## Good News of the Kingdom

For intuitive and critical discussions, from spirituality to theological doctrines. Fair warning: because the subject matter is personal, moderation is strict.

Moderator: Dan~

### Re: Good News of the Kingdom

iambiguous wrote:
Ichthus77 wrote:
iambiguous, What would you accept as a demonstration of “God, your Kingdom, your spiritual path” and “the true path” since you rejected my answers above - or why did you reject them?

Restating stuff without defining acceptable demonstration … gives us no mark or goal post for progress in discourse toward truth.

We wake up one morning and there's this guy on every single television channel around the globe telling us that He is God. And, He tells us, in order to prove this, He will make it so that in the next 24 hours not a single child anywhere around the world will die from starvation, or go to bed hungry, or suffer any sexual or emotional abuse, or, in fact, not be bursting at the seams with great big smiles.

And incredibly enough, He turns out to be virtually indistinguishable from your own "private and personal" Christian God.

That'll work as "good news of the Kingdom" for me.

Also, just out of curiosity, given that for many the Christian God is said to be infinitely loving, just and merciful, why isn't it that the way for all children now?

What if folks don’t have TV, aren’t in front of their TV, etc? And what do you have against smiling kids? I don’t have a mental image of God. Does he only love children? Why only children - there’s a lot of other people suffering. Who counts as a child? Does suffering come back at a certain point? How is that going to affect them? If he’s going to end suffering at all, why doesn’t he just end all suffering? I know why.

His harshest words are reserved for those who harm children. He says it will be better for them if they had a millstone hung around their neck and they were thrown into the ocean. The Lord disciplines those he loves.

We need to take ownership for our own crap & stop blaming God when we screw things up.

I think a lot of the reason we don’t do what it takes to change the world so we have nothing like this to complain about is because we are busy ignoring the source of what would give us power to do it, and instead our focus is on the pursuit of lesser things. We really don’t have any room or right to complain - regardless who is at fault - when that is our position.

If we want stuff to get better we need to get rid of our crap and refocus to the one who loves us and the ones who need us to be fully present.

I’m all kinds of messed up in that department. Grateful for so much mercy.
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas

“ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “
Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive.
- Irenaeus

Ichthus77
ILP Legend

Posts: 6070
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:48 pm
Location: pale blue clump of star particles

### Re: Good News of the Kingdom

Iambiguous said, “what will get them up or down on Judgment Day?”

That misses the point. But if you want to avoid the fire of refinement, seek him before he seeks you. It doesn’t actually work that way, but it appears to sometimes.
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas

“ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “
Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive.
- Irenaeus

Ichthus77
ILP Legend

Posts: 6070
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:48 pm
Location: pale blue clump of star particles

### Re: Good News of the Kingdom

It doesn’t actually work that way, but it appears to sometimes.

Full on Holy Spirit right there. Unintended.

Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas

“ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “
Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive.
- Irenaeus

Ichthus77
ILP Legend

Posts: 6070
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:48 pm
Location: pale blue clump of star particles

### Re: Good News of the Kingdom

copy paste on earth as it is in heaven (read: synthesis)

Ichthus77 wrote:iambiguous, how about the context of

a) tell truth to would-be murderer beating your door down to get at their victim you’re hiding

vs

b) save the person’s life and withhold truth from said would-be murderer

Which scenario treats each other as self? Given that harming an innocent without just cause (like a mercy killing) is a “privation” of good—or do you need that established?

I have addressed all your other concerns multiple times in many threads. If you would like to focus on one example/context, I have provided you the opportunity.
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas

“ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “
Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive.
- Irenaeus

Ichthus77
ILP Legend

Posts: 6070
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:48 pm
Location: pale blue clump of star particles

### Re: Good News of the Kingdom

keeping the love alive, & see last reply for more synthesis of the spiritual/mundane

Ichthus77 wrote:Attempt #3832.

We are still allowed to exist.

2] addressing the fact that down through the ages hundreds of Gods, Kingdoms and spiritual paths to immortality and salvation were/are championed...but only one of which [if any] can be the true path. So why yours?

The sort of love Jesus’ death & resurrection demonstrates (self=other) is transcultural, discovered by every major culture in history. But it only describes him & what he did/does.

3] addressing the profoundly problematic role that dasein plays in any particular individual's belief in Gods, Kingdoms of Ends and spiritual paths

Choosing the Golden Rule together is the essence we share with God. Only God fully exists it.

4] the questions that revolve around theodicy and your own particular God, Kingdom or spiritual path

It’s only a question if evil is a real privation resolved by a real good (see 2).
Last edited by Ichthus77 on Wed Feb 09, 2022 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas

“ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “
Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive.
- Irenaeus

Ichthus77
ILP Legend

Posts: 6070
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:48 pm
Location: pale blue clump of star particles

### Re: Good News of the Kingdom

If iambiguous actually believes what he believes, stop wiggling and engage, or forever hold your piece/peace.
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas

“ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “
Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive.
- Irenaeus

Ichthus77
ILP Legend

Posts: 6070
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:48 pm
Location: pale blue clump of star particles

### Re: Good News of the Kingdom

****************
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas

“ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “
Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive.
- Irenaeus

Ichthus77
ILP Legend

Posts: 6070
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:48 pm
Location: pale blue clump of star particles

### Re: Good News of the Kingdom

iambiguous wrote:
Ichthus77 wrote:
iambiguous, What would you accept as a demonstration of “God, your Kingdom, your spiritual path” and “the true path” since you rejected my answers above - or why did you reject them?

Restating stuff without defining acceptable demonstration … gives us no mark or goal post for progress in discourse toward truth.

We wake up one morning and there's this guy on every single television channel around the globe telling us that He is God. And, He tells us, in order to prove this, He will make it so that in the next 24 hours not a single child anywhere around the world will die from starvation, or go to bed hungry, or suffer any sexual or emotional abuse, or, in fact, not be bursting at the seams with great big smiles.

And incredibly enough, He turns out to be virtually indistinguishable from your own "private and personal" Christian God.

That'll work as "good news of the Kingdom" for me.

Also, just out of curiosity, given that for many the Christian God is said to be infinitely loving, just and merciful, why isn't it that the way for all children now?
I guess that I have to state the obvious.

This is not a "demonstration" or "proof" that anyone on this forum, or any human, can provide. It depends entirely on God doing something specific for you.

Therefore, anyone attempting to address point 1] ( a demonstrable proof of the existence your God, your Kingdom, your spiritual path) is guaranteed to fail.

Maybe that's intentional.

phyllo
ILP Legend

Posts: 13131
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:41 am

### Re: Good News of the Kingdom

If you are talking about miracle… he would not have given the TV example.

If you are talking about private truths… I said I don’t have a mental image of God, but I should have said (again??? cuz this is like some damn level in a game????) that truth is true for all, or it’s true for none.

I am not repeating everything all over again. Go to jail. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200. Do not roll snake eyes lol dumb. Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately. “In choosing myself, I choose the other.” - A marriage of Sartre & Levinas “ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “ Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive. - Irenaeus Ichthus77 ILP Legend Posts: 6070 Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:48 pm Location: pale blue clump of star particles ### Re: Good News of the Kingdom Pretty sure I already mentioned this is not the realm of proof/demonstration on the level of say, math (I’m no Descartes… I wouldn’t know a mathematical proof if I took all that shit over again into infinity)… But my example in 1 is a demonstration. So is the cross. And I’m mos def not a cessationist… if that’s what this is about… but as far as full on speaking in tongues, I’m with Paul on order & needing an interpreter or it’s gibberish. On that note… my friend Bob39 may need one for me. Lol :p Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately. “In choosing myself, I choose the other.” - A marriage of Sartre & Levinas “ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “ Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive. - Irenaeus Ichthus77 ILP Legend Posts: 6070 Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:48 pm Location: pale blue clump of star particles ### Re: Good News of the Kingdom And as far as “How can God make himself obvious to you without making everyone else jealous or bringing everything to a screeching halt,” — that’s my line. Also - they won’t be jealous, in the former. They’ll consider you crazy. And they’d be fricken accurate. But my example is a good one… he allows us to keep existing… and left evidence of the cross & resurrection. Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately. “In choosing myself, I choose the other.” - A marriage of Sartre & Levinas “ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “ Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive. - Irenaeus Ichthus77 ILP Legend Posts: 6070 Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:48 pm Location: pale blue clump of star particles ### Re: Good News of the Kingdom The only other “obvious” alternative is “judgment day” - patience Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately. “In choosing myself, I choose the other.” - A marriage of Sartre & Levinas “ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “ Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive. - Irenaeus Ichthus77 ILP Legend Posts: 6070 Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:48 pm Location: pale blue clump of star particles ### Re: Good News of the Kingdom We are still allowed to exist. It’s this: https://ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.p ... n#p2853333 …but also acknowledges (by allusion) why things are not otherwise. Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately. “In choosing myself, I choose the other.” - A marriage of Sartre & Levinas “ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “ Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive. - Irenaeus Ichthus77 ILP Legend Posts: 6070 Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:48 pm Location: pale blue clump of star particles ### Re: Good News of the Kingdom MagsJ wrote:got/gott/ghut -"that which is invoked", taking on the alternative meaning of good, because god is good. Plausible? The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. ~MagsJ I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something important at some point in time.. Huh!? ~MagsJ You’re suggestions and I just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a very bad DJ ~MagsJ Examine what is said, not him who speaks ~Arab proverb aes Sanātana Dharma Pali: the eternal way ~it should not be rigid, but inclusive of the best of all knowledge for the sake of Ṛta.. which is endless. MagsJ The Londonist: a chic geek Posts: 25060 Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:59 pm Location: Suryaloka / LDN Town ### Re: Good News of the Kingdom After studying Jesus’ words and being puzzled by how some of them regarding judgment seem to conflict, I’ve made sense out of them this way... 1) The Father does not judge, condemn, or pass sentence. He gives the Son the authority to do that, the same way the Son gave us the authority. The emphasis is always mercy (good news of the kingdom), and his harshest words (judgments) were for the merciless. 2) The Son did not come to pass sentence, or accuse, but save the sick who were/are not in denial about it. There is peace for those who accept it, but it is a radical peace that does not appease, and for those who reject it, it does not cause peace but division. He does not water things down for those who reject (iow, for the merciless who are in denial about their sickness). 3) Lack of belief/acceptance of the Son’s/Father’s words is what condemns. You stay sick. Like leaven...you spread your sickness when you are unmerciful to others. As C.S. Lewis said, “The doors to hell are locked from the inside.” Hell is a chosen rejection of heaven (God’s love). If you don’t want his love, heaven is hell. And everyone will be salted by that fire. There is no escaping it. ❤️ Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately. “In choosing myself, I choose the other.” - A marriage of Sartre & Levinas “ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “ Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive. - Irenaeus Ichthus77 ILP Legend Posts: 6070 Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:48 pm Location: pale blue clump of star particles ### Re: Good News of the Kingdom phyllo wrote: iambiguous wrote: Ichthus77 wrote: iambiguous, What would you accept as a demonstration of “God, your Kingdom, your spiritual path” and “the true path” since you rejected my answers above - or why did you reject them? Restating stuff without defining acceptable demonstration … gives us no mark or goal post for progress in discourse toward truth. How about this... We wake up one morning and there's this guy on every single television channel around the globe telling us that He is God. And, He tells us, in order to prove this, He will make it so that in the next 24 hours not a single child anywhere around the world will die from starvation, or go to bed hungry, or suffer any sexual or emotional abuse, or, in fact, not be bursting at the seams with great big smiles. And incredibly enough, He turns out to be virtually indistinguishable from your own "private and personal" Christian God. That'll work as "good news of the Kingdom" for me. Also, just out of curiosity, given that for many the Christian God is said to be infinitely loving, just and merciful, why isn't it that the way for all children now? I guess that I have to state the obvious. This is not a "demonstration" or "proof" that anyone on this forum, or any human, can provide. It depends entirely on God doing something specific for you. Note to phyllo's God: Want to do something specific for me? Then start with ending the suffering of the truly innocent babes. Just for a day or two. Either that or come clean regarding why, when I turn on my TV, commercials from St. Jude's and Shriner Hospitals remind us of just some of the terrible afflictions you inflict on truly innocent children. Is the reason that it makes some of us feel good about ourselves by donating$19 a month to care for these kids afflicted with terrible diseases and conditions that You brought into the world?

Also, explain to phyllo why these afflictions and conditions were intentional on Your part. Or is Rabbi Kushner closer to the truth?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

"Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?"

Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me."

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 46406
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: hanging out with godot

### Re: Good News of the Kingdom

You were asking for a demonstration from people on this forum.

Then instead of saying what you expected from people here, you switched to a demonstration from God.

Why? Who knows.

phyllo
ILP Legend

Posts: 13131
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:41 am

### Re: Good News of the Kingdom

phyllo wrote:You were asking for a demonstration from people on this forum.

Then instead of saying what you expected from people here, you switched to a demonstration from God.

Why? Who knows.

Look, either those who believe in one of dozens and dozens of Gods out there are willing to concede that a demonstration of their own God's existence would go a long way toward saving souls, or, with so much at stake on both sides of the grave, they at least have the intellectual honesty and integrity to own up to the fact that their own "private and personal" God has done a piss-poor job in bringing mere mortals over to the one true path.

In the interim, the terrible afflictions endured by innocent children are no less agonizing for both them and their loved ones to bear.

Right?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

"Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?"

Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me."

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 46406
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: hanging out with godot

### Re: Good News of the Kingdom

Ichthus77 wrote:After studying Jesus’ words and being puzzled by how some of them regarding judgment seem to conflict, I’ve made sense out of them this way...

1) The Father does not judge, condemn, or pass sentence. He gives the Son the authority to do that, the same way the Son gave us the authority. The emphasis is always mercy (good news of the kingdom), and his harshest words (judgments) were for the merciless.

2) The Son did not come to pass sentence, or accuse, but save the sick who were/are not in denial about it. There is peace for those who accept it, but it is a radical peace that does not appease, and for those who reject it, it does not cause peace but division. He does not water things down for those who reject (iow, for the merciless who are in denial about their sickness).

3) Lack of belief/acceptance of the Son’s/Father’s words is what condemns. You stay sick. Like leaven...you spread your sickness when you are unmerciful to others.

As C.S. Lewis said, “The doors to hell are locked from the inside.” Hell is a chosen rejection of heaven (God’s love). If you don’t want his love, heaven is hell. And everyone will be salted by that fire. There is no escaping it.

❤️

You posted your conclusions without posting the verses or passages upon which you based them. Therefore, we have no way of knowing if your iferences are well founded, how you arrived at your interpretations, or whether your thinking is logical.

felix dakat
Janitor

Posts: 10953
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:20 am
Location: USA

### Re: Good News of the Kingdom

I have classes all day and it only takes two hours to read the document. If you want me to copy and paste the relevant parts you’re gonna have to wait for me to be done with school and breathe a little bit this weekend. I get cranky when I’m on a time crunch; it’s not you it’s me.
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas

“ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “
Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive.
- Irenaeus

Ichthus77
ILP Legend

Posts: 6070
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:48 pm
Location: pale blue clump of star particles

### Re: Good News of the Kingdom

iambiguous, either we live in a universe where the suffering is meaningless and in vain and will never be reconciled, or we live in a universe where we are free to choose love (which might be painful, and which means pain is a thing) and eventually everything will be set right and we’ll know the sort of love that can overcome anything.

If we live in the first universe, why does it even exist? Why are we even having this conversation? Why do we even care if anyone suffers, as if that’s legit screwed up?

To me… from where I see… the burden is on you… or at least… it’s on you, too. And you got nothin.
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas

“ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “
Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive.
- Irenaeus

Ichthus77
ILP Legend

Posts: 6070
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:48 pm
Location: pale blue clump of star particles

### Re: Good News of the Kingdom

Ichthus77 wrote:iambiguous, either we live in a universe where the suffering is meaningless and in vain and will never be reconciled, or we live in a universe where we are free to choose love (which might be painful, and which means pain is a thing) and eventually everything will be set right and we’ll know the sort of love that can overcome anything.

If we live in the first universe, why does it even exist? Why are we even having this conversation? Why do we even care if anyone suffers, as if that’s legit screwed up?

To me… from where I see… the burden is on you… or at least… it’s on you, too. And you got nothin.

Good news of the La-La Land Kingdom let's call it.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

"Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?"

Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me."

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 46406
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: hanging out with godot

### Re: Good News of the Kingdom

while it La-La-Lasts… let’s say…
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas

“ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “
Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive.
- Irenaeus

Ichthus77
ILP Legend

Posts: 6070
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:48 pm
Location: pale blue clump of star particles

### Re: Good News of the Kingdom

Look, either those who believe in one of dozens and dozens of Gods out there are willing to concede that a demonstration of their own God's existence would go a long way toward saving souls, or, with so much at stake on both sides of the grave, they at least have the intellectual honesty and integrity to own up to the fact that their own "private and personal" God has done a piss-poor job in bringing mere mortals over to the one true path.
"Those who believe" already think that they have experienced a valid demonstration of their God's existence. That's why they believe.

They pass on that demonstration to others. (To the best of their ability.)

You're not convinced?

If the only demonstration that will convince you is a personal show from God, then it's not surprising that you're not convinced.

phyllo
ILP Legend

Posts: 13131
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:41 am

### Re: Good News of the Kingdom

What would happen if he showed himself every single moment (in a way that didn’t drive us simultaneously mad—if blindness isn’t madness) (also see: judgment day) is we would think it’s just a normal universe that didn’t require him to exist. And here we are. See my last posts (or posts I linked to) for where I explained it deeper. We have instances where he toned it down a little, and we don’t believe (evidence of) them, either. We’re like a girl with bad self-esteem that has been given so many signals from a secret admirer she refuses to believe. And it was always supposed to be that way.
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas

“ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “
Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive.
- Irenaeus

Ichthus77
ILP Legend

Posts: 6070
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:48 pm
Location: pale blue clump of star particles

PreviousNext