## What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor?

Discussion of the recent unfolding of history.

### Re: What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor?

I’ll say this again, because it bears repeating...

Trump inherited an infrastructure that’s almost impossible for a single president to destroy... and infrastructure that’s almost kept us attack free since 9/11. But damn, he’s trying everything in his power to denigrate and destroy them all.

The man is a traitor by inference - law deals with the deductive —- we all know trump is a traitor, that’s just not how US law works.
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### Re: What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor?

phyllo wrote:
He just asked? He didn't use the threat of withholding aid?

No he did NOT. He never mentioned the aid at all and as it turns out President Zelensky didn't even know there was any aid being held back. I believe that it was Mr Zelensky who placed the call, but I can't verify that at the moment.

This didn't copy and paste very well. You can follow the link to the actual PDF.
Transcript of the Ukraine Phone Call wrote:The President: Congratulations on a great victory. We all watched from the United States and you did a terrific.job. The way.you came from behind, -somebody who wasn't given much of a chan�e, and you ended up winning ea�ily. It'� a fantastic achievement. Congratulations.

President Zelenskyy: You· are absolutely right Mr. Presideht.• We did win big and we worked hard for _this. We worked a lot but I would like to confe$s to you that I had �n opportunity to learn from you. We used quite a few of your skills· and knowledge and were able to use .it as an example tor· our ele.ctions -and.yes it is-true that these were unique elections. We were in a·unique situation· that we· were able to achieve a unique success. I'm able to tell you the following; the first time,\ you· called me to · congratulate .me .when I won my presid�ntial election, and the second time you are now calling me when my party won the parliamentary election. I think I should run more often so you can call me more often and we can talk over the phone more often. The Pre�:ddent: [laughter] That's a very good idea. T · think your c·ount,ry is very happy about that. President Zelenskyy: Well yes, to tell you the truth, we are trying to work hard because we wanted to drain the swamp here in our country. We brought in many many new people. Not the old politicians, not the typical politicians, because we want to have a new format and a new type of government .. You are a great teacher for us and in that. The President: Well it1s·very nice of you .to say that. I will say that we do ·a lot for Ukraine. We spend a l.ot of effort and a lot.of time. Much more than the European countries are ·'doing and they should be helping.you more than.they are. Germany does almost nothing for you. All they do is talk and I think it's something that you should ·really ask them about. When I.was· ·speaking to Angela Merkel she talks Ukraine, but she ·doesn't do· anything. A lot of the European countries are the. same way· so I think it's.something you want to look at but the United States has been very·very good to Ukraine. I wouldn't say that it's reciprocal necessarily because things are happening that are not good but the United States has been very very.good to Ukraine. President Zelenskyy: Yes you are·absolutely right. �ot .only 100%, but actually 1000% arid I can tell you the following; I did talk to Angela �erkel and I did meet.with her. I also met and talked with.Macron and I told them that they are not doing quite as much as they need to be doing·on the issues with the sanctions. They are not enforcing the sanctions. They are not working as much as .they should work for Ukraine� It turns out that even though logically, the European Union should be our biggest· partner but technically the United States is a much bigger partner than.the European Union and- I'm very grateful to you for that because the United States is doing quite a· lot for Ukraine. Much more than the E"�ropean Union especially when we are talking about sanctions against the Russia,n Federation. r·· would also·li�e to thank you·for.your great support iri the area of defe.nse. We. are ready to continue to cooperate for the next steps. specifically we ar·e almost. ready to buy more Javelins from ·_ the United· States for defense purposes .. The· President: I would like you to do us a favor though because our country has been through a lot and Ukraine knows a lot about it. I would like you to find out what happened with this whole si�uation with Ukraine, they s_ay Crowdstrike ... I guess you have one of your wealthy people... The server, they say Ukraine has.it� There-are a lot. of things that went on, the· :whole situation .. I think you1 re _surrounding yourse·lf with some of the same people. I .would like to have the Attorney General call you or your people and I would like you t� ·get to the bottom of it�. As you sa� yest�rday, that whole nonsetise ended with a very poor performance by a man named Robert Mue�le_r, an incompetent performance-, _but they. say a lot of it started with Ukraine. Whatever you can do, ·it's very important that· you. do it if that's possible. President Zelenskyy: Yes it is. very important for me and everything that you just mentioned earlier. For me as a President,-· it is very important and we are open for any future cooperation. We are ready to· open a new page on �ooperation in . relations between the United· States and Ukraine.· For that· purpose, I just recalled our.ambassador from United States and he will be replaced by a very competent and very experienced ambassador who wtll work hard on making sure that our two nations are getting clciser. I would also like and hope to see him having your trust and y9ur .confidence and _have persona·1 relations·with you so we c�n cooperate even �ore so. I· wili. personally tell you that one· of my assistants· spoke with Mr. Giuliani just.recently and we are hoping very much that Mr. G1uliani will be able to travel to Ukraine and.we will meet once ·he co�es to Ukraine. I just wanted to assure you once again_that you _have nobody but friends around-us. I w.ill make sure -that-I surro�nd myself with the best and most experienced people._ I also· wanted to·tell you that we are friends. We are great· friends and you Mr. President have. friends -in our country so we can continue our strategic·�artn�rship. I also plan to surround · myself with great people ·and in addition to that investigation, I guarantee as the President of Ukraine that all the investigations.will be done_openly and candidly .. That I can assure you .. The Pre·sident: Good because I· heard you had a prosecutor who· was very·good and he was shut down and that's really unfair. _·A lot of people are talking about that, the way they shut your �ery good prosecutor down and you had some �ery bad people involved. Mr. Giuliani is a highly respected man. He was the_ mayor bf New York Ci:ty, a great mayor, and I would like him to call you. I will ask him to call yoti along with the Attorney·_ ··General.· :Rudy very much knows what's happening and he is a very capable guy. If you could _speak to him that would be great. The former ambassador from the United$tates,· the woman., was bad news �nd th� people she was dealing with in.the Ukraine.were bad news so I jtist wan� to_let you know that� The ot�er thing, There's a lot 6f.talk about Biden's son,. that Eiden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that so whatever you can do with the Attorney General would be great. Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution so if you ·can look into it ... It sounds horrible to me.

President Zelenskyy: I wanted to tell ·you about the prosecutor� First df �11 I understand arid I'm kn6wledgeable .abotit the situation. Sine� we ha�e �on· the ab�olute majority in our Parliament; the next prosecutor .general will be 100%_ my person, my c'andidate, who will be approved, by the parliament and will start. a_s a new prosecutor in September. He or she will look. into the situation, specifically to the company that you -mentioned in :this issue. The issue of the investigation of the case is �ctually the issui of �aking sure to res�o�e the honesty so we will take care of.that and wi11·wo:tk on the investigation of the case. On top of that, I would kindly ask you if you have any additional information that you can provide ·to µs, it would_ be very helpful · for the investigation t·o make· sur.e that we administer justice i':r1 our country with regc:ird: to the Ambassador to the United States from Ukraine as far as I recall her name was Ivanovicli. It was great that you were the first one. who told me that she was a bad ambassador because I agree·with you 100%. Her attitude to.wards me was far from the best as she admired the previous President and she was on his· side. She would not accept �e as a new President· well enough. . . . .

The President: Well, ·she' s going tO go through some things. I will.have Mr. Giuliani.give you a call and I _am. also going to have.Attorney General Barr call and we will get to· the bottom of it. I'm sure you will figure it o�t. I heard the prosecutor was treated very badly and he was a very fa�r prosecuto_r so good luck with everything. Your. economy is going-· to get better and bett.er I pre .diet. You have a lot· of a,ssets. It's a great country. I have many Ukrainian friends, their incredible ·people.

President Z�lenskyy: I would like to tell you that I also have.quite a few·Ukrain1an friends that live iri the United· States. ·Actually last time I traveled to the Unit'ed States, I stayed in New York n�ar Central Park and I stayed at the Trump_ Tower. I will t ·alk to thetn and I hope to see t_hem· again in the future. I also wa·nted to _.thank you .for your invitation to visit the United States, specifically Washington DC. On ,the other hand, I also wartt td ensur� ·you that we will. be ��ry serious about.the case and will work on the investigation. As to.the economy, there is much potential for our two countries and o_ne of · the ·issues. that is ve:;ry important for Ukraine is· energy independence. I believe we can b� very succ�ssful. and cooperating on energy independence witp United States. We -are already working on cooperation. We are buying Americ�n oil but I am very hopeful for-·a future meeting. We will have more time and more opportunitie� to discuss these opportunities· and get to know each other better. I would like to thank you very much for your s-v.pport

The President: Good. Well,. thank you very much and I appreciate that. I will tell Rudy and Attorney General Barr to.· call. Thank you. Whenever you would like -to come to the White House,. feel ·fr�e to call. ·Give us a date and we'll work that. out. I ·1ook forward to seeing you.

President ·zelens�yy: Thank ·you very much. I would be very happy to come and would be happy to meet with you per�onally and I . . . get to know. you better. ::r: am l.ooking forward to our meeting arid I .also would like ·-to invite you to visit Ukraine and come to the city bf Kyiv which is a beautiful city. We have a beautiful country Which would welcome you. On the other hand, I believe that on Septernber_l we will be in Poland and we can meet in Poland hopefully. After that,· it might be a very good idea for you to.travel to Ukraine. We can either take my plane and go to Ukraine or we can take your plane, which is probably mucl� better than mine.

The President: Okay,. ·we can work that ·out. I look forwar·a to seeing you in Washington and maybe in· Poland beca·use I think we are going to be there at that tlme . .

President · Zelenskyy: Thank you very much Mr. President.

The President:· Congratulations on· a fantastic job you've done-. The whole world was watching. I'm not sure it was so much of an upset but congratulations. (B/HF' President Zelenskyy: Thank you Mr. President bye-bye ..
End
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obsrvr524
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### Re: What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor?

No he did NOT. He never mentioned the aid at all and as it turns out President Zelensky didn't even know there was any aid being held back. I believe that it was Mr Zelensky who placed the call, but I can't verify that at the moment
The phone call is only a part of it.

The Trump administration's top diplomat to Ukraine, Bill Taylor, testified that he was told U.S. military aid to Ukraine and a Trump–Zelensky White House meeting were conditioned on Zelensky publicly announcing investigations into the Bidens and alleged Ukrainian interference in the 2016 U.S. elections.[15] U.S. ambassador to the European Union Gordon Sondland testified that he worked with Giuliani at Trump's "express direction" to arrange a quid pro quo with the Ukraine government.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump%E2% ... ne_scandal
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### Re: What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor?

The Trump administration's top diplomat to Ukraine, Bill Taylor, testified that he was told U.S. military aid to Ukraine and a Trump–Zelensky White House meeting were conditioned on Zelensky publicly announcing investigations into the Bidens and alleged Ukrainian interference in the 2016 U.S. elections.[15] U.S. ambassador to the European Union Gordon Sondland testified that he worked with Giuliani at Trump's "express direction" to arrange a quid pro quo with the Ukraine government.

Look into WHO told him that. It was an issue of amb Sondland presuming (because that is how all politicians think) and relaying that thought to someone who relayed it to someone who relayed it to someone and back to Sonland. Mr Trump told amb Sondland directly that he only wanted Mr Zelensky to do as he promised in his campaign and that he wanted "no qui quo pro" concerning anything. Amb Sondland finally admitted that in the hearing.

Additionally Giuliani suggested to amb Sondland that the sooner Mr Trump knew that Zelensky was going to be honest, the sooner the aid would be released. And he then suggested a public announcement so that there would be no question.

The aid was being held up for two other reasons, having nothing to do with any qui pro quo. The aid was already scheduled to be released anyway, by US law. Mr Trump was delaying it to maximize the US's stand in negotiating with Europe (such delays are common and proven). It had nothing to do with the investigations. And the aid was delivered without any reciprocation other than testimony from US Senators and Giuliani that Mr Zelensky was an honest man doing as he promised.

Nothing Mr Trump said or did was illegal nor even unethical.
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### Re: What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor?

Let the trial go ahead and let witnesses testify in the Senate.

We will see what happens.
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### Re: What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor?

phyllo wrote:Let the trial go ahead and let witnesses testify in the Senate.

We will see what happens.
Pelosi is holding up the trial because she knows that their case is vacuous. She is hoping that Shiff will come up with additional charges to claim.

McConnell is ready to go in the Senate. Schumer is trying to force McConnell to run the trial the way the House wants it run (very corruptly as they did with the impeachment). McConnell says he intends to run the trial exactly as it was with Mr Clinton. Pelosi then shifts the blame for her delay on McConnell for not going along with Schumer and her.

It is the devil pursuing an innocent man. Woe be to those who fought the devil's battle.
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### Re: What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor?

Again I have to accept that to be as much of a concession as I could ever expect on a board like this one.

So if anyone is still reading this, how should we rate phyllo - "dd", "wd", or "js"?

Personally, I can't place him/her into the js category. Phyllo followed the ball from point to point, whether agreeing or not. Stupid people don't usually do that. They either stand on the home plate waiting for the next ball to be thrown more amiably or they take off randomly running out into the field perchance stepping on a plate then claiming "home run". There are a few on this board who seem to fit that category, but not phyllo as depicted in this thread (I haven't looked back to study him .. yet).

So that leaves wd and dd. Wd is harder to identify with certainty because it involves motive. But typically the wd will never give in to any proof. He will just deny and attempt to shift the goal post and confuse the readers, keeping the adversary off balance. And that is when they are willing to debate at all. Phyllo did not admit error openly, but he did indicate by his demeanor that he had conceded to prior argumentation before jumping to another issue.

So even though it isn't impossible, I would think it unlikely that phyllo belongs in the wd category.

For me, it seems at this point, I have to, at least for a while, accept that phyllo is (or has been) a "dd", deeply deceived).

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obsrvr524
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### Re: What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor?

obsrvr524 wrote:Again I have to accept that to be as much of a concession as I could ever expect on a board like this one.

So if anyone is still reading this, how should we rate phyllo - "dd", "wd", or "js"?

Personally, I can't place him/her into the js category. Phyllo followed the ball from point to point, whether agreeing or not. Stupid people don't usually do that. They either stand on the home plate waiting for the next ball to be thrown more amiably or they take off randomly running out into the field perchance stepping on a plate then claiming "home run". There are a few on this board who seem to fit that category, but not phyllo as depicted in this thread (I haven't looked back to study him .. yet).

So that leaves wd and dd. Wd is harder to identify with certainty because it involves motive. But typically the wd will never give in to any proof. He will just deny and attempt to shift the goal post and confuse the readers, keeping the adversary off balance. And that is when they are willing to debate at all. Phyllo did not admit error openly, but he did indicate by his demeanor that he had conceded to prior argumentation before jumping to another issue.

So even though it isn't impossible, I would think it unlikely that phyllo belongs in the wd category.

For me, it seems at this point, I have to, at least for a while, accept that phyllo is (or has been) a "dd", deeply deceived).

I don't think that your "Trump is top cop" argument is valid. High crimes and misdemeanors clearly covers the case of someone with power over agencies using them to target his political opponents. (There was an example of it in the wiki quote that I posted.)

I don't think targeting political opponents is a legitimate part of international diplomacy.

But I don't say that you are deceived, deceiving or stupid if you disagree with me.

I also don't think that this latest post of yours is appropriate for a philosophy discussion forum.

It's an unpleasant end to the discussion.

I don't really feel like talking to you again.

Make up whatever narrative you want to explain my feelings.
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### Re: What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor?

I also take issue with Demonizing NON QUID PRO QUO investigations from other countries.

When you’re dealing with the highest office in the land, you should be the most vetted person on earth. Why they complain about this is beyond me.

Spying on trumps campaign before he was elected?

Good for them!!

The question then becomes one of resources.

There is a great imbalance of resources for a sitting president to an up coming opponent.

I don’t think politically that’s the case for Biden ... Biden has equal social capital to trump.

We’re not really dealing with power imbalance in this case, so I think both sides should shut up about this.

Here’s the deal. At this level of politics, EVERYONE is vetted the fuck out of. I would expect nothing less.

How much of this becomes public in every cycle ? Not much!

The idea that both trump and Biden complain about their vetting is absurd to me. These are grown men.

Honestly!
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### Re: What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor?

phyllo wrote:I don't think that your "Trump is top cop" argument is valid. High crimes and misdemeanors clearly covers the case of someone with power over agencies using them to target his political opponents. (There was an example of it in the wiki quote that I posted.)

Supervisor authority is not executive authority. The board of directors can fire the president or CEO of a corporation. That doesn't mean that they run the corporation. The CEO makes the decisions but if his decisions lead in a bad direction, the board can get rid of him.

The same is true for the US President. Congress (the "board of directors") does not run the nation. But if the President's decisions get too far out of line, they can "fire" the President.

Similarly the population doesn't run Congress or the nation, yet they can fire everyone official throughout the nation. The people have the ultimate authority in the US. That is what makes it different. But the population is not in charge of hardly anything. They pay others to do that within limits. They just have to keep their eye on the limits. And that is where the media comes in to try to manipulate the population into voting toward giving up their right to fire anyone or even have a say in what games are being played upon them.

phyllo wrote:I don't think targeting political opponents is a legitimate part of international diplomacy.

He targeted a criminal organization who happened to be a political opponent.

So do you think that as long as someone is running for office, they should never be investigated?

They certainly haven't minded investigating Mr Trump. Now the shoe is on the other foot.
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### Re: What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor?

I suspect the arguments for or against the impeachment of Trump [or for or against Trumpworld itself] are embedded in the arguments raised here:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/29/opin ... e=Homepage

In other words, the moral majority is still out there in the Heartland. In regards to things like race and religion and gender and sex and "social issues", a large swath of the country wants to reconfigure America into what they imagine life was like here back in the fifties.

It's folks like me -- moral relativists -- they most fear.

Instead, they want the is/ought world to become just another component of the objectivist either/or world that they yearn for. The one they carry around inside their head.

For some of course that is very, very scary. And not just liberals.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

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iambiguous: a post from Pedro?

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### Re: What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor?

"Liberals are people with bad ideas"
"Conservatives are bad people with ideas."

If you are a global socialist then Mr Trump is the devil betraying your ideals.

If you are a constitutionalist then the American socialist party (the "Democrats") are betraying the Constitution and the citizens.

The question here isn't about whether Mr Trump or the global socialists are good people. The only question here is whether Mr Trump has actually been doing his job.

The more simple truth is that the global socialists have extorted the House Democrats into going along with whatever gets rid of Mr Trump regardless of what he has done. "Kangaroo Court".
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### Re: What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor?

Thing is iambiguous, trump and Barr don’t actually believe this shit.

The Republican Party is the party of the super-rich.

Obviously, they can’t really get votes for that; so! They’ve become a “control group party”.

America is an evangelical Christian nation, so all they have to do is pander to evangelical Christians (even though they don’t believe any of it - nor should anyone else (because it’s bullshit))

All the republicans care about is the statistics, not the morals.

Me personally? I’ll have every Christian who’s ever been on earth stand before me in judgement.

Christians like to say “don’t judge” when it’s convenient ... I tell them all, “judge me with all your might, one man, with your collective might of billions and see what happens”
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### Re: What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor?

America is an evangelical Christian nation, so all they have to do is pander to evangelical Christians (even though they don’t believe any of it - nor should anyone else (because it’s bullshit))
I thought America is controlled by the Jews.

Is that not applicable in this case?
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### Re: What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor?

phyllo wrote:
America is an evangelical Christian nation, so all they have to do is pander to evangelical Christians (even though they don’t believe any of it - nor should anyone else (because it’s bullshit))
I thought America is controlled by the Jews.

Is that not applicable in this case?

Interesting. The Jewish population are “the people of the book” as Muslims call them.

Religion to me has no redeeming quality.

Christians not killing the Jews is like a son not killing the mother and father who lovingly raised them.

I posit the same thing to the Jews... let your 30 million over world history judge me with all of your might and see what happens!

You do have to admit that the Jews for their population are over represented in world history. I mean, what are 30 million Latvians ??? Nothing.

At my level of attainment, and I don’t consider it supreme ... the Jews are just a mote of dust not to be bothered with.

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### Re: What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor?

Ecmandu wrote:The Republican Party is the party of the super-rich.

The much greater number of billionaires are in the American socialist party, the Democrats.

Bloomberg, at $55 billion is the leading rich man in the party's presidential candidate race. He, after skipping the debates where he would have to answer embarrassing questions, simply bought his first 5 points in the poles using a few tens of millions dollars putting him ahead of most of the other candidates. I'm guessing that he will be the one running against Mr Trump. He owns a news outlet and has already directed them to never investigate any democrat, only Mr Trump. The CEO of CNN, Jeff Zucker, made the same directive last year. The USA has a very serious media problem. Actual journalists are apparently hard to find and immediately targeted by the socialists. Last edited by obsrvr524 on Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:19 am, edited 1 time in total. You have been observed. obsrvr524 Thinker Posts: 999 Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:03 am ### Re: What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor? Oh my! You really want me to get into Bloomberg/guiliani?? I don’t think this board could handle the seizures! Seriously though! Ecmandu ILP Legend Posts: 11029 Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:22 am ### Re: What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor? Reread the edited post. You have been observed. obsrvr524 Thinker Posts: 999 Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:03 am ### Re: What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor? obsrvr524 wrote: Ecmandu wrote:The Republican Party is the party of the super-rich. The much greater number of billionaires are in the American socialist party, the Democrats. Bloomberg, at$55 billion is the leading rich man in the party's presidential candidate race. He, after skipping the debates where he would have to answer embarrassing questions, simply bought his first 5 points in the poles using a few tens of millions dollars putting him ahead of most of the other candidates.

I'm guessing that he will be the one running against Mr Trump.

He owns a news outlet and has already directed them to never investigate any democrat, only Mr Trump. The CEO of CNN, Jeff Zucker, made the same directive last year.

The USA has a very serious media problem. Actual journalists are apparently hard to find and immediately targeted by the socialists.

The reason MOST people are in the Democratic Party is because of pro choice.

Bill gates, Bloomberg, the almost 3,000,000 more people who voted for Hilary.

The republicans are a focus group party pandering to the evangelicals ... Donald trump is probably pro choice ... but he would have never won statistically if he was. Like a man who owns casinos, he betted on the house, and (duh) won.

America is too fucked up to elect a president anymore.

Maybe that will change maybe it won’t.

Either way, I have a lot more respect for a candidate (or party, and I hate Democrat’s too), that isn’t a soulless focus group.
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### Re: What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor?

Behind the Ukraine Aid Freeze: 84 Days of Conflict and Confusion

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/29/us/p ... y-aid.html

Fake news?
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### Re: What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor?

phyllo wrote:
Behind the Ukraine Aid Freeze: 84 Days of Conflict and Confusion

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/29/us/p ... y-aid.html

Fake news?

Do you agree that "fake news" = biased opinion reported as unbiased journalistic fact?
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