church attendance has fallen to less then 50% USA

[Peter Kropotkin]

some recent polling has suggested that the church attendance in the U.S
has fallen below 50%... the evidence suggest that this began before IQ45 was
president.. and has increased ever since.....and to be honest, I believe
that the number is really much lower... people only seem to go to church
Easter and Christmas...and on any Sunday, the average attendance is most
likely below 25%....and that is based on the fact, that most churches are done
via zoom or some other virtual method these days...

I would be willing to bet that the attendance in Black churches is much higher
then in "white" churches....and much higher in the south and parts of the west, then
on the coasts, east or west...

and from my perspective, religion has been one of, if not the single most
destructive invention of human beings ever....

religions or the religious context has caused more death and destruction
then just about any other ism, since the rise of mankind..

millions have died from wars about religion or have been victim of religious
persecution, the Spanish Inquisition for example took the lives of thousands...
as did various crusades and attacks upon such beliefs as Albigensian/Cathar
factions...... it is hard to see the benefits of the church given it many crimes
against humanity.....

I hold that it would be best if organized religion would vanish,
and that people return to a more personal vision of the relationship
between themselves and a god of their own choosing...

Kropotkin

[Mr Reasonable]

the general population has access to more information than ever and people just aren't falling for the church scheme anymore

[Peter Kropotkin]

the general population has access to more information than ever and people just aren't falling for the church scheme anymore

K: equating the church with Amway or other Ponzi schemes.... not a bad analogy....

Kropotkin

[Mr Reasonable]

the product is a little different but the money scheme is the same

[Peter Kropotkin]

agreed...

Kropotkin

[Mr Reasonable]

wanna hear a joke?

some right wingers in the deep south who love the constitution got together and figured out how to change a law or something so that one of the mega churches could have it's own actual police force. like campus police division of a municipal police force but instead of for a public university, for a church.

you get it? they love the consitution but they advocate for what has to be the most robust form of combining church and state.

https://www.wbrc.com/2019/06/19/briarwo ... -officers/

[Peter Kropotkin]

wanna hear a joke?

some right wingers in the deep south who love the constitution got together and figured out how to change a law or something so that one of the mega churches could have it's own actual police force. like campus police division of a municipal police force but instead of for a public university, for a church.

you get it? they love the consitution but they advocate for what has to be the most robust form of combining church and state.

https://www.wbrc.com/2019/06/19/briarwo ... -officers/

K: actually most right winger/church advocates would love to turn America
into a theocracy, much like Iran.... that would thrill them no end.. and with pretty
much with the exact same rules...and given half the chance, they would

Kropotkin

[Mr Reasonable]

exactly. the joke is that they want to do this while waving around a constitution that they clearly have not read or do not actually hold as meaning anything

[felix dakat]

Humanity didn't invent religion anymore than it invented itself. Religion became manifest when homo sapiens emerged as a species.

The concept of religion as a belief and practice in contra-distinction to secularity is historically a Christian one. European "anti-religious" sentiment grew out of Protestantism which was influenced by Islamic iconoclasm. It would more accurately be termed anti-formalism.

Attending church services is categorially formal religion. The trend toward claiming to be spiritual rather than religious is anti-formal. Like agnosticism and atheism it's essentially a continuation of the Protestant principle.

In a broad sense the culture war which is dividing America is a religious conflict. The political left is not necessarily any less religious or spiritual, as they might prefer to call it, than the religious right.

In 1963, when Martin Luther King addressed hundreds of thousands of civil rights protestors assembled in Washington, he had aimed his speech at the country beyond the capital as well—at an America that was still an unapologetically Christian nation. By 2017, things were different. Among the four co-chairs of the Women’s March was a Muslim. Marching through Washington were Sikhs, Buddhists, Jews. Huge numbers had no faith at all. Even the Christians among the organisers flinched from attempting to echo the prophetic voice of a Martin Luther King. Nevertheless, their manifesto was no less based in theological presumptions than that of the civil rights movement had been. Implicit in #MeToo was the same call to sexual continence that had reverberated throughout throughout the Church’s history. Protestors who marched in the red cloaks of handmaids were summoning men to exercise control over their lusts just as the Puritans had done. Appetites that had been hailed by enthusiasts for sexual liberation as Dionysiac stood condemned once again as predatory and violent. The human body was not an object, not a commodity to be used by the rich and powerful as and when they pleased. Two thousand years of Christian sexual morality had resulted in men as well as women widely taking this for granted. Had it not, then #MeToo would have had no force.

Holland, Tom. Dominion (p. 531). Basic Books. Kindle Edition.

[Bob]

Humanity didn't invent religion anymore than it invented itself. Religion became manifest when homo sapiens emerged as a species.

The concept of religion as a belief and practice in contra-distinction to secularity is historically a Christian one. European "anti-religious" sentiment grew out of Protestantism which was influenced by Islamic iconoclasm. It would more accurately be termed anti-formalism.

Attending church services is categorially formal religion. The trend toward claiming to be spiritual rather than religious is anti-formal. Like agnosticism and atheism it's essentially a continuation of the Protestant principle.

In a broad sense the culture war which is dividing America is a religious conflict. The political left is not necessarily any less religious or spiritual, as they might prefer to call it, than the religious right.

In 1963, when Martin Luther King addressed hundreds of thousands of civil rights protestors assembled in Washington, he had aimed his speech at the country beyond the capital as well—at an America that was still an unapologetically Christian nation. By 2017, things were different. Among the four co-chairs of the Women’s March was a Muslim. Marching through Washington were Sikhs, Buddhists, Jews. Huge numbers had no faith at all. Even the Christians among the organisers flinched from attempting to echo the prophetic voice of a Martin Luther King. Nevertheless, their manifesto was no less based in theological presumptions than that of the civil rights movement had been. Implicit in #MeToo was the same call to sexual continence that had reverberated throughout throughout the Church’s history. Protestors who marched in the red cloaks of handmaids were summoning men to exercise control over their lusts just as the Puritans had done. Appetites that had been hailed by enthusiasts for sexual liberation as Dionysiac stood condemned once again as predatory and violent. The human body was not an object, not a commodity to be used by the rich and powerful as and when they pleased. Two thousand years of Christian sexual morality had resulted in men as well as women widely taking this for granted. Had it not, then #MeToo would have had no force.

Holland, Tom. Dominion (p. 531). Basic Books. Kindle Edition.

It is basically a human problem. There are people among supposedly non-religious groups who are just as evil as the evillest in religious societies. The religious have a set of moral ideals against which deviation is obvious straight away, whereas those without evident ideals are not so apparent.

The issue with religious practise, or formalism, is that the service is in many cases a contradiction to common experience. The enthusiasm of “charismatic” churches is seen as contrived and much of the sermon is moral teaching, which grates against the reports of abuse, and experience of cruelty.

Religious practise in the Christian sense is a partaking in the gospel story, a re-enactment of the myth, an identification with the persons portrayed, and reception of the forgiveness made available by the blood of Christ. This isn’t fully recognised and where it is, people shy away from the “scapegoating” aspect of it. People know it is wrong, completely and fully wrong, but that is what Grace is, and the better we understand how wrong it is, the more good it does for us.

[Ierrellus]

An Am. native friend of mine said that people are leaving traditional churches and are going to new wave religions because the conservative churches have lost their emotional appeal. Aldous Huxley disparages emotional appeal in the Perennial Philosophy. So what do the latest generation seek? Emotional fire or pure logic for their religious preference? My father agreed with the Am. Native in being a minister who claimed that the so-called "modern" churches have grown cold.

[Dan~]

I thought they stopped going to church due to covid.

[felix dakat]

To anyone considering Church attendance as a significant measure of religiosity, please note that I am not a member of a religious denomination. I have not attended church once a week or more since 1986. The last time I attended a service was about 5 years ago when I went to a funeral for a friend's wife. Weddings and funerals are about the extent of my participation in the formal Church.

Yet listening to YouTube videos of Jonathan Pageau the symbolist icon carver, I have recently developed a new appreciation for liturgy as a purveyor of communal meaning. I have yet to step into a so-called church building because of it though.

And of course there is the effect of covid-19 on the willingness of people including myself to gather communally at this time. At the moment I find it interesting to ponder that I have even entertained the idea.

[Bob]

An Am. native friend of mine said that people are leaving traditional churches and are going to new wave religions because the conservative churches have lost their emotional appeal. Aldous Huxley disparages emotional appeal in the Perennial Philosophy. So what do the latest generation seek? Emotional fire or pure logic for their religious preference? My father agreed with the Am. Native in being a minister who claimed that the so-called "modern" churches have grown cold.

I believe that this is correct, plus the fact that we have no feeling for ritual.

[Ierrellus]

T. S. Eliot converted to Catholicism because he found the rituals therein emotionally comforting. But we can be somewhat comforted by the waning of emotional appeals that resulted in witch hunts and inquisitions.
Nowadays politics claims that emotional appeal. Conservative religion is the bitch of current politics.

[Bob]

T. S. Eliot converted to Catholicism because he found the rituals therein emotionally comforting. But we can be somewhat comforted by the waning of emotional appeals that resulted in witch hunts and inquisitions.
Nowadays politics claims that emotional appeal. Conservative religion is the bitch of current politics.

Of course, here in Europe, church attendance has been far lower over a longer time and COVID hasn't been good for attendance. I think that the witch hunts and inquisitions have been superseded as a reason to avoid the church by the numerous abuse cases. It is particularly evil to misuse the trust placed in one, especially when you are talking about children. The numbers here in Europe have been depressing, and the long term suffering that was caused, partly because the victims felt they couldn't speak out against popular figures, has been appalling. Obviously, the church has done its cause a large disservice by trying to hush up the issue.

I find that the simplicity and hopefulness that I felt in church services was ruined and my faith rocked by burnout - especially because I was working for the church, and there was no help forthcoming, just more responsibility and stress. It made me question what I was doing so left the church completely and sought employment elsewhere. It was then that I completely revised my faith and am still seeking a path that gives me the same assurance as I had. It is probably not to be found.

[phyllo]

But we can be somewhat comforted by the waning of emotional appeals that resulted in witch hunts and inquisitions.

We have more witch hunts than ever in our wonderful internet age. It's not even a rare occurrence any more.

The "witches" don't get burned, hanged or drowned ... they lose their jobs, get ostracized or get endlessly hounded.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cancel_culture

[felix dakat]

But we can be somewhat comforted by the waning of emotional appeals that resulted in witch hunts and inquisitions.

We have more witch hunts than ever in our wonderful internet age. It's not even a rare occurrence any more.

The "witches" don't get burned, hanged or drowned ... they lose their jobs, get ostracized or get endlessly hounded.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cancel_culture

The allegation of "witch hunt" has become a favorite rhetorical accusation of scoundrels like Trump and Matt Gaetz. It reflects a dark legacy of the church, and appeals to the widespread mistrust of institutional investigations today.

According to the Bible the church is one, like God. Yet we can't see this. Our minds have been blinded by the nihilism of the world.

More generally, we are living in an era where the chaos of anarchy is destroying the order of institutions. Protestantism which I was born into was part of that movement.

William Butler Yeats captured the zeitgeist when he said "things fall apart, the center cannot hold." The center will hold though, as Isaiah saw when he announced "God with Us" a type of the principle of incarnation.

That of course is a vision of the spiritual reality which is the church. That is the church I wish to attend and to which I am attending in this discourse.

Christ envisioned the situation in his parable of the wheat and the tares. A tare I take to be a weed. In this context it would be an inauthentic sheave of wheat.

Does anyone think of themselves this way? As inauthentic? The inauthentic person is one who essentially and potentially authentic-- the Christ or Buddha waiting to be born, that is, realized.

When you commune with others, eating and drinking in a spirit of love, that is, in the presence of Christ, are you not attending church?

[Ierrellus]

Please read Emily Dickenson's "Some keep the Sabbath going to church. . ."
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/ ... he-sabbath going-to-church-236

[felix dakat]

Please read Emily Dickenson's "Some keep the Sabbath going to church. . ."
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/ ... he-sabbath going-to-church-236

An advanced expression of romantic Protestant anti-formal sentiment.

[Bob]

Please read Emily Dickenson's "Some keep the Sabbath going to church. . ."
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/ ... he-sabbath going-to-church-236

So instead of getting to Heaven, at last –
I’m going, all along.