest I am]

Sin has always existed, but there are some bright patches in existence, fabricating a slow humanity healing effort to uplift the planet's frequency, and thunder jolt boost us into a more loving family.

Then pure fantasy always exists too, where wishes always come true and, even if not in the most literal of ways, gives us joy.

I like Satan more than Yahweh, because Satan opens the door to the higher mysteries, fights really hard, and never forgives. With Yahweh, the door is always open, even if we did all of the wrong things.

True achievement is only open with Satan.

And I'm not saying to be evil or join a cult or something like that. I'm just saying that self empowerment is the 1st key.

The lying preachers will not like you. Good.

You are think8ng like a Jew. They have an Original Virtue interpretation of Eden where both man and god win, while the Christian take makes both god and man losers.

Strange that people could be forced to believe such an idiotic view, but not when you remember the inquisition that imposed that fools belief system.

Regards
DL

[Greatest I am]

[
Adult fairy tales written by flat-earthers.

Yes, and literally believed in by adult children who refuse to grow up.

Regards
DL

[MagsJ]

Re: weird facts
Postby MagsJ » Fri 20 Mar, 2020 21:51
To be superstitious is a sin, in the Catholic church.

Although the above isn’t actually taught as fact, it is evident throughout the RC faith as true, by the lack of its presence within the teachings of the faith.

Is it a case of.. eliminating religious superstition, eliminating sin?