Personality Models

The origins of the imperative, "know thyself", are lost in the sands of time, but the age-old examination of human consciousness continues here.

Personality Models

Postby Magnus Anderson » Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:59 pm

https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 0#p2775203

phoneutria wrote:i wouldnt have guessed mags as INTX either
just cuz you're not the type to be hanging out in the math threads
or relentlessly arguing the logic of some point
that is usually the give away for those types
like our boy andy here
totes intj

i used to get intp in my 20s
now i get intj
been hardened by life n all


Tests say that I'm sort of an INTJ but not totally an INTJ. I am actually sitting in between INTJ and INFJ while being a bit closer to INFJ.

Are you aware of Jung's cognitive functions? There are four of them -- sensing, intuiting, thinking and feeling -- and each one of them can either be extraverted or introverted.

Consider extraverted and introverted thinking.

Extraverted thinking (Te) is exemplified by the process of figuring out how to get from point A to point B given a model of the universe. People who are predominantly extraverted in their thinking are "model users" e.g. engineers. (They are chess players. The rules of chess constitute the model they work with unquestionably. It's a box within which they think, rarely daring to think outside of it.)

Introverted thinking (Ti) is exemplified by the process of coming up with a set of rules that describe how the universe works or how the universe should work. People who are predominantly introverted in their thinking are "model designers" e.g. theorists. (They are chess designers. They are the ones who invent boxes for other people to think within. They are often seen as impractical and unfocused as they have little to no interest in using boxes -- even their own.)

You might notice that when describing Jung's personality model I am using my own terms. This is because what I'm actually doing is comparing my own personality model against Jung's. Notice how I came up with my own model of personality? That alone should tell you that I am more of a theorist than I am an engineer. And that fits INFJ story much better than it does INTJ story (since INTJs use extraverted thinking.) But assuming that my dominant function is introverted thinking, that actually makes me an INTP. That wouldn't be surprising given that philosophy is the most introverted kind of study there is.
Magnus Anderson
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4638
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 7:26 pm

Re: Personality Models

Postby phoneutria » Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:44 pm

totes INTJ thing to do
to think you're actually an INFJ

i don't even think i am one
i'm too adorable
phoneutria
purveyor of enchantment, advocate of pulchritude AND venomously disarming
 
Posts: 3403
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:37 am

Re: Personality Models

Postby phoneutria » Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:15 pm

but yeah anyway
the above mentioned categories have nothing to do with introversion and extroversion
but your making your own definitions
just using words that already exist and already have other definitions
to add some confusion to the subject
cool

i mean who am i to say you're wrong
youre defining yourself
carry on young man
phoneutria
purveyor of enchantment, advocate of pulchritude AND venomously disarming
 
Posts: 3403
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:37 am

Re: Personality Models

Postby phoneutria » Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:30 pm

ok hell

on what ground do you make the above claims?
phoneutria
purveyor of enchantment, advocate of pulchritude AND venomously disarming
 
Posts: 3403
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:37 am

Re: Personality Models

Postby Magnus Anderson » Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:36 pm

phoneutria wrote:totes INTJ thing to do
to think you're actually an INFJ

i don't even think i am one
i'm too adorable


Why do you think that I think that I am actually an INFJ?

Does "Tests consistently report that I am an INFJ" immediately translate to "I think I am an INFJ"?

Having said that I'm predominantly an introverted thinker -- and that philosophers in general are predominantly introverted thinkers -- one would assume that others would assume that I think I am an INTP.

the above mentioned categories have nothing to do with introversion and extroversion


They don't. The thread title reads "Personality Models" and not "Introversion and Extraversion".

but your making your own definitions


What definitions?

i mean who am i to say you're wrong
youre defining yourself
carry on young man


Okay, old woman.

on what ground do you make the above claims?


What claims?

That I am an introverted thinker?
Magnus Anderson
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4638
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 7:26 pm

Re: Personality Models

Postby iambiguous » Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:00 pm

What doesn't surprise me is that the questions on the test are reduced down to 1] would you think, feel, say and do this or 2] would you think, feel, say and do that.

For me, however, it is often in regard to context. And, rather frequently, I'm tugged ambivalently in different directions depending on any number of factors.

But that's not the point, I suppose. What is [for some] is that they are are able to find out What They Are.

More sophisticated than a horoscope, perhaps, but how much so?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
User avatar
iambiguous
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 37705
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

Re: Personality Models

Postby Magnus Anderson » Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:13 pm

Biguous wrote:More sophisticated than a horoscope, perhaps, but how much so?


Is it more sophisticated than racism?

Magnus Anderson
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4638
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 7:26 pm

Re: Personality Models

Postby iambiguous » Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:10 am

Magnus Anderson wrote:
Biguous wrote:More sophisticated than a horoscope, perhaps, but how much so?


Is it more sophisticated than racism?



Is there a "personality model" that comes closest to embodying what all rational and virtuous men and women are obligated to think, feel, say and do in regard to race? Is there a scientific, philosophical, theological, "natural" assessment able to accomplish the same? How about in regard to gender or sexual orientation?

What amounts to the most "sophisticated" analysis of such demographic categories?

You all know my own description of "I" here. There is what someone believes is true here and there is what, to the best of their current knowledge, they are able to demonstrate is true for all reasonable and ethical human beings.

Do personality models bring certain "types" closer to this than others?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
User avatar
iambiguous
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 37705
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

Re: Personality Models

Postby phoneutria » Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:19 am

Magnus Anderson wrote:Why do you think that I think that I am actually an INFJ?
Does "Tests consistently report that I am an INFJ" immediately translate to "I think I am an INFJ"?


Did you say that?

Having said that I'm predominantly an introverted thinker -- and that philosophers in general are predominantly introverted thinkers -- one would assume that others would assume that I think I am an INTP.


maybe
but in my observations intps tend to be less beligerent
or at least don't take so much pleasure in it

They don't. The thread title reads "Personality Models" and not "Introversion and Extraversion".


yeah but you're putting words together and saying they mean this and that
it gives me the same impression i get from reading ancient alchemy text
like some dude says sulfur comes from the sun and that's a given and i just have to roll with it
but i'm saying maybe not... how do you know you're right
what are these things you are measuring, even?

What definitions?

i mean terms, that is the word you used
i also used your instead of you're
which i never do
it's the day drinking
phoneutria
purveyor of enchantment, advocate of pulchritude AND venomously disarming
 
Posts: 3403
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:37 am

Re: Personality Models

Postby Magnus Anderson » Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:24 am

@iambiguous:

I am not exactly sure what you're asking.

The purpose of personality models isn't to tell you what's right and what's wrong but to predict human behavior.

Any given model of personality is useful to the extent that it allows us to predict other people's behavior based on their personality type.
Magnus Anderson
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4638
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 7:26 pm

Re: Personality Models

Postby iambiguous » Wed Sep 09, 2020 2:34 am

Magnus Anderson wrote:@iambiguous:

I am not exactly sure what you're asking.

The purpose of personality models isn't to tell you what's right and what's wrong but to predict human behavior.

Any given model of personality is useful to the extent that it allows us to predict other people's behavior based on their personality type.


First, of course, Karpel Tunnel will tune in here and assure you that I am in troll mode hijacking the thread.

And, who knows, given the complexity of human psychology, maybe I am.

But my first post here had nothing to do with right and wrong, only with either and or. Take this here personality test where every question is reduced down to thinking, feeling, saying and doing this rather than that, and we can tell you what slot you fit into. What KT might call "binary thinking".

The whole point being more to slot you [and wanting to be slotted] rather than in focusing in on how, in very different contexts, you might act in very different ways...or feel tugged and pulled in different [sometimes conflicting] directions. Then the part where genes stop and memes begin.

That's just my thing when it comes to "I".

Then came the video about racism. That got me to thinking that being or not being racist could be ascribed to innate personality types. 16 different possibilities to be more or less likely racist. Or more or less likely to know what Marxism really is.

And once that is triggered in me... 8)
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
User avatar
iambiguous
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 37705
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

Re: Personality Models

Postby phoneutria » Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:10 am

fuck off biggie you relentless troll
phoneutria
purveyor of enchantment, advocate of pulchritude AND venomously disarming
 
Posts: 3403
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:37 am

Re: Personality Models

Postby iambiguous » Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:02 am

phoneutria wrote:fuck off biggie you relentless troll


Of course she's just paraphrasing Karpel Tunnel.

Or Satyr. 8)

Would someone do me a favor and ask what most threatens her about me? :-k
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
User avatar
iambiguous
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 37705
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

Re: Personality Models

Postby Magnus Anderson » Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:56 am

phoneutria wrote:Did you say that?


You mean, did I say that tests consistently report that I am an INFJ?

Yes, I did. Here.

maybe
but in my observations intps tend to be less beligerent
or at least don't take so much pleasure in it


Suppose you're working on improving the foundational component of some system. That's what "introverted thinking" is about, right? Note that when I say "foundational component of a system" I refer to the component that has no dependencies (i.e. that does not depend on any other component within the system to function properly) and that all other components depend on (i.e. without which no other component within the system can function.) What happens when one day you discover a much better version of the component? Don't you think that such types would be more opinionated and more arrogant than those who focus on peripheral components? I would think so. They would be the ones telling everyone else they are doing things the wrong way. Those who work on peripheral components may think they are better than that guy who works on the central component but they would certainly have less reason to think that they are better than every other guy working on a peripheral component.

That supports the popular stance that INTPs are the non-conforming somewhat anti-social types who question everything. (As opposed to INTJs who are much bigger conformists.)

yeah but you're putting words together and saying they mean this and that
it gives me the same impression i get from reading ancient alchemy text
like some dude says sulfur comes from the sun and that's a given and i just have to roll with it
but i'm saying maybe not... how do you know you're right
what are these things you are measuring, even?


Can you be more specific? What words? Let's settle that down.

i mean terms, that is the word you used


Are you referring to my statement that I approach Jung's personality model with my own personality model?

i also used your instead of you're
which i never do
it's the day drinking


Yes, I noticed that.
Magnus Anderson
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4638
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 7:26 pm

Re: Personality Models

Postby MagsJ » Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:32 pm

iambiguous wrote:
phoneutria wrote:fuck off biggie you relentless troll
Of course she's just paraphrasing Karpel Tunnel.

Or Satyr. 8)

Would someone do me a favor and ask what most threatens her about me? :-k

I would ask, but I doubt I’d get an answer.. I’m not that much into one-way conversations, on two-way streets.

Iam.. my favourite troll of them all. :D I’m starting to be amused, when you throw-down your paternoster-esque (con)trap(tion).. reminiscent of the Creeper’s spear, in Jeepers Creepers, in that it always hits home/true.

I met a guy called Cronus, the other day.. he said he didn’t know his name meant time.. he was Greek, but spoke to me in Italian, and conducted (the reason for) the exchange, in English.


On race.. approaching a person based on race.. as opposed to their intrinsic nature, can lead to traumatisation of that person. It’s all in ‘the approach’ after-all.. isn’t it.

According to research for IQ, intuitive types (specifically INxx) have the highest IQ on average:
~ INTP.
~ INTJ.
~ INFP and INFJ.
I guess this means that extraverts aren’t really in the high IQ club, as much as introverts are.

:-k INTPs often have a wider range of knowledge than an INTJ, who has a deeper understanding but in limited fields. so how does that work out, when one’s P and J are so close? No wonder I’m constantly confused, about what to do with myself.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Wait, What! - MagsJ

You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
User avatar
MagsJ
The Londonist: a chic geek
 
Posts: 20513
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:59 pm
Location: Suryaloka/LDN Town

Re: Personality Models

Postby Magnus Anderson » Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:54 pm

Biguous wrote:But my first post here had nothing to do with right and wrong, only with either and or. Take this here personality test where every question is reduced down to thinking, feeling, saying and doing this rather than that, and we can tell you what slot you fit into. What KT might call "binary thinking".

The whole point being more to slot you [and wanting to be slotted] rather than in focusing in on how, in very different contexts, you might act in very different ways...or feel tugged and pulled in different [sometimes conflicting] directions. Then the part where genes stop and memes begin.

That's just my thing when it comes to "I".

Then came the video about racism. That got me to thinking that being or not being racist could be ascribed to innate personality types. 16 different possibilities to be more or less likely racist. Or more or less likely to know what Marxism really is.


I see.

I too feel that these categories are too general. They probably work, in the sense that they can accurately predict human behavior, but the number of things they can predict seems to be rather low. They don't say much -- that's the problem.

There appear to be better personality models, though, such as this one which has whopping 512 types.
Magnus Anderson
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4638
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 7:26 pm

Re: Personality Models

Postby phoneutria » Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:09 pm

if you get to the point where you're dividing people into 512 categories
you may as well consider each person an unique individual
that model is useless
phoneutria
purveyor of enchantment, advocate of pulchritude AND venomously disarming
 
Posts: 3403
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:37 am

Re: Personality Models

Postby phoneutria » Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:11 pm

i am as threatened by biggie as I am by a house fly
there's no harm nor use
it's just distracting noise
phoneutria
purveyor of enchantment, advocate of pulchritude AND venomously disarming
 
Posts: 3403
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:37 am

Re: Personality Models

Postby Magnus Anderson » Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:33 pm

phoneutria wrote:if you get to the point where you're dividing people into 512 categories
you may as well consider each person an unique individual
that model is useless


There are 8 billion people on the planet. That's a lot more than 512 categories.

The number looks fine to me, the question is whether the categories themselves are useful.
Magnus Anderson
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4638
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 7:26 pm

Re: Personality Models

Postby surreptitious75 » Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:41 pm

I dont think absolute classifications can be applied to human beings so these different models are rather arbitrary
I am an introvert and am probably closer to being an INTP / INFP but they dont describe me entirely just partially

I like being alone all of the time not merely most of the time which makes me very unusual indeed but thats just me and so its perfectly natural
I like anything that stimulates me mentally but prefer to access human beings indirectly rather than directly which again makes me very unusual

I dont like talking not even if absolutely necessary and much prefer reading which requires absolutely zero interaction from me toward other human beings
Even in a room full of introverts I would much rather say nothing at all but just listen though sometimes silence can unfortunately be mistaken for rudeness

I am also rather boring and so small wonder that I am alone all the time but that doesnt really bother me as that is how I want to be
I know that I am not that important so I simply accept it and let it be especially as in all other respects I have a very easy life indeed
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
surreptitious75
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1490
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2017 5:48 pm

Re: Personality Models

Postby phoneutria » Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:57 pm

Magnus Anderson wrote:
maybe
but in my observations intps tend to be less beligerent
or at least don't take so much pleasure in it


Suppose you're working on improving the foundational component of some system. That's what "introverted thinking" is about, right? Note that when I say "foundational component of a system" I refer to the component that has no dependencies (i.e. that does not depend on any other component within the system to function properly) and that all other components depend on (i.e. without which no other component within the system can function.) What happens when one day you discover a much better version of the component? Don't you think that such types would be more opinionated and more arrogant than those who focus on peripheral components? I would think so. They would be the ones telling everyone else they are doing things the wrong way. Those who work on peripheral components may think they are better than that guy who works on the central component but they would certainly have less reason to think that they are better than every other guy working on a peripheral component.

That supports the popular stance that INTPs are the non-conforming somewhat anti-social types who question everything. (As opposed to INTJs who are much bigger conformists.)


it's not as simple as to say that that's due to a person's type of thinking
one can at the same time have very strong opinions and no desire to share it
or have strong opinions and be not at all arrogant
or see people around them doing everything wrong and prefer to say nothing
the desire to communicate one's mental convictions is not dependent on their level of conviction
let alone the way in which they communicate it if they choose to do so
or on the work they did to achieve them
there are more things at play

a person's sense of "orderliness" is a critical factor in that
because an orderly person would not accept wrong things happening around them
they'd would seek to correct them


Can you be more specific? What words? Let's settle that down.

"introvert thinker"
"extrovert thinker"

Are you referring to my statement that I approach Jung's personality model with my own personality model?


yes
phoneutria
purveyor of enchantment, advocate of pulchritude AND venomously disarming
 
Posts: 3403
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:37 am

Re: Personality Models

Postby iambiguous » Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:49 pm

Magnus Anderson wrote:
Biguous wrote:But my first post here had nothing to do with right and wrong, only with either and or. Take this here personality test where every question is reduced down to thinking, feeling, saying and doing this rather than that, and we can tell you what slot you fit into. What KT might call "binary thinking".

The whole point being more to slot you [and wanting to be slotted] rather than in focusing in on how, in very different contexts, you might act in very different ways...or feel tugged and pulled in different [sometimes conflicting] directions. Then the part where genes stop and memes begin.

That's just my thing when it comes to "I".

Then came the video about racism. That got me to thinking that being or not being racist could be ascribed to innate personality types. 16 different possibilities to be more or less likely racist. Or more or less likely to know what Marxism really is.


I see.

I too feel that these categories are too general. They probably work, in the sense that they can accurately predict human behavior, but the number of things they can predict seems to be rather low. They don't say much -- that's the problem.

There appear to be better personality models, though, such as this one which has whopping 512 types.


Also, with categories of this sort the conclusions are predicated on attempts by those in the "soft sciences" to at least explore human personalities with some measure of rigor. Experiences can be recounted. Experiments can be conducted. Predictions can be made. Results either can or cannot be replicated.

Whereas with things like astrology, where is the equivalent?

My own reservations revolve around the manner in which some of us are less interested in whatever the categories might be and more with the fact that the categories are said to exist in the first place. And that they can then slot themselves in one rather than another.

And then the extent to which this sort of thinking is reconfigured into the "one of us" vs. "one of them" mentality employed by the moral and political objectivists contending in the world of conflicting goods. That includes things like racism and pinning down what Marxism really is.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
User avatar
iambiguous
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 37705
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

Re: Personality Models

Postby iambiguous » Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:03 pm

phoneutria wrote:i am as threatened by biggie as I am by a house fly
there's no harm nor use
it's just distracting noise


Not on this thread of course but I am more than willing to take her own accusations about me to a new thread. I offer her the same challenge that I do others here:

1] that we explore her accusations above in the philosophy forum

2] that we dispense with huffing and puffing and personal attacks

3] that we focus instead on discussing -- civilly and intelligently -- our respective moral philosophies given a context that most of us here are likely to be familiar with


Someone please pass this along to her. She'll either accept the challenge or she won't.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
User avatar
iambiguous
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 37705
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

Re: Personality Models

Postby Magnus Anderson » Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:43 pm

phoneutria wrote:"introvert thinker"
"extrovert thinker"


What's the problem you have with these terms?

I hope you understand these are Jung's terms.
Magnus Anderson
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4638
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 7:26 pm

Re: Personality Models

Postby phoneutria » Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:02 pm

You might notice that when describing Jung's personality model I am using my own terms

.
phoneutria
purveyor of enchantment, advocate of pulchritude AND venomously disarming
 
Posts: 3403
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:37 am

Next

Return to Psychology and Mind



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users