An apology from Peter Kropotkin

A forum about the forums

Moderator: Carleas

An apology from Peter Kropotkin

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:34 pm

Carleas, I noticed Mowk's thread and not 12 hours later I find Peter Kropotkin saying

the right, in pedro, UR, obser, and Karpel have all used radical language
to attack the left... they have called for martial law, prison, dictatorship
and in some cases, death to those on the left


I have never called for those measures in relation to the Left (or the Right). So, I would ask him for an apology and for you to give him a warning if he can't make one or at least a retraction.

He also says
.whereas we on the left, the so called
"communist" which in fact, neither IAM or I, is a communist.. but those sort of
distinctions are ignored by these posters..

when in fact I have reacted extremely harshly to people calling me a communist. And I have never called either Iamb or Peter a communist and I am quite aware of the distinctions. In fact I tend to come from the anarchist Left, and while PK is under no obligation to know anything about me I am not sure how he missed a wealth of posts on my part criticial of corporations, fiat banking, or arguing that we live in an oligarchy, that corporations have completely undermined democracy and more. In fact I take a certain pleasure in implicitly jibing some of the people on that list by referring to the corporations as the first globalists. (not exactly true, the empires were, but in the modern era I think it holds nicely) I also know from his discussions with Phyllo that Iamb is not a communist and I would have guessed PK, since he refers to a past where he was a communist as somewhere now in the ranks of the liberals, perhaps something equivalent to what in Europe is a social democrat. Though I have no idea how he classes himself now.

Possibly he is confused since I am critical of many liberal policies, but you know the old anarchist left always was, and yes, sometimes I find common ground with people on the Right, especially if they see systematic problems and are themselves also critical of the republicans. I tend to be quite critical of arguments that present the system as working fairly well-

In any case Carleas, if Peter can't manage to apologize here how about a warning or something. My experience of PK is that he does not read posts well, and actually that bothers me more, but hey, they had to get Al Capone on tax evasion.

So, how about a warning if there is no apology or retraction. It's an administrative gesture. It's a bit like challenging someone for a debate. To make it public and hard to avoid.

Jeez, I don't my wife and some of my dearest friends and myself being sent to prison. And the funny thing is, since I am calling in an authority figure to moderate PK's terrible reading habits, I will probably be called a communist again.

The irony is that PK is doing what he is complaining about - not in the measures, but in the problematic labeling.
Karpel Tunnel
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3625
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:26 pm

Re: An apology from Peter Kropotkin

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:09 am

Karpel Tunnel wrote:Carleas, I noticed Mowk's thread and not 12 hours later I find Peter Kropotkin saying

the right, in pedro, UR, obser, and Karpel have all used radical language
to attack the left... they have called for martial law, prison, dictatorship
and in some cases, death to those on the left


I have never called for those measures in relation to the Left (or the Right). So, I would ask him for an apology and for you to give him a warning if he can't make one or at least a retraction.

He also says
.whereas we on the left, the so called
"communist" which in fact, neither IAM or I, is a communist.. but those sort of
distinctions are ignored by these posters..

when in fact I have reacted extremely harshly to people calling me a communist. And I have never called either Iamb or Peter a communist and I am quite aware of the distinctions. In fact I tend to come from the anarchist Left, and while PK is under no obligation to know anything about me I am not sure how he missed a wealth of posts on my part criticial of corporations, fiat banking, or arguing that we live in an oligarchy, that corporations have completely undermined democracy and more. In fact I take a certain pleasure in implicitly jibing some of the people on that list by referring to the corporations as the first globalists. (not exactly true, the empires were, but in the modern era I think it holds nicely) I also know from his discussions with Phyllo that Iamb is not a communist and I would have guessed PK, since he refers to a past where he was a communist as somewhere now in the ranks of the liberals, perhaps something equivalent to what in Europe is a social democrat. Though I have no idea how he classes himself now.

Possibly he is confused since I am critical of many liberal policies, but you know the old anarchist left always was, and yes, sometimes I find common ground with people on the Right, especially if they see systematic problems and are themselves also critical of the republicans. I tend to be quite critical of arguments that present the system as working fairly well-

In any case Carleas, if Peter can't manage to apologize here how about a warning or something. My experience of PK is that he does not read posts well, and actually that bothers me more, but hey, they had to get Al Capone on tax evasion.

So, how about a warning if there is no apology or retraction. It's an administrative gesture. It's a bit like challenging someone for a debate. To make it public and hard to avoid.

Jeez, I don't my wife and some of my dearest friends and myself being sent to prison. And the funny thing is, since I am calling in an authority figure to moderate PK's terrible reading habits, I will probably be called a communist again.

The irony is that PK is doing what he is complaining about - not in the measures, but in the problematic labeling.


K: personally, I find this a very interesting way to go about getting an apology....
you didn't ask me for an apology, you ask Carleas to get me to apologize...
at no point, did you really address me!

your entire post was directed to Carleas..... I am not sure what to make of that.....

if you are so interested in an apology, why not just ask me directly?

in any case, OK, tell you what... I am sorry to put you in the same category I put
the "kids" in.....you haven't threatened me in any way, shape or form......
you haven't threaten to put me in prison nor have you threaten me with
death or to put the country into Martial law.......I am also very sorry for my
"terrible reading habits".... Is there any other character flaw I should apologize
for? I am sure I am the worst human being ever to live.. I know.. I have gotten
that from others.. I suppose I should be apologizing for my very presence on
planet earth and so I now do so, I am very sorry to be alive..... is this enough
or do I need to go on and apologize some more?

next time.. just ask me....that is the grown up thing to do....
be an adult.... don't go to carleas or IAM or anybody else.....
come to me and talk to me, person to person... it goes farther then
trying to get an second person involved to get an apology....

now that is done, are you going to come out and find some middle ground
or am I going to have to apologize some more?

Kropotkin
PK IS EVIL.....
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 9639
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: An apology from Peter Kropotkin

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:45 am

Peter Kropotkin wrote:K: personally, I find this a very interesting way to go about getting an apology....
you didn't ask me for an apology, you ask Carleas to get me to apologize...
at no point, did you really address me!
Well, I did, in the thread where you accused me.
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 8#p2791077
Though I did do this first. So, sure, next time I'll come to you.

in any case, OK, tell you what... I am sorry to put you in the same category I put
the "kids" in.....you haven't threatened me in any way, shape or form......
you haven't threaten to put me in prison nor have you threaten me with
death or to put the country into Martial law.......

If you'd stopped here, it's a real apology.

I am also very sorry for my
"terrible reading habits".... Is there any other character flaw I should apologize
for? I am sure I am the worst human being ever to live.. I know.. I have gotten
that from others.. I suppose I should be apologizing for my very presence on
planet earth and so I now do so, I am very sorry to be alive..... is this enough
or do I need to go on and apologize some more?
Where is this all coming from?

next time.. just ask me....that is the grown up thing to do....
be an adult....
My experience has been that you don't take responsibility. I have found a number of your responses disingenuous. But I'll come to you in the future. See how that goes.

don't go to carleas or IAM or anybody else.....
come to me and talk to me, person to person... it goes farther then
trying to get an second person involved to get an apology....
Filling an apology with sarcasm and apologizing for things that you don't believe you should apologize for, undermines whatever real acknowledgment there might have been in the part that makes sense. IOW it is not clear to me you are an adult.

now that is done, are you going to come out and find some middle ground
Are you? And on what issue? I made one suggestion regarding the thread on Admission of Guilt. You could head for the middle ground of 'it isn't clear whether it is an admission of guilt' after reading my posts. As I point out in the other thread, I am not on the Right. So we have to get specific about an issue to get middle ground on. What work do you think you need to do to reach middle ground with others or with me. If not the Admission of guilt thread (where compromise could be shown by stepping back from the condescending title of the thread and from the incorrect case closed posting on your part
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 5#p2790158
or you could post in
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 9#p2787348
We're pretty much guaranteed to have common ground on the latter. I was trying to nuance capitalism, since any criticism of any facet of capitalism seemed to earn me the label of communist, I thought I would see what their version of capitalism was, since pretty much every capitalism has government intervention in the market and more. You call me a righty, they call me a communist. It's interesting putting truth first and team adherence down on the list or priorities. Everyone projects like mad.
or am I going to have to apologize some more?
You haven't really apologized.

Yeah, ok, sorry I had an affair honey. Sorry, was born. Sorry I am a man. Is there anything else I should apologize for. Good luck finding a spouse who would consider that an apology.

And poor reading skills should not be in quotes. You must have read poorly to accuse me of threatening the Left. You also batched me as a Trump supporter. I have been quite clear I never liked the guy. You also assume I am on the right. I'm not. I can't be simply categorized, but mainly anarchist Left. So, yeah, I think the scare quotes around poor reading skills, given what acts you attributed to me and the failure to see a really rather large number of posts where I clearly come from the Left at facets of modern capitalism, make for some poor reading skills. Shit, I've gotten called communist myself a number of times and lashed out at the oversimplicity of those who label any disagreement communist. OK, you missed all that and made assumptions, much like the people calling you Communist just make assumptions. It's ironic.

But on the off chance that I misjudged how you would have reacted to a private appeal for a public apology or retraction, I'll go directly to you in the future.

Another thing adults realize about apologies is they explain how it happened.
Last edited by Karpel Tunnel on Sat Dec 12, 2020 5:52 am, edited 3 times in total.
Karpel Tunnel
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3625
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:26 pm

Re: An apology from Peter Kropotkin

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:47 am

Carleas, I'll call it an apology in relation to moderation.
Karpel Tunnel
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3625
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:26 pm

Re: An apology from Peter Kropotkin

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Fri Dec 11, 2020 9:21 am

don't go to carleas or IAM or anybody else.....
As far as Iamb, I once wondered if he would have the integrity to point out that you and he do not have the same ideas. And, further, in that situation I did go to you first, but my experience is that you avoided dealing with your own objectivism. And further that you presented Iamb’s ideas incorrectly. So, naturally, I think, I challenged him to point out the confusion. And this was after your non-response to the OP. Iamb is the expert on his own positions, at least potentially and I thought you were spouting nonsense in an off topic post in a thread I started. You had claimed you and he had the same beliefs just used different language. I did/do not think that is remotely the case. I made a case about that there, in response to you, focusing on objectivism. Sure, you tend to share political positions, though it seems to me he is vastly more cynical, as I am, about what he has referred to as Deep State and I would tend to refer to as an oligarchy. But as far as objectivism, I don't think you agree at all. The issue around objectivism has been his core concern for over a decade. If you agree, one of you is communicating poorly. He responded that he had talked about your disagreements, but he did not weigh in on whether your claim that you had the same beliefs was the case. Which to me was evasive, though I doubt intentionally. My question was not whether he would ever have a disagreement with you, but whether he would point this out in that thread.

So, that was a completely different situation. You entered a thread, there, wrote as if you were responding to the OP, but did not respond to the OP. When I pointed this out, you said you wrote about what you wanted to write about. Well, generally the idea is then to do that in some other thread. Also, not a great idea to write as if one is responding.

Your offtopic post included the statement about having the same beliefs as him. And you responded not on the core issue of objectivism which I had raised, but about experience affecting how we see things. Which pretty much everyone agrees with though to differing degrees. IOW you didn't respond to what I was saying you guys do not agree on, the core issue of Iamb's. This was one of the exchanges where, because of those responses, I got the impression you could be disingenuous. Since it seemed like you were not going to actually respond to my post after not having responded to the OP, yup, I called out Iamb to weigh in on whether you have the same beliefs as him from his perspective. If you'd actually engaged with me and what I wrote in the thread, I would have engaged with you. I had similar experiences in other threads, where, from my perspective you don't respond to points made, but say other stuff.

But hey, I can change my mind. We'll see what happens if you go into the threads I suggested above. We can both seek to have middle ground there. Shouldn't be hard at all in the Capitalism thread. Start a new leaf and all that.
Karpel Tunnel
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3625
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:26 pm

Re: An apology from Peter Kropotkin

Postby iambiguous » Fri Dec 11, 2020 7:01 pm

So, it appears that Curly has a new target to vent on.

Peter, welcome to the club. You now officially have your very own Stooge here. On the other hand, how long can it be before he "foes" you and moves on to someone else.

Still, I'll attempt [yet again] to set the record straight.

Curly wrote:As far as Iamb, I once wondered if he would have the integrity to point out that you and he do not have the same ideas. And, further, in that situation I did go to you first, but my experience is that you avoided dealing with your own objectivism. And further that you presented Iamb’s ideas incorrectly. So, naturally, I think, I challenged him to point out the confusion.


In regard to grasping one's own intentions and motivations in exploring moral and political value judgments out in the world of actual human interactions, the extent to which one does not experience confusion and ambiguity and uncertainty is, from my own subjective perspective, the extent to which he or she may well be an objectivist.

But, over and over and over again, I make it clear that my own understanding of an objectivist itself is no less rooted in dasein. I'm not arguing that this is what an objectivist is. Only that "here and now" this is what I think it is "in my head".

And that given new experiences, relationships, access to ideas etc., I might find my mind being changed.

Only for some I go too far when I point out that it seems reasonable to suggest this is applicable to everyone else as well.

So, what is an objectivist to me? An objectivist is someone who believes they are in sync with the real me [what some call the "soul"], in sync with the "right thing to do" in regard to moral and political and religious and esthetic value judgments.

Now, I am not inside Peter's head. I have no way of grasping for certain if, given my own set of assumptions, he reflects my own subjective parameters of objectivism.

But even if he does I would have no less respect for his intelligence. And for his commitment to come here day in and day out and actually pursue the sort of thinking that I myself associate with those who really do "love philosophy".

On the contrary, the mystery for me continues to be Karpel Tunnel/Moreno himself.

The part of him that continues to cling to his "visceral, intuitive, deep-down-inside-him" Self so as to keep the "fractured and fragmented" "I" at bay.

Only he doesn't have the intellectual integrity to pursue that with me in a serious exchange on the philosophy board. Instead, he hides behind the "foe" option to keep the points I raise out of his head altogether.

Again, ironically enough, the sort of reaction I usually get from the hardcore objectivists here.

And the Kids!
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
User avatar
iambiguous
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 41514
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: hanging out with godot


Return to Meta



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users