Transhuminism

[Peter Kropotkin]

I saw a couple of posters comment negatively on
Transhumanism and frankly, I had no idea what
transhumanism was..... so I did some research.....

I was surprised at the negative comments because we
are already in the begining of the transhumanism era....

we use technology to improve our lives.... for example,
I wear a hearing aid in my left ear....and as I am deaf in
right ear, my audologist would like me to get a cochlear inplant......
I just don't have the 20,000 dollars for one...... a hearing aid or
a cochlear inplant is just a small scale computer which can
download information onto a computer......... we use techology
all the time to improve our lives physically, pacemakers,
heart stents are also some physical means to improve our lives.....

now the more important question is, does technology
improve our lives morally or emotionally or intelligently?
Not so far because of the fact is, technology must
be "programmed" as it were, so it requires us to provide
the "programming", or said another way, garbage in, garbage out...
the programming requires us to be intelligent in the first place to
be able to use technology as a means to improve our lives morally,
emotionally, intellectually....

the wise use of technology requires wisdom to begin with......

but as far as transhumanism being "good" or "evil", it isn't either, yet,
because the use of technology, which btw, ought to be a school course
every human being should take, "technology and its uses morally"
technology is good or evil based on its use, how people use technology
decides if it is "good" or "evil".... technology per se isn't "good" or "evil",
it is how it is used.... like everything else... it is morally neutral, its
use decides it moral value.......

so I see no objections per se about the technology and its uses,
including to using technology as we use it today, to augment and
aid people in being able to see, hear, walk, talk, taste and touch.....
and I foresee technology in the future to be even better at its uses
in allowing people to be fully functional.......


Kropotkin

[Meno_]

I saw a couple of posters comment negatively on
Transhumanism and frankly, I had no idea what
transhumanism was..... so I did some research.....

I was surprised at the negative comments because we
are already in the begining of the transhumanism era....

we use technology to improve our lives.... for example,
I wear a hearing aid in my left ear....and as I am deaf in
right ear, my audologist would like me to get a cochlear inplant......
I just don't have the 20,000 dollars for one...... a hearing aid or
a cochlear inplant is just a small scale computer which can
download information onto a computer......... we use techology
all the time to improve our lives physically, pacemakers,
heart stents are also some physical means to improve our lives.....

now the more important question is, does technology
improve our lives morally or emotionally or intelligently?
Not so far because of the fact is, technology must
be "programmed" as it were, so it requires us to provide
the "programming", or said another way, garbage in, garbage out...
the programming requires us to be intelligent in the first place to
be able to use technology as a means to improve our lives morally,
emotionally, intellectually....

the wise use of technology requires wisdom to begin with......

but as far as transhumanism being "good" or "evil", it isn't either, yet,
because the use of technology, which btw, ought to be a school course
every human being should take, "technology and its uses morally"
technology is good or evil based on its use, how people use technology
decides if it is "good" or "evil".... technology per se isn't "good" or "evil",
it is how it is used.... like everything else... it is morally neutral, its
use decides it moral value.......

so I see no objections per se about the technology and its uses,
including to using technology as we use it today, to augment and
aid people in being able to see, hear, walk, talk, taste and touch.....
and I foresee technology in the future to be even better at its uses
in allowing people to be fully functional.......


Kropotkin

Your making some good points here, but the emphasis on technological focus, blurs applications to the obfuscation of the science of political reality, meaning it is left to the reader to think through between the lines. How does technology directly influence transhumanism , or the furtherance, or lack of?

[Peter Kropotkin]

as far as I can tell, technology and transhumanism IS the same thing....
the question becomes, can technology make us smarter or wiser or braver or
kinder or more loving? Not that I can tell, technology, so far, can only augment
us, allow us to hear or see or touch better, it doesn't create any values or
comment upon the values we use.... technology cannot/does not allow
any commentary upon values we depend on as humans, values like
love, hate, anger, hope, equality/justice....among other values......

the point to remember about technology is that it is, neutral in its existence......
its use creates the values we ascribe to technology... not the technology itself.....
the splitting of the atom is, as an action, neutral, it use in atomic bombs
is what creates, an evil.......

Kropotkin

[Peter Kropotkin]

actually upon reflection, one could make the case that the collapse of
ism's and ideology coincides with the rise of the industrial age....
and the industrial age is all about technology....... it uses and abuses....

has the rise of techology made the judgments of ism's and ideologies irrelevant?

and does this bode well or badly upon our future?

Kropotkin

[Meno_]

actually upon reflection, one could make the case that the collapse of
ism's and ideology coincides with the rise of the industrial age....
and the industrial age is all about technology....... it uses and abuses....

has the rise of techology made the judgments of ism's and ideologies irrelevant?

and does this bode well or badly upon our future?

Kropotkin

Again right on the money. The technological industrial revolution displaced the small guild mode of production. , and caused the sudden development of unequal asset capitalization , forcing small time producers into the role of consumers.

The isms proclaimed in black letter, parted company with the modes of production and control.

The meaning of technology may not coincide with utilizing human interaction , by ideological prescription toward known existing social contracts, but the processes of downward mobility, and the meaning and value of those affected, certainly becomes obvious.

Thus the failure of pragmatism, an outdated basis of a system where small owner producers could still avoid the middle man.

The natural capitalizationn of technology , points to disparity between the ones in knowledge and application of control- of markets to various levels of accession to them, as well the displacement of these values toward. increasing value assigned by and to the top levels of management in the applied science community.

The disparity does not reach a manageable stasis, in an a growing economy, the movement is always upwards or downwards.

That critical levels have been reached is indicative of the increasingly volatile daily contradictory message put out.

[Peter Kropotkin]

actually upon reflection, one could make the case that the collapse of
ism's and ideology coincides with the rise of the industrial age....
and the industrial age is all about technology....... it uses and abuses....

has the rise of techology made the judgments of ism's and ideologies irrelevant?

and does this bode well or badly upon our future?

Kropotkin

Again right on the money. The technological industrial revolution displaced the small guild mode of production. , and caused the sudden development of unequal asset capitalization , forcing small time producers into the role of consumers.

The isms proclaimed in black letter, parted company with the modes of production and control.

The meaning of technology may not coincide with utilizing human interaction , by ideological prescription toward known existing social contracts, but the processes of downward mobility, and the meaning and value of those affected, certainly becomes onvious to them.

Thus the failure of pragmatism, an outdated basis of a system where small owner producers could still avoid the middle man.

The natural capitalisation of technology loterrely points to disparity between the ones in knowledge and application of control- of markets to various levels of accession to them

K: I will respond to this as soon as I figure out what this post means......

Kropotkin

[Meno_]

actually upon reflection, one could make the case that the collapse of
ism's and ideology coincides with the rise of the industrial age....
and the industrial age is all about technology....... it uses and abuses....

has the rise of techology made the judgments of ism's and ideologies irrelevant?

and does this bode well or badly upon our future?

Kropotkin

Again right on the money. The technological industrial revolution displaced the small guild mode of production. , and caused the sudden development of unequal asset capitalization , forcing small time producers into the role of consumers.

The isms proclaimed in black letter, parted company with the modes of production and control.

The meaning of technology may not coincide with utilizing human interaction , by ideological prescription toward known existing social contracts, but the processes of downward mobility, and the meaning and value of those affected, certainly becomes onvious to them.

Thus the failure of pragmatism, an outdated basis of a system where small owner producers could still avoid the middle man.

The natural capitalisation of technology loterrely points to disparity between the ones in knowledge and application of control- of markets to various levels of accession to them

K: I will respond to this as soon as I figure out what this post means......

Kropotkin

Sorrily, Your response came before the edited version, please refer to that.

[Zero_Sum]

Transhumanism is a radical anti human philosophy because it seems to want to alter and change human nature entirely whereby doing so we would simply stop being human entirely becoming something much else. You can see this with transhumanism concepts of cyborg augmentation, consciousness transference into computers, and even some of their more delusional writings of wanting to get rid of death itself for immortality.

I am a big critic of advancing technology, automation, and A.I. because most simply do not possess the knowledge of the kinds of horrendous consequences it will have on society going fourth in the long term future. It is clear to me that the more you make people dependent on technology the more they become slaves and this is never really a good thing for people that aspire towards independence. Also, the correlation between technological innovation and social inequality is a huge one.

Then there is the robotization or mechanization of the military, if you think the military police state is horrible enough now just wait until it all becomes automated.

Finally, there are so many numerous threats of artificial intelligence that any sensible philosopher should already know about them. Artificial intelligence could threaten the entire existence of civilization itself.

[Peter Kropotkin]

Transhumanism is a radical anti human philosophy because it seems to want to alter and change human nature entirely whereby doing so we would simply stop being human entirely becoming something much else. You can see this with transhumanism concepts of cyborg augmentation, consciousness transference into computers, and even some of their more delusional writings of wanting to get rid of death itself for immortality.

I am a big critic of advancing technology, automation, and A.I. because most simply do not possess the knowledge of the kinds of horrendous consequences it will have on society going fourth in the long term future. It is clear to me that the more you make people dependent on technology the more they become slaves and this is never really a good thing for people that aspire towards independence. Also, the correlation between technological innovation and social inequality is a huge one.

Then there is the robotization or mechanization of the military, if you think the military police state is horrible enough now just wait until it becomes automated.

K: there are several assumptions in your post... one is the more dependent on technology people
become, the more they become it slaves..... and that people do actually aspire toward
indendence.... that transhumanism is actually anti-human.... I don't believe it is...
human nature is changed by technology regardless if it is implanted inside of us or
the technology of the Iphone or TV's or self-driving cars... each piece of techology changes
human nature... human nature is impacted by the things around it....
and human nature is changed by the ism's and ideologies around it and human nature
is changed by the enviroment around it...... everything impacts human nature....
human nature is not this set thing in the universe that never moves...
we are different and profoundly different then our grandparents because
the technology we live with is different then the technology our grandparents
had... mind you, I am quite a bit older then you.. My Grandparents, who I never
met, were born 1900 or earlier...my mom was born in 1935 and I was born in 1959....
so the technology my grandparents had is substantually different then what your
grandparents had....and that changes everything... Human nature is different because
of the events of the 20th century... the two World Wars and the depression and
the Holocaust and the cold war and 9/11.... events/experiences change who we
are and changes our nature, both individually and collectivly.....human nature
is not set in its ways... it changes and often changes dramatically depending
on the events/experiences ones has....individuall and/or collectivly......

Kropotkin

[WendyDarling]

Transhumanists are pushing for technology to replace biology thus eliminating our species, humanity.

[Peter Kropotkin]

Transhumanists are pushing for technology to replace biology thus eliminating our species, humanity.

K: to a large degree, we already use technology to replace biology... once again,
I point out my use of a hearing aid to replace biology.... and the species,
the human species, we are changing every single day in numerous ways....

I am different in many ways then people 500 year ago....
I am, and we are, taller then our forefathers, we live longer,
we are healthier, we are, I am guessing here but I believe we
are on the whole, smarter then people 500 years ago....

this is yet again another example of fear of techology
and science driving your thought process.....as we evolve
from apes to human, we shall, if we exist long enough, shall
evolve into something else..the human being is not a fixed, set
creature that doesn't change or evolve....I am different then my parents
and evolution is the reason for that...from two different individuals, comes
a third different individual.........now because of the rules we have
inside of us, DNA, we cannot evolve randomly... we cannot for example,
grow wings... that is not programed into our DNA....the rules of being human
are fairly specific... if we don't follow those rules or the rules are violated
in some fashion, we are no longer a human being and that my friends,
is ok... because we came from something else and we will become something
else... being human is just another step along the process of life....if you fear
losing your human nature, you just aren't paying attention of evolution or
you don't understand it.... evolution is the process of change.. that change is
not divinely organized.. but random... even if we use technology to change
ourselves, it will lack organizing principles....that is how this works.....

the road of becoming isn't a planned or set road... but a road that
happens along the way... and the use of technology is something that
happens along the way, it is not the point of, but a tool of being human....

what you fear is really in your head and not the reality of the matter...
but that is constant of thinkers of your ilk.... you react to your thinking,
instead of the reality of any given situation.....for we are changing
and we will continue to change and we will push for and strive for change.....
that is the true nature of being human.... change and not the static
nature you want..... human nature is change... learn to deal with that.....

Kropotkin

[WendyDarling]

Replacing human biology with metal and wire circuitry is not the natural change which evolution is, Peter. I'm pleased that technology could aid you Peter, but you are missing our point that transhumanists desire all biology to be replaced, upgraded, killing humanity essentially.

[Zero_Sum]

Transhumanism is a radical anti human philosophy because it seems to want to alter and change human nature entirely whereby doing so we would simply stop being human entirely becoming something much else. You can see this with transhumanism concepts of cyborg augmentation, consciousness transference into computers, and even some of their more delusional writings of wanting to get rid of death itself for immortality.

I am a big critic of advancing technology, automation, and A.I. because most simply do not possess the knowledge of the kinds of horrendous consequences it will have on society going fourth in the long term future. It is clear to me that the more you make people dependent on technology the more they become slaves and this is never really a good thing for people that aspire towards independence. Also, the correlation between technological innovation and social inequality is a huge one.

Then there is the robotization or mechanization of the military, if you think the military police state is horrible enough now just wait until it becomes automated.

K: there are several assumptions in your post... one is the more dependent on technology people
become, the more they become it slaves..... and that people do actually aspire toward
indendence.... that transhumanism is actually anti-human.... I don't believe it is...
human nature is changed by technology regardless if it is implanted inside of us or
the technology of the Iphone or TV's or self-driving cars... each piece of techology changes
human nature... human nature is impacted by the things around it....
and human nature is changed by the ism's and ideologies around it and human nature
is changed by the enviroment around it...... everything impacts human nature....
human nature is not this set thing in the universe that never moves...
we are different and profoundly different then our grandparents because
the technology we live with is different then the technology our grandparents
had... mind you, I am quite a bit older then you.. My Grandparents, who I never
met, were born 1900 or earlier...my mom was born in 1935 and I was born in 1959....
so the technology my grandparents had is substantually different then what your
grandparents had....and that changes everything... Human nature is different because
of the events of the 20th century... the two World Wars and the depression and
the Holocaust and the cold war and 9/11.... events/experiences change who we
are and changes our nature, both individually and collectivly.....human nature
is not set in its ways... it changes and often changes dramatically depending
on the events/experiences ones has....individuall and/or collectivly......

Kropotkin

This robotic or automation revolution that is suppose to sweep over the planet is nothing like the industrial revolution. In the industrial revolution tools and machines changed in technology but the need of human labor was still ever present. A robotic or automation revolution revolving around transhumanism seeks to get rid of human labor altogether which is something very radically different entirely.

Your view of human nature is a childish naive one that believes in the original incorruptible position of natural goodness separate from civilization itself. Actual human nature is the complete opposite and it is why liberal politics incidentally is doomed to failure. Your idealism doesn't understand human nature whatsoever. Human nature is a fixed thing in the world whether you accept that or not, how exactly has human nature changed as you would argue?

You of course completely ignore my mentioning of the dangers of artificial intelligence, no surprise there. You also won't even mention a single instance of negative consequences regarding transhumanism as philosophy or ideology.

[encode_decode]

I actually wonder whether there is enough people left that care enough to take action against the negative effects of transhuminism. Taking action that works requires numbers of people and numbers of people who can actually make a difference is what is required to avoid a potentially monstrous situation. I see much apathy in people and I also see much defeatist attitudes in people. I believe people could make a difference and see technology stay in its place as useful but I have my doubts that the human race generally speaking has the backbone to make a difference, a difference that could save our humanity.

Perhaps I am being a little defeatist.

[Karpel Tunnel]

I am different in many ways then people 500 year ago....

Hardly different at all. The same set of emotions, cognition types, physical needs and physiological processes. Transhumans cannot wait to replace all flesh, to modify at a pace evolution never follows AND based on ideas, rather than gradual changes adjusting individuals and the species to the environment. There is a great hatred of the human body in transhumanism. It is seen as flawed even when healthy. This is not hearing aids to replace a damaged organ. This is deciding that the entire thing, including neuronal and endocrine systems, the very cells, should be replaced by nanotech made structures made from materials not currently in bodies. DN'A itself will be eliminated in the name of immortality.

Wearing lipstick and getting those fake, bloated not able to move as well as normal lips - which interferes with the experience of emotions- are not quantitatively different, they are qualitatively different. and that is nothing compared to the changes the transhumanists with their hatred of organic life are after.

The do not like humans. The hatred of human emotions underlying the radical psychotropic dulling of emotions through psychiatric over precription and pathologizing of human reactions to current society - along with not or less pernicious uses of medications like that- is a baby step in the direction transhumanists want to go. And precisely the same kinds of corporate idiocy and hubris will go into the transformation that go into the makeovers of depressed middle aged women on those plastic surgery reality shows.

It will be the idiocy of the cane toad solution in Australia but focused on eliminating homo sapiens.

We will not be DNA based life forms gradually changing into other social mammals. It will be the end of homo sapiens and probably the end of all social mammals, all being replaced by efficient, powerful not organic, not DNA based machinations.

And once transformed those new entities will not have the neuro-endocrine systems to be able to even know or feel if it was a good idea. But I am sure they will be able to crush concrete blocks and leap tall buildings and learn Japanese in an hour.

Fucking accessorizing our no longer ourselves like when we buy cars.

Dumb short cut self hatred couched as progress.

[Peter Kropotkin]

Transhumanism is a radical anti human philosophy because it seems to want to alter and change human nature entirely whereby doing so we would simply stop being human entirely becoming something much else. You can see this with transhumanism concepts of cyborg augmentation, consciousness transference into computers, and even some of their more delusional writings of wanting to get rid of death itself for immortality.

I am a big critic of advancing technology, automation, and A.I. because most simply do not possess the knowledge of the kinds of horrendous consequences it will have on society going fourth in the long term future. It is clear to me that the more you make people dependent on technology the more they become slaves and this is never really a good thing for people that aspire towards independence. Also, the correlation between technological innovation and social inequality is a huge one.

Then there is the robotization or mechanization of the military, if you think the military police state is horrible enough now just wait until it becomes automated.

K: there are several assumptions in your post... one is the more dependent on technology people
become, the more they become it slaves..... and that people do actually aspire toward
indendence.... that transhumanism is actually anti-human.... I don't believe it is...
human nature is changed by technology regardless if it is implanted inside of us or
the technology of the Iphone or TV's or self-driving cars... each piece of techology changes
human nature... human nature is impacted by the things around it....
and human nature is changed by the ism's and ideologies around it and human nature
is changed by the enviroment around it...... everything impacts human nature....
human nature is not this set thing in the universe that never moves...
we are different and profoundly different then our grandparents because
the technology we live with is different then the technology our grandparents
had... mind you, I am quite a bit older then you.. My Grandparents, who I never
met, were born 1900 or earlier...my mom was born in 1935 and I was born in 1959....
so the technology my grandparents had is substantually different then what your
grandparents had....and that changes everything... Human nature is different because
of the events of the 20th century... the two World Wars and the depression and
the Holocaust and the cold war and 9/11.... events/experiences change who we
are and changes our nature, both individually and collectivly.....human nature
is not set in its ways... it changes and often changes dramatically depending
on the events/experiences ones has....individuall and/or collectivly......

K: several bits, first all, my response you posted was actually to Wendy, not you...


Zero: This robotic or automation revolution that is suppose to sweep over the planet is nothing like the industrial revolution. In the industrial revolution tools and machines changed in technology but the need of human labor was still ever present. A robotic or automation revolution revolving around transhumanism seeks to get rid of human labor altogether which is something very radically different entirely.

K: you are mixing up a couple of different points...the robotic/automation revolution is
already here.. I shall be losing my job in a few years over automation in the grocery business..
but it has nothing to do with transhumanism... just greedy slut owners who are simply
slashing their wrists because if machines have jobs and humans don't, how do the humans
pay for their things? robots can't pay bills or consume products like humans and
profits are gained via humans as consumers and as workers by the theft of wages....
no wages, no jobs, no money/profits... simple as that.... with that said... transhumanism
is something different..... a by product might be, less workers but as I said, that will
work out very badly for everyone involved...

Zero: Your view of human nature is a childish naive one that believes in the original incorruptible position of natural goodness separate from civilization itself. Actual human nature is the complete opposite and it is why liberal politics incidentally is doomed to failure. Your idealism doesn't understand human nature whatsoever. Human nature is a fixed thing in the world whether you accept that or not, how exactly has human nature changed as you would argue?

K: again, you have a couple of points... one seems to be that liberals believe that
MOST people are good and they are... evidence of that is just looking out the window
and seeing people being nice to each other every minute of every day....human nature is
not fixed....as I pointed out, we changed.... every single day... from events to experiences
to rational thought...I have personally changed my political ideals 3 times in my adult life....
and each change was based on event/experiences that changed me and my understanding
of the world....your political viewpoint is tied directly to how you view human beings...
if they are good, chances are, you are a liberal if you see people as being bad or corrupt,
you are most likely a conservative... that is the way it works....Charles Dickens book,
"A Christmas Carol" is based on the entire idea that human nature changes... it just takes
some doing sometimes and I have seen people change, perhaps not that fast, but I have seen
it and so you have you... in fact, you have experienced it... you are different today, then
you were in the past... your basic nature is different as baby and different as a toddler
and different as a child and different as you age....we are not the same at 3 as we are
at 13 and we are different at 23 and 33 and 43 and 53 and 63 and 73.... it is just how it works.......
age and experiences bring about changes in one's nature.... I am not the same person
I was at even 49..... life does that....you change and adapt or you stagnate and rot...
the ability to adapt and change is the fundamental marker of being human....

You of course completely ignore my mentioning of the dangers of artificial intelligence, no surprise there. You also won't even mention a single instance of negative consequences regarding transhumanism as philosophy or ideology.

K: I didn't respond to AI for the simple reason, I don't know how the entire AI revolution
will play out.... I cannot comment on something that hasn't happened yet.... and the same
for transhumanism... I simply don't know how it is going to play out....and thus cannot comment
on it....

Kropotkin

[Peter Kropotkin]

I am different in many ways then people 500 year ago....

Hardly different at all. The same set of emotions, cognition types, physical needs and physiological processes. Transhumans cannot wait to replace all flesh, to modify at a pace evolution never follows AND based on ideas, rather than gradual changes adjusting individuals and the species to the environment. There is a great hatred of the human body in transhumanism. It is seen as flawed even when healthy. This is not hearing aids to replace a damaged organ. This is deciding that the entire thing, including neuronal and endocrine systems, the very cells, should be replaced by nanotech made structures made from materials not currently in bodies. DN'A itself will be eliminated in the name of immortality.

Wearing lipstick and getting those fake, bloated not able to move as well as normal lips - which interferes with the experience of emotions- are not quantitatively different, they are qualitatively different. and that is nothing compared to the changes the transhumanists with their hatred of organic life are after.

The do not like humans. The hatred of human emotions underlying the radical psychotropic dulling of emotions through psychiatric over precription and pathologizing of human reactions to current society - along with not or less pernicious uses of medications like that- is a baby step in the direction transhumanists want to go. And precisely the same kinds of corporate idiocy and hubris will go into the transformation that go into the makeovers of depressed middle aged women on those plastic surgery reality shows.

It will be the idiocy of the cane toad solution in Australia but focused on eliminating homo sapiens.

We will not be DNA based life forms gradually changing into other social mammals. It will be the end of homo sapiens and probably the end of all social mammals, all being replaced by efficient, powerful not organic, not DNA based machinations.

And once transformed those new entities will not have the neuro-endocrine systems to be able to even know or feel if it was a good idea. But I am sure they will be able to crush concrete blocks and leap tall buildings and learn Japanese in an hour.

Fucking accessorizing our no longer ourselves like when we buy cars.

Dumb short cut self hatred couched as progress.

K: I have notice when someone of your ilk has someone that they disagree with,
the other person hates themselves and hate america and hates human beings..
it always hate with you people... hate, hate, hate and then some more hate...don't
you get tired of the hate......

I am different in many ways over someone who lived 500 years ago.....
as I have pointed out, I am healthier and taller and smarter and better
educated then the average person of 500 years ago...my responses to events
is different because the events and experiences I have are vastly different
then someone had 500 years ago.....we have to change and adapt to our changing
conditions of life.... that is the basis of evolution... we change and adapt to the
ever changing enviroment..... here it doesn't necessarily mean are bodies are
changing and adapting.. although that is true also....check out the human
changes that has happened since the change in diet that we have had since
the modern age began...People in Japan for example, since their diet has been
to a point modernize, they have grown taller and heavier.....we are far more likely
to have such diet issues as gout and diabetes because of our diet over 500 years ago,
where they were far more likely to suffer from malnutrtion and actual starvation....

do we still hate and love and have anger issues, of course.... but for example read
poetry from 500 years ago and see how they view love... it is quite different then
the way we view it today....look at the values they valued for example, chivalry...
they highly valued chivalry... we don't.... our basic values system is different
from 500 years ago...the times, events, experiences, institutions in use help, in part,
to create the idea of human nature and what is human nature at that point in time....

my basic human nature is different today then it was when I was a child...
it changed.. it is not the same and that is true of you too and everyone...

Kropotkin

[Karpel Tunnel]

“My kids understand what I’m doing. They’re totally saturated in it. My daughter, she’s eleven. A little while ago, she said to me, ‘Dad, I don’t care if you become a robot, but you have to keep your face. I don’t want you to replace your face.’ Personally, I don’t have any sentimental attachment to my face, any more than I have a sentimental attachment to any other part of my body. I could look like the Mars Rover for all I give a shit. But she’s pretty attached to my face, I guess.”
― Tim Cannon

One wonders if he is still human enough to have any sentimental attachment to his daughter's face. In any case, when this kind of insect consciousness homonid gets uploaded into his incredibly powerful body and has a mind enhanced by AIs, he sure as shit is not going to have any sentimental attachment to our inefficient mammalian bodies and our social mamman minds and ways of relating. And we will not be strong enough to stop his kinds effectivizing of all that wasted meat. They are the ultimate life haters, prolonging themselves.

[WendyDarling]

I agree. How do we join forces and stop their madness?

[Karpel Tunnel]

I agree. How do we join forces and stop their madness?

I don't think it is inevitable. If we look at some of the everyday atrocities of plastic surgery, which a significant minority notices, I think we can imagine that when some of the coming alterations, which will be more total, start happening the issues will be debated and more questioning will take place. But the only how I can think of is to keep reacting. I think more people notice immobile puffy, no longer quite human lips and say nothing, even to close friends - out of guilt, out of thinking 'hey it's doctors doing it so who am I..., to pressure of cultural norms, to not trusting their intuition that it is like cutting or self-harm. So all we can do is respond, not allowing those factors to stop us.

[Peter Kropotkin]

“My kids understand what I’m doing. They’re totally saturated in it. My daughter, she’s eleven. A little while ago, she said to me, ‘Dad, I don’t care if you become a robot, but you have to keep your face. I don’t want you to replace your face.’ Personally, I don’t have any sentimental attachment to my face, any more than I have a sentimental attachment to any other part of my body. I could look like the Mars Rover for all I give a shit. But she’s pretty attached to my face, I guess.”
― Tim Cannon

One wonders if he is still human enough to have any sentimental attachment to his daughter's face. In any case, when this kind of insect consciousness homonid gets uploaded into his incredibly powerful body and has a mind enhanced by AIs, he sure as shit is not going to have any sentimental attachment to our inefficient mammalian bodies and our social mamman minds and ways of relating. And we will not be strong enough to stop his kinds effectivizing of all that wasted meat. They are the ultimate life haters, prolonging themselves.

K: and once again, missing the point.....they aren't "life haters"... on the contraire...
they want what people seem to want ( I don't, but hay, I'm weird) People
want eternal life... see religions which promise eternal life at the side of god
or in the bowels of hell and one none religious method of achieving the goal
of eternal life is via technology....they don't hate life if they want to prolong
life forever.....I had to look up this Tim Cannon... and he has tech that is not
really any different then a tatoo and that is really the point here.....

we are just at the begining of this use of technology and we don't know
where exactly it is going to go...to panic or to have the fear that
Wendy and Karpel have about this is rather premature....and as the
article in Wiki said at this point, the type of placement of this sort
of technology is against the law and medical types won't engage in this
type of body enhancement in the U.S for fear of losing their license....
so I won't engage in the fear mongering that that wendy and karpel seem
to enjoy........

Kropotkin

[WendyDarling]

Tim doesn't wish to have any part of his body remain human, Peter, he stated that in his quote. It's not the technology that is the problem, it's the dumb fucking people who can't understand the difference between being a robot and being a human being, the morons who don't see that kind of radical transformation as a problem for human survival. You don't see the psychosis in becoming a robot as a problem do you Peter?

[WendyDarling]

I agree. How do we join forces and stop their madness?

I don't think it is inevitable. If we look at some of the everyday atrocities of plastic surgery, which a significant minority notices, I think we can imagine that when some of the coming alterations, which will be more total, start happening the issues will be debated and more questioning will take place. But the only how I can think of is to keep reacting. I think more people notice immobile puffy, no longer quite human lips and say nothing, even to close friends - out of guilt, out of thinking 'hey it's doctors doing it so who am I..., to pressure of cultural norms, to not trusting their intuition that it is like cutting or self-harm. So all we can do is respond, not allowing those factors to stop us.

Is there already an official movement against transhumanism? I just Googled anti transhumanism and anti transhumanist groups and only three articles against transhumanism popped up in eleven pages of one search. Two of the three were discussing a recent release of The Anti-Transhumanist Manifesto http://privacysurgeon.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Human-manifesto_26_short-1.pdf

[Karpel Tunnel]

Is there already an official movement against transhumanism? I just Googled anti transhumanism and anti transhumanist groups and only three articles against transhumanism popped up in eleven pages of one search. Two of the three were discussing a recent release of The Anti-Transhumanist Manifesto http://privacysurgeon.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Human-manifesto_26_short-1.pdf

Thanks for the link! I think the counter-movement is more piecemeal. Like negative reactions to specific transhumanisms - gene modification, implants, whatever. Even the word transhumanism is not known by most people so it is hard to be in the counter movement. And of course there are gray areas where a technology is actually helping a problem - fixing hairlips is one thing, turning women into these hard-faced dolls another. I use plastic surgery as an example since it is now normal. It need not be transhumanism, but there are aspect of it that are first stages. Just as the modern, completely accepted, addiction to cellphone use is an early stage of transhumanism. One can have a cellphone and not be addicted. But many people - it is like smoking was in the 40s-60s - are radically addicted, but since it is a norm, they do not even realize it. And they are, to some degree dehumanized, like any full time addiction will do.

Anyway I am not sure how to raise awareness that there is an underlying pattern that could be called transhumanism, give people a sense of the common threads, so they recognize the coming variety of forms of it.

[Peter Kropotkin]

Tim doesn't wish to have any part of his body remain human, Peter, he stated that in his quote. It's not the technology that is the problem, it's the dumb fucking people who can't understand the difference between being a robot and being a human being, the morons who don't see that kind of radical transformation as a problem for human survival. You don't see the psychosis in becoming a robot as a problem do you Peter?

K: they are trying to extend human survival via technology......

ok, try this, what does it mean to be human?

simple enough...what does it mean to be a human being?

Kropotkin