Is nazism a religion?

Half-formed posts, inchoate philosophies, and the germs of deep thought.

Re: Is nazism a religion?

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:10 am

WendyDarling wrote:What is sad is that information can no longer be trusted it seems to me. How can there be so many different "facts" regarding the same things such as tax rates?

I thought that all healthcare in Sweden was covered by taxes, but there are still charges to see physicians, for prescriptions, and dental costs. To me universal healthcare covers citizens universally and all charges universally.

The 60% tax rate in Sweden is paid by the lower income folks and that's regressive even if online materials is trying to say progressive or flat neither of which are probably true.


The high taxes are paid by everyone and the percentage goes up, the higher the income. Of course there are always more ways for the wealthy to get around taxes, though less ways than in the US.

Yes, you pay to see physicians, up to 150 bucks a year, then it is free. In fact, any medical costs going to a medical professional, like including physiotherapists, counts towards that 150. Once you have reached that amount, it's free for a year. Think of it as a deductible. You're insured, but after this minimal sum. Yes, medications cost, though if they are necessary and you really couldn't pay there are possible solutions. Of course Thatcher and Reagan and the neocons are reaching Scandanavia. So the system is being piece by piece, slowly over time, reduced.

Children get free health care and dental till they are 18.

The system worked very well in many ways until the 2000s as all the finance sector and banking skimming, worldwide, meant that everyone had less money and got compensated less for actual work.

Imagine not having to be afraid of catastrophic illness reducing your family to financial rubble It gave workers real power in relation to employers. You really didn't have to stay with asshole employers. Yet, the Swedes had better numbers as far as percentage who worked compared to countries without universal health care. They had a reputation as hard workers in fact, still do.
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Re: Is nazism a religion?

Postby Gloominary » Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:38 am

Here's how taxation works in Sweden, it's progressive.

Sweden has a progressive income tax, the general rates for 2018 are as follows (based on yearly incomes):
0% from 0 kronor to 20,008 kronor
Circa 32% (ca. 11% county and 20% municipality tax which is the Swedish average): from 20,008 kronor to 468,700 kronor
32% + 20%: from 468,700 kronor to 675,700 kronor
32% + 25%: above 675,700 kronor[4]
The first 18,000 kronor of the yearly income are not taxed. Taxable income is reduced by general deductions which means that the marginal tax in practice varies between 7% on incomes just above 18,800 kronor to 60.1% on incomes above 675,700 kronor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Sweden
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Re: Is nazism a religion?

Postby Gloominary » Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:41 am

I'm not saying it's perfect, I think the working and middle classes should be taxed less, if at all, and the upperclass progressively more.
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Re: Is nazism a religion?

Postby Gloominary » Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:18 am

Sweden and Denmark's GDP per capita is a little less than the US, but Iceland and Norway's is a little more.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

But GDP per capita isn't a perfect measure of median household income because of uneven distribution.
Scandinavia has lower income inequality than the US, and its European neighbors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient#/media/File:2017,_Coeficiente_de_Gini,_Mapa_del_mundo.svg

It, along with the Romance countries (Spain, France, Italy), also has a higher life expectancy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

There's so many factors to look at, but I think we can at least conclude the Nordic model is high functioning, it has many benefits worth considering.
Last edited by Gloominary on Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is nazism a religion?

Postby Gloominary » Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:05 am

This list is worth a look:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income

And this one:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_capita_income

Both Scandinavia and the US perform exceptionally well in these.
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Re: Is nazism a religion?

Postby Gloominary » Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:24 am

Both Scandinavia and the US appear to have the highest median incomes in the world, and Canada isn't far behind them, but the US still has much higher income inequality and a lower life expectancy, for whites included (surprisingly apparently both Asian, and Latino Americans have a much higher life expectancy than white Americans, was not expecting that).

The vast majority of studies focus on the black-white contrast, but a rapidly growing literature describes variations in health status among America's increasingly diverse racial populations. Today, Asian Americans live the longest (87.1 years), followed by Latinos (83.3 years), whites (78.9 years), Native Americans (76.9 years), and African Americans (75.4 years).[10] Where people live, combined with race and income, play a huge role in whether they may die young.[11] A 2001 study found large racial differences exist in healthy life expectancy at lower levels of education.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_health_in_the_United_States

I have no idea why Latino Americans are living longer than white Americans, since Latino Americans are poorer than white Americans, perhaps they're more health conscious.
All that being said, Scandinavian income will be taxed, some of that will go into relatively universal healthcare and other social services, which may partly explain why Americans have a shorter life expectancy, lower class Americans don't have as much access to healthcare.
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Re: Is nazism a religion?

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:17 am

Gloominary wrote:I have no idea why Latino Americans are living longer than white Americans, since Latino Americans are poorer than white Americans, perhaps they're more health conscious.
A stab in the dark on this: Japanese people lived longer than Americans. Smoking japanese didn't die much younger or at all younger. This confused people. Then they tracked immigrants to the US from Japan. If the immigrants took on the more individualistic lifestyle of americans - smaller families, less family contact, primarily all the tight family, and extended family stuff,
they died like americans. If they smoked, they died much younger like other americans.

But those that stayed very traditional, they maintained longevity.

Latinos tend to have tighter and more extended family connections right through life and of course this likely leads to elderly being in home, rather than sent off to die. And their lives probably are richer and more filled with love. That could make a big difference.

I am still surprised, however. But I thought I'd toss a guess out.
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Re: Is nazism a religion?

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:41 pm

Gloominary wrote:Both Scandinavia and the US appear to have the highest median incomes in the world, and Canada isn't far behind them, but the US still has much higher income inequality and a lower life expectancy, for whites included (surprisingly apparently both Asian, and Latino Americans have a much higher life expectancy than white Americans, was not expecting that).
e.
There's a lot of bs written about Sweden by the Right and the Left probably thinks it is better than it is. The supposed war zone of Malmö is a city I would walk anywhere in, which is not the case for cities that size in the US. Most of the big violence is between criminals. The areas that have problems that get called no go zones do have warehoused people aspects. Immigrants are shunted by real estate agents into certain areas. Employers will choose people with Swedish names over people with stronger qualifications with foreign names. And this includes people with their degrees in Sweden. If they change their names, they get to interviews and often jobs. There is a push towards meaningful lives and a lot of the immigrants who want to work, and certainly the majority of the men want to have a hard time getting it. Of course the immigrants contribute in their own ways, some cultural, some individual and many coming from war zones are damaged. But this all gets painted by the Right as a pure, they don't want to work, they want the welfare state's teat. Overly simple. The Left tends to not want to see that different cultures lead to problems, sometimes severe ones.

How the incoming immigrants and refugees have affected rape is not made public, which is simply wrong. Let's chips fall where they may, and make sure to count in factors like income, unemployment and so on. But deal with it. You have one of the most enormous culture differences around female behavior possible. In Sweden women are able to be extremely free with their bodies and sexuality and have more positions of power than most places in the world. Cues that say 'I want to have sex with you' or 'I am a prostitute' in many cultures mean nothing at all that in Sweden. This does not justify rape, at all. But not enough is done to deal with the incredible differences. But it's nice to see the Right so concerned about rape. Of course, it's the stranger rape, especially between races that really gets them political on the issue.

There are many things wrong in Sweden and I think the Right is sometimes correct in what they see. And Sweden is not a world power, which allows it to do things that would not work in larger and more powerful countries. I just see so much bs in the news.
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Re: Is nazism a religion?

Postby WendyDarling » Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:55 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
WendyDarling wrote:What is sad is that information can no longer be trusted it seems to me. How can there be so many different "facts" regarding the same things such as tax rates?

I thought that all healthcare in Sweden was covered by taxes, but there are still charges to see physicians, for prescriptions, and dental costs. To me universal healthcare covers citizens universally and all charges universally.

The 60% tax rate in Sweden is paid by the lower income folks and that's regressive even if online materials is trying to say progressive or flat neither of which are probably true.


The high taxes are paid by everyone and the percentage goes up, the higher the income. Of course there are always more ways for the wealthy to get around taxes, though less ways than in the US.

Yes, you pay to see physicians, up to 150 bucks a year, then it is free. In fact, any medical costs going to a medical professional, like including physiotherapists, counts towards that 150. Once you have reached that amount, it's free for a year. Think of it as a deductible. You're insured, but after this minimal sum. Yes, medications cost, though if they are necessary and you really couldn't pay there are possible solutions. Of course Thatcher and Reagan and the neocons are reaching Scandanavia. So the system is being piece by piece, slowly over time, reduced.

Children get free health care and dental till they are 18.

The system worked very well in many ways until the 2000s as all the finance sector and banking skimming, worldwide, meant that everyone had less money and got compensated less for actual work.

Imagine not having to be afraid of catastrophic illness reducing your family to financial rubble It gave workers real power in relation to employers. You really didn't have to stay with asshole employers. Yet, the Swedes had better numbers as far as percentage who worked compared to countries without universal health care. They had a reputation as hard workers in fact, still do.

I have three sources so far for my information and it differs from what you are purporting as well as the sources differing from one another. Points of contention 1. The poor pay the higher tax rate of 60% where the wealthier pay the lower tax rate of 44%. I'm not trusting Wiki at this point Gloom, sorry. Do you have a better sources? 2. What I read about physician charges said nothing about a spend down. It stated that charges between 180-300 SEK per visit to a physician. 3. Children get free health and dental care until they are 21.

These discrepancies are what I'm talking about regarding online materials. How in the Hell do you research truth when there are numerous truths about the same thing rather than one? KT, where'd you get your info? Link?
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Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Is nazism a religion?

Postby WendyDarling » Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:07 pm

KT wrote
How the incoming immigrants and refugees have affected rape is not made public, which is simply wrong. Let's chips fall where they may, and make sure to count in factors like income, unemployment and so on. But deal with it. You have one of the most enormous culture differences around female behavior possible. In Sweden women are able to be extremely free with their bodies and sexuality and have more positions of power than most places in the world. Cues that say 'I want to have sex with you' or 'I am a prostitute' in many cultures mean nothing at all that in Sweden. This does not justify rape, at all. But not enough is done to deal with the incredible differences. But it's nice to see the Right so concerned about rape. Of course, it's the stranger rape, especially between races that really gets them political on the issue.


I don't understand your paragraph about the rape epidemic there. The left covers it up and Sweden's own women are coming out on YouTube with the truth on the matter. A sad truth that deserves more attention than letting the chips fall where they may and monitoring factors like income and employment. That's ludicrously inadequate.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Is nazism a religion?

Postby Gloominary » Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:25 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Gloominary wrote:I have no idea why Latino Americans are living longer than white Americans, since Latino Americans are poorer than white Americans, perhaps they're more health conscious.
A stab in the dark on this: Japanese people lived longer than Americans. Smoking japanese didn't die much younger or at all younger. This confused people. Then they tracked immigrants to the US from Japan. If the immigrants took on the more individualistic lifestyle of americans - smaller families, less family contact, primarily all the tight family, and extended family stuff,
they died like americans. If they smoked, they died much younger like other americans.

But those that stayed very traditional, they maintained longevity.

Latinos tend to have tighter and more extended family connections right through life and of course this likely leads to elderly being in home, rather than sent off to die. And their lives probably are richer and more filled with love. That could make a big difference.

I am still surprised, however. But I thought I'd toss a guess out.

I was thinking something along the same lines.
Naw I'm sure you're right, that must be it, Latino Americans have all the benefits of the American economy + all the benefits of their Catholic, Latin American culture; strong families, home-cooking.
They may be a little poorer on average, but it's not enough to make much of a difference.
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Re: Is nazism a religion?

Postby Gloominary » Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:43 am

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Gloominary wrote:Both Scandinavia and the US appear to have the highest median incomes in the world, and Canada isn't far behind them, but the US still has much higher income inequality and a lower life expectancy, for whites included (surprisingly apparently both Asian, and Latino Americans have a much higher life expectancy than white Americans, was not expecting that).
e.
There's a lot of bs written about Sweden by the Right and the Left probably thinks it is better than it is. The supposed war zone of Malmö is a city I would walk anywhere in, which is not the case for cities that size in the US. Most of the big violence is between criminals. The areas that have problems that get called no go zones do have warehoused people aspects. Immigrants are shunted by real estate agents into certain areas. Employers will choose people with Swedish names over people with stronger qualifications with foreign names. And this includes people with their degrees in Sweden. If they change their names, they get to interviews and often jobs. There is a push towards meaningful lives and a lot of the immigrants who want to work, and certainly the majority of the men want to have a hard time getting it. Of course the immigrants contribute in their own ways, some cultural, some individual and many coming from war zones are damaged. But this all gets painted by the Right as a pure, they don't want to work, they want the welfare state's teat. Overly simple. The Left tends to not want to see that different cultures lead to problems, sometimes severe ones.

How the incoming immigrants and refugees have affected rape is not made public, which is simply wrong. Let's chips fall where they may, and make sure to count in factors like income, unemployment and so on. But deal with it. You have one of the most enormous culture differences around female behavior possible. In Sweden women are able to be extremely free with their bodies and sexuality and have more positions of power than most places in the world. Cues that say 'I want to have sex with you' or 'I am a prostitute' in many cultures mean nothing at all that in Sweden. This does not justify rape, at all. But not enough is done to deal with the incredible differences. But it's nice to see the Right so concerned about rape. Of course, it's the stranger rape, especially between races that really gets them political on the issue.

There are many things wrong in Sweden and I think the Right is sometimes correct in what they see. And Sweden is not a world power, which allows it to do things that would not work in larger and more powerful countries. I just see so much bs in the news.

Yea, some places are better to live than others, but every place has its issues, unfortunately increasingly the left and right are talking passed each other, they each can't see any value in what the other has to say.
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Re: Is nazism a religion?

Postby Gloominary » Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:53 am

WendyDarling wrote:KT wrote
How the incoming immigrants and refugees have affected rape is not made public, which is simply wrong. Let's chips fall where they may, and make sure to count in factors like income, unemployment and so on. But deal with it. You have one of the most enormous culture differences around female behavior possible. In Sweden women are able to be extremely free with their bodies and sexuality and have more positions of power than most places in the world. Cues that say 'I want to have sex with you' or 'I am a prostitute' in many cultures mean nothing at all that in Sweden. This does not justify rape, at all. But not enough is done to deal with the incredible differences. But it's nice to see the Right so concerned about rape. Of course, it's the stranger rape, especially between races that really gets them political on the issue.


I don't understand your paragraph about the rape epidemic there. The left covers it up and Sweden's own women are coming out on YouTube with the truth on the matter. A sad truth that deserves more attention than letting the chips fall where they may and monitoring factors like income and employment. That's ludicrously inadequate.

Yea, we got to rely on our own interpretations of our own observations, anecdotes, alternative academia and media as well, because as you know, mainstream academia and media are biased and agenda laden.
If we never criticize or question the mainstream, we reward all that's corrupt in it, and it'll just get worse and worse.
Question everything.
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Re: Is nazism a religion?

Postby Gloominary » Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:52 am

WendyDarling wrote:I'm not trusting Wiki at this point Gloom, sorry. Do you have a better sources?

No need to be sorry, and not at the moment, I checked out some of that wiki articles sources and, well, they didn't check out, or I wasn't able to verify them because they were in Swedish.
I'll let you know if I can find anything else.
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Re: Is nazism a religion?

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Sat Jan 25, 2020 7:42 am

Gloominary wrote:There are some people who follow the ethical teachings of Jesus, Buddha or Mohammad and so on, but are either atheists, agnostics, deists, or believe in the miracle of divine inspiration, but not in other sorts of miracles (walking on water, turning water into wine, etcetera).

That's the Hypocrisy though and it goes both ways. Following the Ethos of a world religion or leader, is essentially 'Religion'. Again, superstition and supernatural details, are not necessary. You can claim "Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior" without believing in Divine Intervention, or specifically, defining the metaphorical interpretation of Divine Intervention, or what it means to be the son, or any relative, of any "god". Thus, what is God? What is a god? What is any god? It already begs-the-question, which most people avoid, because they lack intelligence, knowledge, wisdom, etc. They rather defer to (moral, religious) authorities.

Superstition is for women and children, to translate higher Ethos to them, "moral lessons", etc.


Gloominary wrote:What about classical liberalism, libertarianism, do you see it as a religion, and slave-dialectic?
Myself, I don't see slave-dialectic as necessarily a bad thing.
I think we need to find the right balance between the people and the elite, rather than extremes.

Classical liberalism = universal negative rights.
Modern liberalism = universal positive rights.

Both of them are religious, in a sense.

You said it yourself. Rights, from where, from whom, by what authority?


Gloominary wrote:A lot of classical liberals believe their rights come from God, or are Euclidean.
Modern liberals believe in a sort of original rich white male sin that's inherited, passed down from generation to generation.
Rich white men can partly atone for this sin by showing kindness and generosity to poor black and brown women, but they can never fully atone for the crimes of their ancestors and contemporary rich white male supremacists, until all inequality between groups and individuals is eliminated.

That's the Modern-Post-Modern 'race' conundrum, inserted into everything, especially religion. Isn't "God" a rich-white-male WASP?


Gloominary wrote:
Religion can be defined between religious beliefs, and religious actions.

Right, well, modern liberals can be very religious in their ethos and behavior.
A minority of them are spiritual too.
Some of those new agers, like Marianne Williamson.
They talk a lot about Gaia, mother earth.
They talk a lot about positive and negative energy.
They say we need to heal the planet by getting off fossil fuels, treating the poor, women and indigenous peoples better, etcetera.

Wiccans and other New Age Pagans are usually quite embarrassing, by what they say. However so are Modern-Post-Modern Christians and other default religious peoples. There is "Maia" on this forum; she claims to be a wiccan and witch. She is just one example of many. Usually children and teenagers, want to "resurrect the dead", so to speak, concerning the superstitious and supernatural. People want more to believe in than real-life. Thus they seek-out ghosts, demons, angels, mystical creatures, foreign and fantasy lands, etc. Real-life is boring. Real-life is monotonous. No demons. No beasts. No after-life. Nothing. If there were a God then he is long-dead. Thus I characterize Pop Religions as dead-worshipers, death-worshipers.

The average "religious person", Christian for example, devotes him or herself to dead people from centuries and millenniums ago. It's like owing fealty to a long dead Monarch, or to Julius Caesar. Get over it. They want to live in the past, using rose-tinted goggles.

The Old religions have still not updated to the New Era, the New Age, the New World Order. Secularism is only the first step toward what comes around the corner. Technology, AI, diseases, many aspects and dangers of common life are growing so fast and powerful, much of humanity will wake up, within this Century, and not even recognize the world around them. They will be passed-by, as new powers rise and overtake 'Humanity'.

There is no New World Religion or Order, yet, but the seeds are already sewn, as people seek religion and Nietzsche's Rebirth and transvaluation. When you can't believe in the Old Mythos, which is pretty much impossible at this point, then a new Mythos must take its place.


For example, look at how popular, yet controversial the Star Wars franchise has become. This is an example of that craving for Mythos. Or Star Trek, or Marvel Superhero movies, Avengers, etc.
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Re: Is nazism a religion?

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sat Jan 25, 2020 8:14 am

WendyDarling wrote:KT wrote
How the incoming immigrants and refugees have affected rape is not made public, which is simply wrong. Let's chips fall where they may, and make sure to count in factors like income, unemployment and so on. But deal with it. You have one of the most enormous culture differences around female behavior possible. In Sweden women are able to be extremely free with their bodies and sexuality and have more positions of power than most places in the world. Cues that say 'I want to have sex with you' or 'I am a prostitute' in many cultures mean nothing at all that in Sweden. This does not justify rape, at all. But not enough is done to deal with the incredible differences. But it's nice to see the Right so concerned about rape. Of course, it's the stranger rape, especially between races that really gets them political on the issue.


I don't understand your paragraph about the rape epidemic there. The left covers it up and Sweden's own women are coming out on YouTube with the truth on the matter. A sad truth that deserves more attention than letting the chips fall where they may and monitoring factors like income and employment. That's ludicrously inadequate.
'Sweden's own women are coming out on youtube.....'
Some Swedish women have said things on youtube. Those women say things that fit what you want to believe about people of other races and from other countries. so for you this is final evidence. Anectdotal evidence. I get so fucking tired of people who simply state as true what they hear from sources they don't ever think the least bit about in epistemological terms because it fits their rage and viewpoint. There are those who do that on the left and there are those who do it on the right, and you deserve each other. Unfortunately the rest of us have to live with what you think is proof and live with your hysterics and certainty.

My points were that the government, which includes both Left and Right, iow counterparts to dems and reps both don't want that information out there. For whatever reasons, no doubt pc reasons involved. But we don't know what those statistics are. I would guess that cultural factors do play out in rape. I do think that regardless of what the statistics say we should find out the statistics. I think the left's taboos on this subject and their hallucination that culture has no bearing on behavior is a problem.

I also am so glad that the Right is concerned about rape, even if it tends to only be stranger rape. They do have a tendency to only consider rape when someone pulls someone who is not dressed sexy into the bushes and forces them to have sex. Many other kinds of rape they consider no one's business and fought the idea that children might get sexually abused in any large numbers within their families. Or that if you were dressed sexy you still had the right to not be forced to have sex and so on. That was my shot at the right.

The Left cannot face the fact that how people are brought up to look at women could possibly cause problems, including what holy texts say about women. And in this way they have betrayed, indirectly and directly, women, gays, jews, atheists, pagans, transpeople and more.

Everybody wants Sweden - and of course this happens in other places - to PROVE whatever their pet beliefs are and most of them regardless of political leaning cherry picks their facts, finds a few videos on the internet showing the truth period because a few people in the target country say something.

It's a philosophy forum and yet binary thinkers with the epistemology of preschoolers never, even after years of having their deductive and inductive weaknesses pointed out to them, consider that they might want to consider

participation as a way to improve their thinking (also)

and not just somewhere to express themselves and their certainties about the world.

'
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Re: Is nazism a religion?

Postby Gloominary » Sat Jan 25, 2020 10:00 am

Urwrongx1000 wrote:
Gloominary wrote:There are some people who follow the ethical teachings of Jesus, Buddha or Mohammad and so on, but are either atheists, agnostics, deists, or believe in the miracle of divine inspiration, but not in other sorts of miracles (walking on water, turning water into wine, etcetera).

That's the Hypocrisy though and it goes both ways. Following the Ethos of a world religion or leader, is essentially 'Religion'. Again, superstition and supernatural details, are not necessary. You can claim "Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior" without believing in Divine Intervention, or specifically, defining the metaphorical interpretation of Divine Intervention, or what it means to be the son, or any relative, of any "god". Thus, what is God? What is a god? What is any god? It already begs-the-question, which most people avoid, because they lack intelligence, knowledge, wisdom, etc. They rather defer to (moral, religious) authorities.

I don't consider them to be properly religious.
It's like a rock band without guitars/drums, they're missing a key component.

Superstition is for women and children, to translate higher Ethos to them, "moral lessons", etc.

While women may tend to be more superstitious than men, it's something most women, and men used to be.

Superstition is also just about irrational hopes and fears.

Gloominary wrote:What about classical liberalism, libertarianism, do you see it as a religion, and slave-dialectic?
Myself, I don't see slave-dialectic as necessarily a bad thing.
I think we need to find the right balance between the people and the elite, rather than extremes.

Classical liberalism = universal negative rights.
Modern liberalism = universal positive rights.

Both of them are religious, in a sense.

You said it yourself. Rights, from where, from whom, by what authority?

Yup, we make them up, for whatever reasons, for social control, cohesion, because they're emotionally appealing for some.
Some sorts of rights just resonate with some people.
People feel like they need an ethos to live by, that will help ensure positive outcomes for themselves and their group.
I'm not opposed to having some ethos, but I try to be novel and nuanced about it.

Gloominary wrote:A lot of classical liberals believe their rights come from God, or are Euclidean.
Modern liberals believe in a sort of original rich white male sin that's inherited, passed down from generation to generation.
Rich white men can partly atone for this sin by showing kindness and generosity to poor black and brown women, but they can never fully atone for the crimes of their ancestors and contemporary rich white male supremacists, until all inequality between groups and individuals is eliminated.

That's the Modern-Post-Modern 'race' conundrum, inserted into everything, especially religion. Isn't "God" a rich-white-male WASP?

For them, the devil is a rich WASP male.

Gloominary wrote:
Religion can be defined between religious beliefs, and religious actions.

Right, well, modern liberals can be very religious in their ethos and behavior.
A minority of them are spiritual too.
Some of those new agers, like Marianne Williamson.
They talk a lot about Gaia, mother earth.
They talk a lot about positive and negative energy.
They say we need to heal the planet by getting off fossil fuels, treating the poor, women and indigenous peoples better, etcetera.

Wiccans and other New Age Pagans are usually quite embarrassing, by what they say. However so are Modern-Post-Modern Christians and other default religious peoples. There is "Maia" on this forum; she claims to be a wiccan and witch. She is just one example of many. Usually children and teenagers, want to "resurrect the dead", so to speak, concerning the superstitious and supernatural. People want more to believe in than real-life. Thus they seek-out ghosts, demons, angels, mystical creatures, foreign and fantasy lands, etc. Real-life is boring. Real-life is monotonous. No demons. No beasts. No after-life. Nothing. If there were a God then he is long-dead. Thus I characterize Pop Religions as dead-worshipers, death-worshipers.

Yea, that's a good way of putting it, they worship death, and what they believe follows it.
They also worship the strange and unusual, the paranormal.
Life doesn't always do it for them, they want something more, or something else.

The average "religious person", Christian for example, devotes him or herself to dead people from centuries and millenniums ago. It's like owing fealty to a long dead Monarch, or to Julius Caesar. Get over it. They want to live in the past, using rose-tinted goggles.

It's human nature, we have the capacity to self-delude, some more than others.
It's a narcotic, it can be a motivator too, it'll always be there in one form or another, so long as we're human.

The Old religions have still not updated to the New Era, the New Age, the New World Order. Secularism is only the first step toward what comes around the corner. Technology, AI, diseases, many aspects and dangers of common life are growing so fast and powerful, much of humanity will wake up, within this Century, and not even recognize the world around them. They will be passed-by, as new powers rise and overtake 'Humanity'.

There is no New World Religion or Order, yet, but the seeds are already sewn, as people seek religion and Nietzsche's Rebirth and transvaluation. When you can't believe in the Old Mythos, which is pretty much impossible at this point, then a new Mythos must take its place.


For example, look at how popular, yet controversial the Star Wars franchise has become. This is an example of that craving for Mythos. Or Star Trek, or Marvel Superhero movies, Avengers, etc.

Yup, for many secularists; celebrities, cinema, ideologies, scientism, self-help gurus, talking heads and the state have helped fill the void religion left behind.
Overt supernaturality isn't necessary to classical and modern, social liberalism, but both of them are sort of covertly supernatural, insofar as people take them to be anything more than social constructs.

Many of us have done away with the absolute lawgiver, but few with the absolute law, and duties, to oneself, one's family, friends, neighbors and so on have been replaced by rights.
I have a right to this, I have a right to that.
To freedom, says the libertarian, or to stuff, says the socialist, or to not having my feelings hurt, says the snowflake.

We can only speculate where we'll head from here.
Will there be a supernatural right-giver, like there used to be a supernatural duty-giver, and temples to this deity or deities?
Or will we do away with objective rights altogether, replace them with some other form of misobjectivity, one we can't even imagine now, or will we revert back to having objective duties?
Like I said delusion will always be there to some extent, but we can have more or less, only time will tell for sure, how they will mutate, and how delusional we'll become.
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Re: Is nazism a religion?

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Sat Jan 25, 2020 11:13 am

Gloominary wrote:Yup, for many secularists; celebrities, cinema, ideologies, scientism, self-help gurus, talking heads and the state have helped fill the void religion left behind.
Overt supernaturality isn't necessary to classical and modern, social liberalism, but both of them are sort of covertly supernatural, insofar as people take them to be anything more than social constructs.

Many of us have done away with the absolute lawgiver, but few with the absolute law, and duties, to oneself, one's family, friends, neighbors and so on have been replaced by rights.
I have a right to this, I have a right to that.
To freedom, says the libertarian, or to stuff, says the socialist, or to not having my feelings hurt, says the snowflake.

We can only speculate where we'll head from here.
Will there be a supernatural right-giver, like there used to be a supernatural duty-giver, and temples to this deity or deities?
Or will we do away with objective rights altogether, replace them with some other form of misobjectivity, one we can't even imagine now, or will we revert back to having objective duties?
Like I said delusion will always be there to some extent, but we can have more or less, only time will tell for sure, how they will mutate, and how delusional we'll become.

Superstition, Mainline Pop Religion, Paranormal, Mythos, all of these are being rapidly updated, reformed, re-worded, and the like. I see modern 'Abortion' as a form of blood-sacrifice. Doomsday Soothsayers claim the end of the world is coming "Global Warming", "Climate Change". Thus a topic like "Climate Change", is basic religious fearmongering. It's all secularized, modernizing, for the 21st Century and beyond. The same 'Ol Fear, is adapting quickly to an exponentially changing future. People want to cling onto what's familiar, when confronted with the unknowns. However the 'unknown' has been rapidly reduced after the Information era, and today. So people crave new areas to explore, a new unknown.

The Old Religions are not quelling the thirst, the desire of the masses. The masses have always craved the emotional-morphine fix, offered by Death-Cults and Death-Worship. By 2100, I believe some new religions will takeover. There are already strong surges throughout the US and Western Civilization, whether it be Mormonism, Secularism/Liberalism, Scientology, Transhumanism, and more. This is why I do believe ideology is religious, at least quasi-religious. These New Age ideologies are religions minus god, or minus the religious figure. But the cults of personality appear in other venues, as demonstrated through Pop culture, television, and movies.
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Re: Is nazism a religion?

Postby Gloominary » Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:49 pm

People are more disillusioned by the supernatural, but more illusioned by the natural.
We're not naturalists, we're quasi-naturalists.
The big bang and abiogenesis is our creation theory, finite divisibility our limitation, Ai, mass surveillance, mind and state control our God, credit and fractional reserve banking our mana from heaven, transhumanism, transsexualism, cybernetics and chimeras our attempt at oneness and completion, uploading our consciousness to VR our immortality of the soul and heaven, or hell, big pharma our snake oil salesmen, scientists our priesthood, the psychiatrist's couch our confession booth, the talking heads and science fiction writers our prophets of (mis)fortune, equality of liberty or stuff and universal brotherhood, which we rarely achieve in practice, our good/salvation, inequality and exclusivity our evil/damnation, megacorps our feudal lords, presidents and prime ministers our kings and popes, and global warming and WW3 our Apocalypse and Armageddon.

Man can do pretty amazing things sometimes, but many place too much hope, faith and trust in humanity.

Humanism, is a quasi-religion.
Last edited by Gloominary on Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:56 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Is nazism a religion?

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Sat Jan 25, 2020 1:11 pm

Early on in my life, and especially when I started philosophy, I did an experiment.

Replace the word "Humanity" with "Christianity". Replace "Human" with "Christian". And replace "human values" with "Christ".

Humanity is Post-Christianity. What people generally mean of "The Most Human" archetype, is Jesus Christ.


So ...no, humanity has not 'transcended' old religion. It is merely a re-marketing strategy. Western Civilization is just as 'Christian' as the European middle-age, if you accept the premise of 'Human' = 'Christian'.
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