Don't feed a troll

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Re: Don't feed a troll

Postby iambiguous » Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:56 pm

Larry wrote:If it happened rarely, then you would get the benefit of the doubt.

But it's a regular occurrence.

Consider this thread ... you managed to squeeze value judgements and feeling "fractured and fragmented" into it.


Again, for those who advocate not feeding the troll, the first thing they ought to do is to stop reading the troll.

And, if you do and respond to them, isn't that feeding them?

At least Curly has enough integrity not to read and to respond to me. Or so he says.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

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Re: Don't feed a troll

Postby MagsJ » Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:06 am

Someone wrote:I know you so well now.

Oh no he doesn’t..

Someone wrote:You think you’re a ‘trickster spirit’. I already know the game. Zero sum realities don’t work. You have no ability to trick me anymore. Your arguments against me are baseless.

..thing is, he trolls the many threads, and not just the few.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Don't feed a troll

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:11 am

As long as the dialogue with a troll has even as the slightest partial goal the acknowledgement of pretty much anything by the troll, that dialogue is not a dialogue. Because it is easy, especially online, to never acknowledge anything AND continued dialogue, irritation, attention is the opposed goal. Might as well argue with an echo or a bot.

It will not end. The attention WILL necessarily lead to more of the same behavior because getting the attention, especially if it is emotionally charged, is interpreted as winning.

A reduction in the behavior can only follow a reduction in attention. And, yes, it will likely not be a complete reduction, but this might prevent hijacking or at least reduce. Some more noise in threads, but the signals remain a higher percentage.

At some point the battered wife will hopefully decide she cannot change the batterer with more love and attention or logical argument.

Though is she wants to get the pattern going, well, that is her choice.
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Re: Don't feed a troll

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:14 am

MagsJ wrote:
Someone wrote:I know you so well now.

Oh no he doesn’t..

Someone wrote:You think you’re a ‘trickster spirit’. I already know the game. Zero sum realities don’t work. You have no ability to trick me anymore. Your arguments against me are baseless.

..thing is, he trolls the many threads, and not just the few.
My suggestion then, if someone is a troll for you, is not to respond to him at all. Then you have less of what you consider a troll in your life. If the troll generally responds to your posts, especially your posts about or in reaction to your troll's posts, then not responding will lead to less troll posts.

But if you enjoy increasing the number of what is for you a troll's posts, then by all means keep responding.
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Re: Don't feed a troll

Postby iambiguous » Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:49 am

Karpel Tunnel wrote:My suggestion then, if someone is a troll for you, is not to respond to him at all. Then you have less of what you consider a troll in your life. If the troll generally responds to your posts, especially your posts about or in reaction to your troll's posts, then not responding will lead to less troll posts.


Note to Phyllo:

What he said.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

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Re: Don't feed a troll

Postby MagsJ » Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:00 am

Karpel Tunnel wrote:My suggestion then, if someone is a troll for you, is not to respond to him at all.

I know.. I’m trying, I’m trying.. It amuses me so, though.

But my amusement is waning, and I intend to cease.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Don't feed a troll

Postby phyllo » Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:34 am

Let me ask a few questions of the readers.

Should I ignore Iambiguous or should I continue to point out to him when he derails threads or tries to control threads or injects his particular interests into threads?

Which course of action is better for the community? Which course of action is better for him?

Am I being out of line?

( I realize that in the process of pointing out his behaviors, I'm also derailing the threads. Hopefully it's a brief derailment.)
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Re: Don't feed a troll

Postby iambiguous » Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:55 am

Larry wrote:Let me ask a few questions of the readers.

Should I ignore Iambiguous or should I continue to point out to him when he derails threads or tries to control threads or injects his particular interests into threads?


Note to others:

Starting now, please bring to our attention [on this thread] actual instances of me "derailing threads" or "controlling threads".

From Larry's point of view, there are so many instances of this, we should have no trouble quickly accumulating enough to examine in more detail exactly how I go about this.

As for injecting my own interest into threads, guilty as charged. My interest in philosophy is overwhelmingly focused on examining the existential relationship between "morality here and now" and immortality there and then."

Given the points that I raise in my signature threads. Fortunately, however, no one is actually required to read anything that I post. And anyone is free to "foe" me.

On the other hand, given the number of views I garner on just these threads alone...

https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=170060
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 8&t=195930
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 8&t=196100
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 8&t=196110
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=175121
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=195600
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=176529
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 5&t=185296
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=175006
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 5&t=186929
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=195614
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=195964
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 5&t=185296
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=194382

...enough members here either don't see me as a troll, or are willing to overlook it to read my posts.

Anyway, I challenge Larry to "foe" me. In other words, to stop bitching and moaning about someone it is all too easy to efface from his life.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

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Re: Don't feed a troll

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:44 am

I am sure my position is clear already but since you asked....

phyllo wrote:Let me ask a few questions of the readers.

Should I ignore Iambiguous or should I continue to point out to him when he derails threads or tries to control threads or injects his particular interests into threads?

Which course of action is better for the community? Which course of action is better for him?

Am I being out of line?

( I realize that in the process of pointing out his behaviors, I'm also derailing the threads. Hopefully it's a brief derailment.)
I think it works better to ignore. Perhaps pointing out once that it is off topic and then not engaging. The problem is that it becomes a discussion of his behavior. You know that he does not cop to stuff. You know he has standard replies to any issue about his behavior - now you are making this about me. And of course if you are reacting to his behavior you are making it about him, because it is about him. And then there is also 'the real reason you have problems with me is because you are an objectivist or are somehow triggered by his ideas'. He's been there, he knows your reactions are like his. So he has a firewall to learning from your pointing out his behavior. And these firewalls go back more than a decade.

I don't think you are out of line, by the way. And obviously I have been there myself and for a long period of time. It's tantalizing. Perhaps this incredibly obvious point I am making with direct evidence in quotes form his post will finally get a tiny peep of an acknowledgement. How could it not, when a number of others are pointing out the same thing. But he has, so far, been utterly impervious. For all his anxiety about how dasein can change one's beliefs and who knows what tomorrow will bring, he's extremely stable.

So what happens is pointing out his behavior leads to more of his posts in a thread. At least, that's my take.

Perhaps you could try just pointing it out and not engage further. One post, then back on topic. But once it becomes a discussion I think this functions just as he wants. It's an invitation to raise his issues and also to frustrate you even more.

Perhaps you have found success somewhere that I missed. I mean, that he acknowledged your point or changed behavior, stopped derailing a thread. If so, let me know and a link would be wonderful.

Of course it really would help if mostly everyone did that. People could respond when he is on topic and continue dialogue when he responds to what one wrote and not to what one didn't write. When he responds and doesn't merely dismiss or label.

And those who want to talk about his issues, the way he wants them to be talked about, can do that also, obviously.
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Re: Don't feed a troll

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:59 am

There is also, at the same time one has to deal with trolls, the problem of people who want to treat any disagreement as 'the other person is utterly opposed to me and my values and is betraying reality, the founders, humanity, global health.....'So nearly any discussion instantly has labels whipped out, then accusations, and very little actual arguing of points. The very idea that there might be a spectrum of positions or that people could actually learn anything at all from each other is not on the table. Once you draw this utterly binary line in the sand and have called out the other as a moronic, traitorous inhuman, it's not likely one will concede even the most trivial point.

So trolls wandering into that kind of environment are harder to see.

Maybe we should call ILP I love Catharsis. Come here and vomit your bile on your enemies.
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Re: Don't feed a troll

Postby MagsJ » Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:11 pm

_
There’s:
Arguing from emotion
Arguing from projection
Arguing from a place of ignorance
Arguing from a lack of prior knowledge of an argument
Arguing from prior disagreements
Arguing from a pre-conceived expectation

All these are hindering to the knowledge seeker, and one sometimes wonders, if it’s sometimes done on purpose, by some.. probably yes. But then those, with an ability to research and understand, need not worry about that.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Don't feed a troll

Postby phyllo » Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:22 pm

But then those, with an ability to research and understand, need not worry about that.
You can research and understand on your own or some other place where you're not going to be called a liar or moron by a bunch of closed-minded egoists.

A lot of the threads are not even discussions ... it's somebody on a soapbox. And often someone full of hostility.
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Re: Don't feed a troll

Postby Ecmandu » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:15 pm

Everyone who disagrees that nobody wants their consent violated now or ever is trolling LIFE ITSELF!

Not just ILP.

Yes, I’ll call you a moron for stating you want your consent violated. Actually, I’ll also call bullshit.

I’m not full of this magnitude of shit like many ILPers here.

You are the trolls, not me. I’m trying to herd trolls (like herding cats)... pretty fucking silly, but I do it anyways.
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Re: Don't feed a troll

Postby Carleas » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:25 pm

I feel like this is a good place to plug the "Friends and Foes" feature, which will hide by default posts from anyone on your foes list. If the end is not to feed the trolls, and the means is not to read the trolls, it's a good tool to have.
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Re: Don't feed a troll

Postby Ecmandu » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:29 pm

Carleas wrote:I feel like this is a good place to plug the "Friends and Foes" feature, which will hide by default posts from anyone on your foes list. If the end is not to feed the trolls, and the means is not to read the trolls, it's a good tool to have.


I somewhat agree. I’ve never ignored someone in over 20 years on the net. I look down on people who do this personally.

I always have an open proposition: it’s been standing for years now.

Debate me in the debate forums. If I lose, I’m permabanned, if you lose, nothing happens to you.

Fair trade. What do people do with my offer? Cower.

I’m not the troll here Carleas. I mean what I say to that regard.
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Re: Don't feed a troll

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:34 pm

Carleas wrote:I feel like this is a good place to plug the "Friends and Foes" feature, which will hide by default posts from anyone on your foes list. If the end is not to feed the trolls, and the means is not to read the trolls, it's a good tool to have.
Yes, it is a nice option. It makes thread, in many case, actual read on topic straight through. It's like life. You don't hang out with everyone, nor do you engage everyone in conversation. Read every book, follow every conversation at the cafe. And so on. It can also help reduce the urge to point out something to someone who never, from your perspective, is capable of conceding anything. It may even seem like a kind of duty to point out something illogical or disruptive. But if pointing these things out has not led to any gains for yourself, the poster in question or the community, there's little need to engage. And just to be contentious, I find that the people morally outraged but the foe function are simply better at not really paying attention to the posts they 'read' and 'respond to'. And irony that is actually quite funny.
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Re: Don't feed a troll

Postby iambiguous » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:40 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:I am sure my position is clear already but since you asked....

phyllo wrote:Let me ask a few questions of the readers.

Should I ignore Iambiguous or should I continue to point out to him when he derails threads or tries to control threads or injects his particular interests into threads?

Which course of action is better for the community? Which course of action is better for him?

Am I being out of line?

( I realize that in the process of pointing out his behaviors, I'm also derailing the threads. Hopefully it's a brief derailment.)
I think it works better to ignore. Perhaps pointing out once that it is off topic and then not engaging. The problem is that it becomes a discussion of his behavior. You know that he does not cop to stuff. You know he has standard replies to any issue about his behavior - now you are making this about me. And of course if you are reacting to his behavior you are making it about him, because it is about him. And then there is also 'the real reason you have problems with me is because you are an objectivist or are somehow triggered by his ideas'. He's been there, he knows your reactions are like his. So he has a firewall to learning from your pointing out his behavior. And these firewalls go back more than a decade.

I don't think you are out of line, by the way. And obviously I have been there myself and for a long period of time. It's tantalizing. Perhaps this incredibly obvious point I am making with direct evidence in quotes form his post will finally get a tiny peep of an acknowledgement. How could it not, when a number of others are pointing out the same thing. But he has, so far, been utterly impervious. For all his anxiety about how dasein can change one's beliefs and who knows what tomorrow will bring, he's extremely stable.

So what happens is pointing out his behavior leads to more of his posts in a thread. At least, that's my take.

Perhaps you could try just pointing it out and not engage further. One post, then back on topic. But once it becomes a discussion I think this functions just as he wants. It's an invitation to raise his issues and also to frustrate you even more.

Perhaps you have found success somewhere that I missed. I mean, that he acknowledged your point or changed behavior, stopped derailing a thread. If so, let me know and a link would be wonderful.

Of course it really would help if mostly everyone did that. People could respond when he is on topic and continue dialogue when he responds to what one wrote and not to what one didn't write. When he responds and doesn't merely dismiss or label.

And those who want to talk about his issues, the way he wants them to be talked about, can do that also, obviously.


Note to others:

Please pass this along to Curly:

"Yet again you hurl these accusations about me above.

But: before you "foed" me, I challenged you thusly:

Whenever Curly wants to dispense with the Stooge persona, I am more than willing to explore his accusations here in the philosophy forum.

No huffing and puffing, no clamoring histrionics, no personal attacks.

Just him and me discussing our respective moral philosophies given a context that most of us here are likely to be familiar with.


That way if and when I do all of the things that you accuse me of, you can note it."

Same with Larry and Moe or anyone else here. If you have accusations to make against me and you have an interest in discussing the arguments I make my signature threads relating to a particular set of circumstances, let's take our intelligence and civility to the philosophy board and commence a discussion that lives up to the reason this venue was created in the first place: to engage those who do love philosophy.

In all the different ways [rooted in dasein] that it can be loved.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

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Re: Don't feed a troll

Postby iambiguous » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:41 pm

Carleas wrote:I feel like this is a good place to plug the "Friends and Foes" feature, which will hide by default posts from anyone on your foes list. If the end is not to feed the trolls, and the means is not to read the trolls, it's a good tool to have.


What he said.

Edit:

To the best of my understanding, when you foe someone here, his or her posts still appear on the thread, but you have the option to click on them.

Why not eliminate that option as well. If, technically, that's possible. So, when you "foe" someone, his or her posts never even show up on the thread at all. That way the temptation itself is eliminated.

Me, I've never foed anyone myself. In part because once you do that they are free to post anything they like about you. And you have given yourself no option to rebut what they say because unless you click on all of their posts -- negating the foe option -- you don't know what they say.

Also, they might change their mind about you. Or change how they think about something that interest you. But how will you know?
Last edited by iambiguous on Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

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Re: Don't feed a troll

Postby phyllo » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:42 pm

"Friends and Foes"
It's not just about ignoring people who you don't want to talk to (for whatever reason).

Part of it is about what a forum is for, what the participants get out of it. Building something useful, interesting, stimulating, informative ...

'Friend and Foe' doesn't do that. It puts you and other people in boxes.
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Re: Don't feed a troll

Postby Ecmandu » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:45 pm

Alright Karpel,

The beauty of talking through the trash every time is that you grow.

You know what the biggest problem on earth is? Compartmentalization of television, radio and the internet.

Let’s say I go to a Christian forum and I argue god doesn’t exist, not only will I be banned, all my posts will be deleted.

We live in an echo chamber society right now (more than ever before), even as its touted “the Information Age”

I like getting down and dirty with anyone, it’s made me a better thinker.

That’s why I look down upon the ignore function; the echo chamber is cowardice to me.

You have the earn your fucking arguments, not just have all of them reenforced through this crazy compartmentalization age (the opposite of the Information Age)

Why don’t you take me up on my outstanding offer to these boards, if you really think I’m a troll and you can do it - I’ll be permabanned.

Why doesn’t mag do it?

Etc...

No. You’re the trolls. Understand?
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Re: Don't feed a troll

Postby phyllo » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:49 pm

Compartmentalization of television, radio and the internet.

We live in an echo chamber society right now (more than ever before), even as its touted “the Information Age”

Yeah, that.
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Re: Don't feed a troll

Postby MagsJ » Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:00 pm

phyllo wrote:
But then those, with an ability to research and understand, need not worry about that.
You can research and understand on your own or some other place where you're not going to be called a liar or moron by a bunch of closed-minded egoists.

A lot of the threads are not even discussions ... it's somebody on a soapbox. And often someone full of hostility.

I guess you are alluding to the current left/right division and dramas/the US election aftermath.. which ain’t over until the Senate and Congress, sing?
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Don't feed a troll

Postby phyllo » Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:33 am

Yeah, that's the worst of it.
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Re: Don't feed a troll

Postby Mr Reasonable » Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:53 am

phyllo wrote:Let me ask a few questions of the readers.

Should I ignore Iambiguous or should I continue to point out to him when he derails threads or tries to control threads or injects his particular interests into threads?

Which course of action is better for the community? Which course of action is better for him?

Am I being out of line?

( I realize that in the process of pointing out his behaviors, I'm also derailing the threads. Hopefully it's a brief derailment.)



hes a weirdo who tries to make every conversation into the one conversation that he wants to have so yeah
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Re: Don't feed a troll

Postby iambiguous » Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:53 am

Mr Reasonable wrote:
phyllo wrote:Let me ask a few questions of the readers.

Should I ignore Iambiguous or should I continue to point out to him when he derails threads or tries to control threads or injects his particular interests into threads?

Which course of action is better for the community? Which course of action is better for him?

Am I being out of line?

( I realize that in the process of pointing out his behaviors, I'm also derailing the threads. Hopefully it's a brief derailment.)


hes a weirdo who tries to make every conversation into the one conversation that he wants to have so yeah



Hey, he asked for it!

I'm sitting on my couch, watching a video of the alabama/lsu game while smoking a bong and waiting for chinese food to be delivered. I was thinking of getting someone over here to clean the place. This is usually what I'm doing, I've seen this game about 130-140 times now.
Or I'm in the bathroom someplace, bored and using my phone to post on message boards while I poop.

What are you doing right now?


There's no way I can actually prove this but "in my head" this is the post on the thread that propelled ILP down the slope into being just another "social media" adjunct. The worst of Facebook and Twitter combined.

And now he's back dumping one or two liners on a zillion threads.

Look, don't get me wrong, I've participated on his own signature thread myself. And Mr. Reasonable has contributed a number of posts on politics here that were in fact well thought out and well articulated. He's no Kid in that regard. But it's basically the exception. Especially of late. He's more into the "yak yak yak" exchanges now. Social media chit chat by and large.

You know, if I do say so myself.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

tiny nietzsche: what's something that isn't nothing, but still feels like nothing?
iambiguous: a post from Pedro?
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iambiguous
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