Petition to ban Sculptor

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Moderator: Carleas

Should Sculptor be banned from this forum?

Yes
20
65%
No
11
35%
I don't know
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 31

Re: Petition to ban Sculptor

Postby Sculptor » Wed Nov 03, 2021 5:26 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:Asides aside, what is the consensus here? And does it matter?


I will attempt to summarize it:

The guy's a scumbag, nobody wants him around, but we all prefer we don't employ fascist tactics on account of this reality.

We want the slow-chewer to stay. And we will hold Carleas to this standard. If our resident mental handicap is ever evicted, shit will happen.


If insults were grounds for banning, then you are as guilty as anyone.
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Re: Petition to ban Sculptor

Postby Motor Daddy » Wed Nov 03, 2021 6:07 pm

Sculptor wrote:What did you expect?


I expected a science website to look at the facts, and not treat their science as a religion. It turns out that science sites are not concerned with the facts, they would rather worship their religion.

I expected intellectual honesty from a science site, and I found a bunch of corrupt douchebags.
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Re: Petition to ban Sculptor

Postby Meno_ » Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:16 pm

iambiguous wrote:
Meno_ wrote:As soon as we find out whew your place is


Actually, not even I know whew my place is, Mr. Sokal. 8)





Should't there be a comma between even and i?
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Re: Petition to ban Sculptor

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:34 pm

Sculptor wrote:If insults were grounds for banning, then you are as guilty as anyone.


Shut up faggot.
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Re: Petition to ban Sculptor

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:39 pm

Magnus Anderson wrote:It is fine for the government to ban abortion everywhere in the country but it is not fine for an owner of a small, barely visible, forum to temporarily (if not permanently) ban a member that is disrespectful toward other members. The former is love and compassion, the latter is dictatorship and fascism. You want women to go through unwanted pregnancy in order to give birth to a baby that nobody wants and that will most likely suffer in life but you don't want to temporarily ban a verbally abusive person on a forum that is known to no more than 50 people in the world -- all because that's a horrible, leftist, thing to do.


What about murdering Scultpor? I am sure he is as disliked in life as he is in this forum, and probably an active nuisance to many. Does that make him an unwanted life that nobody wants? Should the murder ban be lifted?

Banning people has made this website mediocre when it could have been great. They banned a bunch of people to protect the feelings of oversensitive university students with Hitler complexes, so that it all became a simulacrum rather than a conversation.

It's not because it's a nasty leftist thing to do, though it clearly is, but because it strongly degrades the quality of the site.
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Re: Petition to ban Sculptor

Postby Magnus Anderson » Wed Nov 03, 2021 9:42 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:What about murdering Scultpor? I am sure he is as disliked in life as he is in this forum, and probably an active nuisance to many. Does that make him an unwanted life that nobody wants? Should the murder ban be lifted?


Well, his mother probably loves him, so there's at least one person in the world who would object to him being put to death. There's also an entire army of people who think that noone should be killed -- not even murderers. They too would object. But none of them have enough power to do anything about it. So who does? The government does. And they won't allow it I guess because they love Sculptor. And they love him because he's useful to them.

Whether or not we should allow people to kill Sculptor doesn't seem to have much to do with the subject of this thread which is "Should we, or should we not, ban Sculptor from this forum?" I certainly don't see a need to kill him, if that's what you're asking me; and not only that, but if a car was about to hit him and send him to hell, I'd do whatever I can to prevent it. I don't know how to say this but I don't hate the guy. I just think he's making certain things -- dialogues, for example -- more difficult than it's necessary. I don't even think he should be permanently banned. I merely think that this forum should send him a message that his behavior is unwelcome and that he won't be allowed to post here unless he changes. And of course, that law should be applied equally to everyone, not just him.

Banning people has made this website mediocre when it could have been great. They banned a bunch of people to protect the feelings of oversensitive university students with Hitler complexes, so that it all became a simulacrum rather than a conversation.


When was the last time someone was banned on this forum? This is literally the only philosophy forum on the Internet that I am aware of where you can freely insult other people all you want. Try it on The Philosophy Forum and see what happens. The moderators of this forum really only ban people when they take it too far -- and by that I mean really too far.

The reason you have to control forum activity (which involves banning people) is because if you don't the entire forum quickly turns into a reality show where the goal is to prove that you're better than everyone else. It all becomes about social status (as imaginary as it is.)

See this thread, for example. See how Pyotr Kropotkin is doing nothing but personally attacking the person who started the thread?

It's not because it's a nasty leftist thing to do, though it clearly is, but because it strongly degrades the quality of the site.


Fifteen years ago it was common sense that lack of moderation degrades forum discussions. What's taking place right now is no doubt some sort of political backlash.
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Re: Petition to ban Sculptor

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Wed Nov 03, 2021 9:55 pm

Magnus Anderson wrote:and not only that, but if a car was about to hit him and send him to hell, I'd do whatever I can to prevent it.


Ah. So a life is more important than whether that life is a nuisance or wanted by anyone in particular.
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Re: Petition to ban Sculptor

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:00 pm

Magnus Anderson wrote:See this thread, for example. See how Pyotr Kropotkin is doing nothing but personally attacking the person who started the thread?


You will notice that that kind of trolling survived the ancient waves of bans without a problem.
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Re: Petition to ban Sculptor

Postby Meno_ » Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:24 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:
Magnus Anderson wrote:See this thread, for example. See how Pyotr Kropotkin is doing nothing but personally attacking the person who started the thread?


You will notice that that kind of trolling survived the ancient waves of bans without a problem.



Yes, but that appears as less functional and more 'objective' since it's less regarded as a less prejoritive opinion

I mean by that, attacking a forum slides by associating it with the author , inasmuch as it is more of a more general statement therefore less formative toward the specific author, even if that writer is mentioned in the attack.
The genre relieves the pressure of responsibility as to what is expressed . Even impressionable navies may be relieved to find their heavy handed. tolerance toward what's written be somewhat amalgemated.


In addition and an afterthought, I changed my vote in conjunction to the aforementioned.
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Re: Petition to ban Sculptor

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:28 pm

What you get when you start banning people, and what you did get back when they did it, is a milquetoast environment where nothing of any transcendence is said.

A safe space.

What you have today is people on the right wing, who are not made uncomfortable by a hostile environment, putting out a lot of substance and considered posts, and a bunch of leftists losing their shit and posting personal attacks of different degrees of sidewaysness. This is because leftists are used to a repressive environment where they are coddled and protected and they never learn the distinction between an attack on your person and an attack on your argument. So they are freaking out, their brains shutting down.

If nothing else, Carleas has created the only place that I know about in this day of heavy censorship where left and right can go at eachother and interact, without one side being protected from the other.
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Re: Petition to ban Sculptor

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:34 pm

And regarding you specifically, Magnus, because I know you as the only poster I know who legitimately does stick to the civil discourse code and enjoys only talking about the subject at hand, I would say maybe spend less time responding to trolls and more to people addressing the subject you are addressing. Threads with you invariably go: you say something, obsrvr says something, I say something, you say something back, a troll walks in, you say something to the troll, the troll keeps trolling, me and obsrvr go unaddressed, the conversation fizzles out.

Just ignore the sons of bitches. People need to stop being made to feel so uncomfortable by the existence of nuisances. They will be there, always, at any level, in any place. Just stick to what matters to you, and if you do, the like minded will join you (like-minded in terms of enjoying discussions about things, not agreeing about those things).

Right wingers don't have that problem, because we are perfectly comfortable insulting trolls and carrying on a high level intellectual discussion simultaneously. That's what throws the sons of bitches off.
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Re: Petition to ban Sculptor

Postby Magnus Anderson » Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:17 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:What you get when you start banning people, and what you did get back when they did it, is a milquetoast environment where nothing of any transcendence is said.

A safe space.


Every goal that you posit for yourself requires that you adopt the right set of laws (= restrictions) in order to succeed at it.

Suppose that I want to create an Internet place with the sole purpose to host exchanges on a number of topics that are of interest to me. And suppose that I want to do so because I want to connect with people from the other side of the planet. And what I mean by "connect" is I want to understand what they believe and why they believe it. The question that you have to answer for me is why would I want to host exchanges that are not only failing to help me attain my goal but are actually making it difficult for me to do so? Why would I want to host bitter exchanges? What do I gain from that? Remember that this is my own personal not-for-profit project. Since I'm the one paying the costs of running my forum, I better get some value out of it. Why should I host reality shows? Do I look like a lady in her 80's to you who has nothing better to do with her time but to enjoy pointless ego contests?

You have this strange idea that I'm a fascist dictator for restricting what people are doing on my own territory. And you call yourself freedom lover. You think that it's fine for the government to ban abortion everywhere in the country but that it's not fine for me to exercise control over my own tiny little, almost completely invisible, portion of Internet space? How is that freedom loving? Just listen to yourself. I am supposed to allow everyone to do whatever they want on my own territory and that totally doesn't turn me into a meek, timid, person -- so as long as I defend myself by yelling at those people, I suppose. But running a civilized, high-quality, philosophy forum totally disempowers everyone and turns them into obedient subjects afraid to speak their minds. People are really only afraid of moderators and their powerful software that allows them to ban whoever they want. Loud, noisy, verbally abusive people, on the other hand, do not breed fear at all.
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Re: Petition to ban Sculptor

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:20 pm

Granted, I am speaking from the point of view of posters, and not of the owner.

Why Carleas does this, I don't know. But I am grateful to him, because free spaces like this just don't exist.

I also don't expect it to last forever. He will one day either sell or start modding again.

For now, though, he is a hero.
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Re: Petition to ban Sculptor

Postby Magnus Anderson » Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:45 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:[w]we are perfectly comfortable insulting trolls and carrying on a high level intellectual discussion simultaneously


That's not taking place at all. Instead, all of you get significantly distracted. You are at best blind to it. But blindness isn't a virtue. And a problem that isn't perceived is not a problem that doesn't exist.

You insist on looking at this issue through the lens of feelings. "If someone objects to something, it's because it hurts their feelings. The solution is simple: get used to it, stop being offended by things." Take that too far and you end up preaching passivity.

And regarding you specifically, Magnus, because I know you as the only poster I know who legitimately does stick to the civil discourse code and enjoys only talking about the subject at hand, I would say maybe spend less time responding to trolls and more to people addressing the subject you are addressing. Threads with you invariably go: you say something, obsrvr says something, I say something, you say something back, a troll walks in, you say something to the troll, the troll keeps trolling, me and obsrvr go unaddressed, the conversation fizzles out.


It appears to me that I am literally the only person in this thread who answered the question posed in the OP. Everyone else got distracted. And yet, you think that I should spend more time learning how to ignore "trolls" instead of doing what I'm doing in this thread?
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Re: Petition to ban Sculptor

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Thu Nov 04, 2021 1:01 am

I'm just saying, you're a smart guy, and I enjoy discussing things with you (sometimes).

Yes, I think you should ignore them. Trolls won't go away, even with the strictest moderation. They will adapt. Meanwhile, the opinions of the mods will get intentionally or unintentionally imprinted on what gets to be said.

I insult trolls, but I also keep responding to people having a serious discussion. You don't do that. You let them get to you and stop talking about the thing at all.

Never undeappreciate the value of someone willing to make their dislike of you explicit. Nothing more insidious than a guy like iambiguous/kropotin, who is 100% mod proof. They will never get banned, ever, no matter what the mod policy is. So what? Are they blocking your keyboard, preventing you from talking about what you want to talk about?

In the last month or so, I have covered extensive ground on topics that interest me deeply. Possibly I am the only one rewarded by it, but on the other hand I am the only one I am interested in rewarding. Eventually I get to a place where the person I'm talking to has the "does not compute, switch to troll mode" moment and I move on. And I don't get cowed because I actually like a bit of a fight. I won't get stuck for months going at it with someone like iambiguous/kropotkin, but every now and then it's fun to invest some time into the old scratching post. Nothing wrong with it. When you are discussing politics, specially, feelings will get involved and insults will be forthcoming. That is just the way it is. I can't tell you I want to force you to live a life you are against for any reason and expect you to be calm about it. There are enemies in politics and that is life.

Plus, it's healthy to learn to have someone insult you and not let it get to your head. For that reason alone, Sculptor is of value. Ierrellus had a beautiful thread on evolution, and he literally had it shut down because he couldn't deal with Sculptor being a spastic mouth-foamer.

How much would we all have gained if he had pressed the ignore button and continued with his observations and musings? Does he think the world won't be full of Sculptors, that questioning evolutionary theory dogma won't get you trolled wherever you go? Sculptor is not unique to this website. That is how people are "out there." So what? If Carleas won't ban him, he won't ban you either.
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Re: Petition to ban Sculptor

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Thu Nov 04, 2021 1:15 am

Didn't you use to openly call yourself a national socialist? Even I would ban you for that. But Carleas didn't.
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Re: Petition to ban Sculptor

Postby gib » Thu Nov 04, 2021 5:47 am

iambiguous wrote:What man that every woman wants and every other man wants to be doesn't?


Well, there's me obviously.

iambiguous wrote:Not only that but he has his own collection of political prejudices.


^ Uh-oh, you mentioned "political prejudices". I'm out!

(You see how this has absolutely nothing to do with smears owning a motorbike or being a chick magnet?)

Motor Daddy wrote:I was banned for staying on topic and stating FACTS about how Einstein's second postulate is bunk. That's right, for continuously giving reasons why relativity is trash on a science forum. The mods would delete my posts and ban me because they couldn't stand to hear the truth that I posted. I was banned for stating there is absolute time, and giving reasons WHY.

I was banned from an automotive forum for revealing a liar. They chose to ban me to protect their buddy's reputation.

Trumped up charges to get rid of the "trouble maker."


Hmm, stating that Einstein's second postulate is bunk on a science forum... gee, I wonder how that's gonna go down.

I was expecting a few links to your posts or at least copy and paste them here. How is anybody supposed to know you're stating FACTS? Facts that Einstein was wrong, facts that every scientist in the world denies. How are we supposed to know what "staying on topic" means? Is that actually the reason they gave? I mean, maybe you're right but you see how expecting people to believe that is a really tall order. And FACTS in a scientific context are not just your opinions backed up by reason--even immaculate air-tight reason--that's just the first step--you also need empirical evidence. Did you gather empirical evidence? Did you conduct experiments, repeatedly, under different conditions and different circumstances? That's what the scientific revolution was all about--we learned (or some of us did) that coming to conclusions based on reason alone is not enough to say we know--that's dark age thinking--we also have to test our conclusions in the real world.

But I'll grant that that's not enough to get you banned. You also have to violate one or more forum rules, and on a science forum, I'll bet there's a least a few that state you cannot continually make unscientific claims (hint, it's a science forum). The mods have to install a few rules like that just to keep the forum about, you know, science.

So if you have links to your posts, or you want to copy/paste here, be my guest. It would also help if you pasted the reasons the mods gave (if they did) for banning you. I highly doubt they banned you for "stating there is absolute time and giving reasons" or "staying on topic". Mod: "If we find anyone staying on topic, they will be banned. We want our members to veer all over the place with respect to the topic the thread is about."

Magnus Anderson wrote:People on the right also want to ban things (e.g. abortion, homosexuality, etc.)...


Do they ban them or just wish they were banned (there is a difference). Most leftists that I've seen think banning a person for saying the wrong thing is the right way to deal with them. I see very few rightists espousing that. Most rightists treat that as a last resort (the whole I don't agree with you but you have a right to say it thing). I may wish you didn't say it but I know better than to act on that wish.

Magnus Anderson wrote:When was the last time you let other people talk to you whenever they want, however they want and as long as they want?


Are we talking about people being offensive? Yeah, I would stand up for myself if they're offending me but that's not the same as banning the person. And a person yelling at me while I sleep is not an example for free speech, it's him violating my rights.

Magnus Anderson wrote:What matters is what you want to ban, to what extent you want to ban it and why you want to ban it. And in the case of Sculptor, the reason I think he should be banned is because he's disrespectful towards other members.


Well, if you're saying he's violating certain forum rules, then I'll back you up 100%. But be careful. We've probably all violated forum rules at one point or another.

Motor Daddy wrote:It turns out that science sites are not concerned with the facts...


Ok, just stop for a minute. Read that back to yourself and see how it sounds. Science sites are not concerned with facts??? That's like saying Christians are not concerned with God. Is this really true or is this just you being a bitch?
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Re: Petition to ban Sculptor

Postby Meno_ » Thu Nov 04, 2021 3:55 pm

The basic question is one with ambiguity. Is that void, that nihilistic void created between the questionable difference between the will to power, to repeatedly empower the chouce, and the power to will, the very void, rather then that of considering the void It's self.as a substance to consider'

Or, do I choose my own nihilistic fall, or am I fated, is that equally an inseparabiliry?


Can I choose it am I fated? Can science determine the outcome premising a transformation of an eidectic limit?


And must I if such gap exist either minimize or maximize a relational hero or victomhood?

Creating the archytypes that empower or limit me?

Am I to be banned and exalted simolteniouslt?

Or, there really is no difference, appreciable or otherwise.


The void is fallacious !
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Re: Petition to ban Sculptor

Postby Meno_ » Thu Nov 04, 2021 4:09 pm

The difference: between fallacious and ambigous
Is that the ambiguous defenitively eats it'self, it's very existential falicity out of it's self,, that is primal and indefinite!


&the ambiguous trying to eat the fallacious can not swallow it, and has to expectorate it, leaving a bitter taste, causing a nausea, from which no exit reaffirms a nihilistic sickness unto death.

Enigmatic but uncontravincable.


Therefore a troll can not get out of his boc, and because of that he is determined to stay there.

He is inconsequanceable.
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Re: Petition to ban Sculptor

Postby Arcturus Descending » Thu Nov 04, 2021 4:45 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:
Sculptor wrote:If insults were grounds for banning, then you are as guilty as anyone.


Shut up faggot.


That is a really, really ugly word!!!!


November 3rd, 202l 5:34PM you wrote:

Just ignore the sons of bitches. People need to stop being made to feel so uncomfortable by the existence of nuisances. They will be there, always, at any level, in any place. Just stick to what matters to you, and if you do, the like minded will join you (like-minded in terms of enjoying discussions about things, not agreeing about those things).


What happened to your resolve? :-s

I think that sometimes we all need to pay close attention to the things which we say and write so that they will have more value and meaning and not just be will-o'-the-wisps.
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Re: Petition to ban Sculptor

Postby Magnus Anderson » Thu Nov 04, 2021 5:36 pm

Gib wrote:How is anybody supposed to know you're stating FACTS? Facts that Einstein was wrong, facts that every scientist in the world denies.


If you believe something sufficiently strongly, you will normally believe that your beliefs are facts. That's a given. I believe it's a fact that philosophy forums should have stricter moderation than ILP. But stating that your beliefs are facts is a bit cocky, and the more you state it, the cockier it becomes. Personally, I think that philosophy forums (and discussion forums in general) should have a negative stance towards cocky behavior of any kind.

And FACTS in a scientific context are not just your opinions backed up by reason--even immaculate air-tight reason--that's just the first step--you also need empirical evidence. Did you gather empirical evidence? Did you conduct experiments, repeatedly, under different conditions and different circumstances? That's what the scientific revolution was all about--we learned (or some of us did) that coming to conclusions based on reason alone is not enough to say we know--that's dark age thinking--we also have to test our conclusions in the real world.


Some questions can be answered using reason alone e.g. 2 + 2 = 4.

But I'll grant that that's not enough to get you banned. You also have to violate one or more forum rules, and on a science forum, I'll bet there's a least a few that state you cannot continually make unscientific claims (hint, it's a science forum). The mods have to install a few rules like that just to keep the forum about, you know, science.


Who gets to decide what's scientific and what's unscientific? The scientific establishment, right? So you're perfectly fine with science forums banning people who make claims that are not endorsed by the scientific establishment (e.g. Earth is flat) but you're not fine with ILP banning Sculptor because he's disrespectful?

Do they ban them or just wish they were banned (there is a difference).


They are not in charge, so they can't ban anyone. But if they were in charge, they would do so, and they don't make it a secret (they openly, unambiguously and repeatedly state it.)

If you're like Pedro, and you don't think there are conservatives who want to ban things such as homosexuality and prostitution on a national level, we can just stick to things such as abortion and promotion of values such as homosexuality, prostitution, pornography, etc. You don't deny that even American conservatives want to make these things illegal, right?

Most leftists that I've seen think banning a person for saying the wrong thing is the right way to deal with them.


I've seen that too. What was the name of that Google employee who lost his job because his ideas (which they asked for and which he presented in a respectful manner) made everyone afraid and less willing to speak? Notice that he wasn't banned because he was personally attacking his fellow employees but because he said something that made everyone uncomfortable. And I understand that sensitive people need that sort of protection in order to be able to learn how to deal with it. But that's not what I'm asking for here. In fact, I think that people who are too osensitive people should actually have a restricted access -- for their own good.

Are we talking about people being offensive? Yeah, I would stand up for myself if they're offending me but that's not the same as banning the person.


The end goal is the same. You want him to stop doing what he's doing. When people start yelling at each other it's because they are trying to shut each other up. Technically, it's the same. You want to ban him. You just want to ban him by yelling at him instead of using a piece of software known as phpbb. You think it's cooler, but it's actually not, given how ineffecient it is.

And a person yelling at me while I sleep is not an example for free speech, it's him violating my rights.


It's an example of taking the concept of free speech a bit too far. It's a reminder that free speech isn't completely free speech but speech that is free within certain boundaries. But exactly what boundaries? That's the crux of the matter.

Well, if you're saying he's violating certain forum rules, then I'll back you up 100%. But be careful. We've probably all violated forum rules at one point or another.


And? He gets a pass because we all violated forum rules at one point or another?
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Re: Petition to ban Sculptor

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Thu Nov 04, 2021 5:47 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:What happened to your resolve?


The advice wasn't meant for me. I just insult the faggots.

But for someone like Magnus, who will lose interest in the thing if someone trolls him, it is much better to ignore.

There are others like him, honest intellectuals who are passionate about philosophy but can't tolerate dishonest intentions, like Ierrellus or phyllo, of course nobody's perfect, and I think we would all gain much if they would forget the trolls and post on. Trolls are part of life. No amount of modding will remove them.
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Re: Petition to ban Sculptor

Postby Motor Daddy » Thu Nov 04, 2021 5:58 pm

Magnus Anderson wrote:
Gib wrote:How is anybody supposed to know you're stating FACTS? Facts that Einstein was wrong, facts that every scientist in the world denies.

Some questions can be answered using reason alone e.g. 2 + 2 = 4.


That's the bottom line, some facts are absolute facts.

If I define the length of the path that light travels in a vacuum in one second, to be the definition of the unit of measure of distance the "DLTIOS" then the speed of light is 1 DLTIOS per Second. That is a rock solid fact. It can not be refuted, because by definition it is absolutely correct, just like 2 + 2 = 4 is a fact, by definition.

The bottom line is that my MD's Box is an absolute fact! It refutes Einstein's BS about light taking .5 seconds to reach the Z receiver in that frame of reference. MD's Box can't be refuted, because it is a fact, BY DEFINITION! The science community chooses to ignore the facts, and ban me instead. That makes them corrupt losers, that aren't interested in the facts, but instead would rather worship their RELIGION, which is Einstein's BS!!

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Last edited by Motor Daddy on Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Petition to ban Sculptor

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:08 pm

For all we know, we are saving Sculptor's life by letting him post whatever garbled thing enters his malformed mind here.

You don't know what his life is like. We can all probably accurately guess it's not happy, happy people don't behave like he does. So we can't take a small hit to keep the poor bastard alive? Our sense of injured pride is more important than Sculptor's life?
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Re: Petition to ban Sculptor

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:11 pm

A man's life?
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