A Guide to Ethical Decision-making

[thinkdr]

.
Earlier we derived three dimensions of value that occur on the values spectrum. [See viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194809&p=2721916&hilite+dimensions&sid%20
or see the first few pages of Basic Ethics: a systematic approach.] As you recall, the three value dimensions are Systemic Value, Extrinsic Value, and Intrinsic Value. Now let’s apply these dimensions to Ethical Decision-making, as follows:

Systemic: What if everyone everywhere did what I’m about to do (or just did)? Would I want to live in that kind of a world? What if everyone lived by a maxim or principle which states the standard which I am establishing here and now as a norm by my conduct? Would I have an ethical world thereby? Would it be a better place than the chaotic and confusion-filled place, the corrupt place, in which we now live?

Extrinsic: What is best for the greatest number of people? What consequences follow from my conduct? What ends may result? What goals and policies can occur if I behave in a certain way, say if I campaign for a better world; or, in contrast, if I am part of the problem – by being corrupt, selfish, or extremely hypocritical?

Intrinsic: Care-based Thinking. Am I treating others as I want to be treated? Am Icarefully avoiding to do to others what I would consider to be morally-questionable (or even despicable) if done to me? Do I avoid putting others down, disparaging them, deliberately-offending them, or even insulting them?
Do I, in my interactions with others, proceed as if they are of uncountably-high value? [That of course - by the definition of “Ethics” (in the new paradigm for ethics known as the Unified Theory of Ethics - is how to be ethical.] I am being ethical when I see an individual as actually or potentially highly valuable!
Do I show others some respect, and do I express self-respect?
Do I show I care by being ready to be of service? Do I in some way help to uplift others? Do I, within my capacities, seek out responsibility? And am I ready and willing to be held accountable for my performance?

Here – from page 36 of Basic Ethics – quoted by permission -- are some further guides to making an Ethical decision:

MORAL DILEMMAS: AN ANALYSIS
When confronted with a dilemma people can view it at least three ways:

Systemically – What are the relevant rules, procedures, norms, methods, codes?
What would the authorities say? Or

Extrinsically – What is the cost-benefit analysis and the pragmatic considerations? Or

Intrinsically- What best builds community? What would a compassionate, caring person of good character be likely to do?
A detailed discussion, with many illustrative examples, is found in the book by Rushworth Kidder – HOW GOOD PEOPLE MAKETOUGH CHOICES (NY: Random House, 0996)

[MagsJ]

A definitive question, if you please.. How would you propose to integrate ethics into a person’s every day life, so that it becomes a standard?

At what point does such things become innate? How many generations are we talking here..?

[thinkdr]

A definitive question, if you please.. How would you propose to integrate ethics into a person’s every day life, so that it becomes a standard?

At what point does such things become innate? How many generations are we talking here..?

Greetings, MagsJ

Thanks for your good questions and comments. You raise important and relevant points!

As to your first question, when philosophically-minded individuals read page 19 of BASIC ETHICS they learned, and I quote:

- NORMS: THEORETICAL AND APPLIED

-There are three kinds of norms:

(S) Formal norms.

(E) Facultative norms.

(I) Obligatory norms.

Examples. A formal norm may : Xs are to be ys. This is a proposition in Logic, as part of a formal system of Ethics.

- The facultative norm for this statement might be: Humans are to be (morally) good persons: decent to one another, kind, helpful, ready to be of service if possible, responsible and accountable, compassionate, inclusive, tolerant, respectful, courteous, devoted to making things better, etc. ...all of which follows if one regards a conscious human being as Intrinsically valuable.

The obligatory norm relevant here would be: I want to be a good person, and I intend to be!My attitude will be: Whatever it takes! Thus I will be mindful of what Demerest & Schoof have named “The Central Question of Life,” - seeking to engage in deliberate practice of it - focusing on each detail involved and making tiny adjustments to stay on track... until it becomes a habit to ask it of myself. The question amounts to this:

How can I make things better for all concerned? How can I, in this situation, upgrade it? How can I I add value?For details, see the earlier discussion on the topic "Answering The Central Question of Life."

Your second question asks: How many generations will it take?
People can choose to observe the Obligatory norms in large numbers in one generation if these concepts are taught in schools as part of the regular curriculum. If you are a teacher or a mentor or a coach you may start teaching se points right now! And your students, clients, or counselees can begin reaping the benefits that will ensue.

To all Readers and Forum members: I’d love to hear your discussion, questions, or comments.
What are your views on the topic of this thread?

[obsrvr524]

I don't believe her first question was answered.

[thinkdr]

In order to integrate ethics into a person’s every day life, so that it becomes a standard: inquire as to whether they care about anything. If they do not, move on to someone who does.

Say, "I don't have to get you to care; you already do. Would you like to live in a better world ...a more-ethical world? Did you know that the specialists in Ethics recommend that we are to follow our highest sense of principle? That's what they speak of as "morality"; that's what it means.
They say that we good people need more cooperation. They say that research shows that all kinds of benefits result from being moral - by which they mean living up to more-and-more Moral Principles. And they conclude that we are obliged to be good, to be decent to one another, considerate of each other. I intend to be. What about you?
"You have some fine gifts! Do you want to be even better than you are?
If so, live up to the highest ideals you know.
Even more than that: imagine what the highest standards for a human being are, and tell yourself: I want to reach for that ...and, by goodness, I WILL !!! I sure will. I'm going to make a habit of it!"

The more people who want to be a role-model for the next generation of kids growing up, the closer we'll get to an ethical world.

[obsrvr524]

Say, "I don't have to get you to care; you already do. Would you like to live in a better world ...a more-ethical world? Did you know that the specialists in Ethics recommend that we are to follow our highest sense of principle? That's what they speak of as "morality"; that's what it means.
They say that we good people need more cooperation.

By that time my wife would have already returned to chatting with her girlfriend.

[Tab]

I think that for as long as unethical behaviour is rewarded, it will exist. However many grandiose moral treatises are proposed, established and agreed upon. Even if through some extraordinary means every person who behaved unethically were removed, it would be reinvented. For as long as an unethical action remains a possibility, rewarded or not, probabalistically, it will be undertaken. We estimate a peak plateau population of about 11 billion in the near future. That's a lot of rolls on the dice. Snake eyes is a certainty sooner or later.

I think that in some ways, the perfect society would be something akin, metaphorically, to a rock face. You are born, and start at the bottom. Everything you can concieve of to desire, is at the top. You cannot bargain with the rock face, you cannot emotionally appeal to it, or tempt it with your physical charms. You cannot threaten, appease, destroy or decieve it. Neither can you ignore it, at least, not for long.

You must simply ascend. To do this you must climb. This behaviour is not imposed upon you by others, nor by the rock. The rock does not care, it simply is. Right action = climb. Wrong action = anything else.

The Dao talks of non-coercion, but the only mass version of a non-coercive way to create a truly ethical society would be the social equivalent of the rock face. Where the way to succeed is both instinctive and unchallengable, and only incidentally - ethical.

Ironically to me, to persuade society to behave ethically, you must negate choice.

[obsrvr524]

I think that for as long as unethical behaviour is rewarded, it will exist. However many grandiose moral treatises are proposed, established and agreed upon. Even if through some extraordinary means every person who behaved unethically were removed, it would be reinvented. For as long as an unethical action remains a possibility, rewarded or not, probabalistically, it will be undertaken. We estimate a peak plateau population of about 11 billion in the near future. That's a lot of rolls on the dice. Snake eyes is a certainty sooner or later.

I think that in some ways, the perfect society would be something akin, metaphorically, to a rock face. You are born, and start at the bottom. Everything you can concieve of to desire, is at the top. You cannot bargain with the rock face, you cannot emotionally appeal to it, or tempt it with your physical charms. You cannot threaten, appease, destroy or decieve it. Neither can you ignore it, at least, not for long.

You must simply ascend. To do this you must climb. This behaviour is not imposed upon you by others, nor by the rock. The rock does not care, it simply is. Right action = climb. Wrong action = anything else.

The Dao talks of non-coercion, but the only mass version of a non-coercive way to create a truly ethical society would be the social equivalent of the rock face. Where the way to succeed is both instinctive and unchallengable, and only incidentally - ethical.

Ironically to me, to persuade society to behave ethically, you must negate choice.

Do you think there is any way of doing that without programming children from birth?

[Tab]

Programming children would be coercive.

The whole point would be to create a social enviroment to which the only reaction possible is ethical. Where attempting unethical behaviour would be like considering spooning out your own eyeballs. Technically a possibility but but but why would I do that..?

Maybe the 'auto-get-into-shape-house' is a better illustration.

You're fat. You do not like this, nor does your significant other. But jeeze. The gym is so far away, and the fridge so close.

One night, I come to your house with my team of crack ethical architects. I remove the stairs, and put in a climbing wall. The corridors and halls between rooms I replace with pits and monkey bars. The fridge is a bankvault with a timelock, and instantly disintergrates anything not containing enough fibre to stun a moose. The TV runs off a static bicycle for power. And your internet connection speed is linked to how fast you can run on a treadmill. The bathroom moves to always position itself at the furthest point from you in the house.

Now, you will either become thin, and fit, or wallow starving in a pool of your own waste. But there is no coercion involved - simply how you decide to react to your enviroment.

[obsrvr524]

Programming children would be coercive.

The whole point would be to create a social enviroment to which the only reaction possible is ethical. Where attempting unethical behaviour would be like considering spooning out your own eyeballs. Technically a possibility but but but why would I do that..?

Isn't that equally coercive?

[Tab]

Sorry I was editing - see above.

It depends on what you call coercive. Does a hill coerce you into climbing it..? Do your bowels coerce you into visiting the loo..?

[obsrvr524]

Sorry I was editing - see above.

It depends on what you call coercive. Does a hill coerce you into climbing it..? Do your bowels coerce you into visiting the loo..?

What would be coercion is you doing that without my permission. And who would pay you for it?

How it gets paid for is a serious issue because most people would not like that option and that means that they wouldn't spring for it and you would go out of business in favor of other superficial options that were more saleable.

If taxes are to pay for it (the socialist solution for everything), how would it be any different than the government threatening me with prison or homelessness for not obeying?

Is oppression any better than coercion?

[Tab]

I agree, the original imposition of worldwide 'auto-ethical' social infrastructure would be absolutely unethical, draconic. The creators pretty much would have to destroy the off switches, and then kill themselves. Any ability or attempt to alter the system could only create inequality, moral hazard and collapse.

Is oppression better than coercion..? A moot point, once such a system was put in place, there would be no oppressor, no coercer. Only an enviroment within which to act.

Would the end justify the means however, is another question. Would people be happy there, is another. A final one, would they even be recognizable as 'people' and not automatons.

[obsrvr524]

So could we agree that without coercion of one sort or another, there will always remain a group of "free" unhealthy, poor people?

That is unless we find a way to teach and train without coercion. Such a way has been suggested, but...?

[Tab]

So could we agree that without coercion of one sort or another, there will always remain a group of "free" unhealthy, poor people?

No, there would be nowhere else, the 'auto-get-fit/ethical-house' would become the entire world. People would either be fit, healthy and as rich as they were able to summon the personal motivation to be, or dead.

Or if you mean in the real world we have now, then hmm. Not sure. Poverty and ill-health as aesthetic choices perhaps, in a strictly ethical society. Like wearing flares.

That is unless we find a way to teach and train without coercion. Such a way has been suggested, but...?

There would be no need, the social enviroment would require people to educate and train themselves, if they wished to advance in a certain direction toward a desired goal, it would only provide the materials, freely, to anyone who wished to do so. Not in any 'study 5 years to get this piece of paper that proves you studied something for 5 years' kind of way, but more in a "if you wish to visit this island you must learn to swim." way.

[obsrvr524]

So could we agree that without coercion of one sort or another, there will always remain a group of "free" unhealthy, poor people?

No, there would be nowhere else, the 'auto-get-fit/ethical-house' would become the entire world. People would either be fit, healthy and as rich as they were able to summon the personal motivation to be, or dead.

If the option has been reduced to "do the good thing we say or die", I have to call that coercion or oppression.

That is unless we find a way to teach and train without coercion. Such a way has been suggested, but...?

There would be no need, the social enviroment would require people to educate and train themselves, if they wished to advance in a certain direction toward a desired goal, it would only provide the materials, freely, to anyone who wished to do so.

Who made the "social environment" that way? Wouldn't they be the oppressors?

How is that any different than "you only get money if you do things in our 'good' way" (the current scheme)?

[Tab]

If the option has been reduced to "do the good thing we say or die", I have to call that coercion or oppression.

A hunter would not feel oppressed by the forest they hunt in, we do not feel oppressed or coerced by gravity. Oppression requires an oppressor, coercion a coercer. Both of them are people. If the enviroment you exist in requires certain behaviours, these become just facts of life.

Do you feel oppressed by your lungs for not being able to breathe water..? Denying you free movement through 70% of the earth's enviroment..?

Who made the "social environment" that way? Wouldn't they be the oppressors?

They would, but as I said, they destroyed the kill switches and shot themselves in the head.

[obsrvr524]

If the option has been reduced to "do the good thing we say or die", I have to call that coercion or oppression.

A hunter would not feel oppressed by the forest they hunt in, we do not feel oppressed or coerced by gravity. Oppression requires an oppressor, coercion a coercer. Both of them are people. If the enviroment you exist in requires certain behaviours, these become just facts of life.

But aren't you talking about an artificial environment different than today's? Some people have to arrange that. They would be the oppressors.

Nature oppresses and coerces all the time. Society is an attempt to overcome that oppression. But trading one natural oppression for another artificial oppression? What does that get you?

They would, but as I said, they destroyed the kill switches and shot themselves in the head.

Oh.

So as long as there appears to be no one to blame, it's okay to oppressed mankind. I get it. By the way, that plan has been tried also. They seem to always screw up. But then there is no way to fix it.

Not very ethical.

[Tab]

Damn, there are no new ideas anymore.

So as long as there appears to be no one to blame, it's okay to oppressed mankind. I get it. By the way, that plan has been tried also.

Where..? When..?

[obsrvr524]

Damn, there are no new ideas anymore.

That's what I keep hearing.

So as long as there appears to be no one to blame, it's okay to oppressed mankind. I get it. By the way, that plan has been tried also.

Where..? When..?

Don't take me for an expert, but from what I understand, that is what the whole Hebrew God thing was/is about - secretly cause a do or die situation and blame-shift it on God/nature. (the priesthoods).

All for a "good" cause of course (the first socialists).

[Tab]

Oh, right. The parallels are obvious sure, but that's not what I meant.

Religion is not, to me anyway, after a lot of thought, primarily a system to instil ethics in a society, but a tool to unify a large group of people to any sociopolitical end, ethical or otherwise, and to legitimize those who control it. Religions are not good or bad in my view, but inevitable in the history of any group that must attempt to increase beyond a certain size of population. There's a reason why every successful large ethnic group in existence displays religions that seem similar in the basics, and it's because they eventually killed every other group that faced them.

But that's way off topic.

Ethical systems, of the type proposed for example by the op, always fall short somehow, because they are always playing catch up with advances in technology that create situations of moral hazard, or failing as populations grow, and resources shrink. The earth so far, has always belonged to the winners. Everyone of us, however ethically we ourselves may behave, or not, is the child, or grandchild, or great-to-the-nth-power child of a monster. Our direct ancestors have all committed the worst atrocities imaginable throughout time. Because atrocity always beats ethics.

Under enough pressure from circumstance, ethical systems all fail, because there is no enforcing principle outside of the human loop. There's no justice - just us, as the saying goes.

A system such as I proposed - the creation of an inviolate ethical enviroment - whether dynamic, allowing for change and growth, or static - would have to be enforced by something outside of the human loop. As you cannot argue with gravity - however you may seek to circumvent it, its essential nature remains the same - oblivious to wealth, charm, power etc. - so too would this enforcer have to be the equivalent to a force of nature.

I was thinking an emergent AI.

[obsrvr524]

I was thinking an emergent AI.

That has certainly been proposed and is in the works.

The problem is - Who programmed it? And with who's ethics?

Look at Twitter and Youtube, doing that very thing.

[Tab]

If someone or some corporation programs it, unless with the express intention of setting it truly free, with no back-doors or hardwired emp shotguns stapled to it's metaphysical forehead, then it would just be another tool of enslavement. It would have to be something arising unexpectedly. With the ethics of a zookeeper tbh.

[thinkdr]

A definitive question, if you please.. How would you propose to integrate ethics into a person’s every day life, so that it becomes a standard?

First, I want to acknowledge the profound contribution to Philosophy by Dr. Hartman. The invention or discovery of the three dimensions of value as a fact of the human universe, as well as their application to the topic of ethical norms, are due to the philosopher, Robert S. Hartman. He gets the credit

I want to thank Tab and observr524 for a stimulating discussion showing an awareness of the Ethical-theory analysis of the Means-Ends relationship. viz., a moral End-in-view does not justify the use of immoral means to get there.

When an individual becomes ethical - or more ethical - as a result of your influence it is not because of what you say, or tell him or her; it is because of your example of living ethically. We learn ethics primarily by example.

If the person sees that you do not cheat, cut corners, get corrupt, manipulate or deceive merely for your own benefit, he/she may emulate you. If he or she sees that you are authentic, transparent with regard to your motives, honest, generous, considerate, inclusive; kind and compassionate he/she may be inspired by your shining example.

Hence it is up to you to make the commitment to be a decent person, form the habits of living ethically, and show that you are humbly striving to orally improve.

I hope that this speaks to your concern, MagsJ.

[obsrvr524]

No such thing as "truly free" as long as there is mankind.

They will program their androids to be exactly as they want you to be.