What If God Were A Tree?

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Re: What If God Were A Tree?

Postby Maia » Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:15 pm

Urwrongx1000 wrote:
Maia wrote:And all of them, except the year number, from Pagan sources.

You'd be surprised about numbers and mathematics too... Mathematicians were/are literally Magicians for many centuries.

It wasn't since the Enlightenment that they were re-defined as "Scientists" instead, which was the result of Secularization.


Pythagoras being the archetypal example of that.
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Re: What If God Were A Tree?

Postby Sculptor » Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:16 pm

Maia wrote:

Linking gods to planets is also the origin of astrology, which became very popular in Rome from about the first century AD. .

Yes that is right.

The apparent "appropriation" of Greek gods by Romans is an artefact of historiography, not a historical fact. Rome did not steal Greek gods; but greek and roman gods had to the same source. Such similarities are not exclusive to greece and rome but have echoes in Germanic myth too.
Astrology's roots are from Babylon and came to Rome quite late and so too is Jove's attribution to a planet Jupiter.
Jove is closer to Thor being the weilder of thunder and lightning, and sky father.
Zeus is not assocaited with a planet in greek mythology.
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Re: What If God Were A Tree?

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:20 pm

Maia wrote:Pythagoras being the archetypal example of that.

Rene Descartes and Spinoza are another pair who pushed mathematics forward really far, Christian and Jewish, but they were philosophers who propelled mathematical ideals.

Math and religion has a tenuous relationship. Judaism imbeds it in their language and letters.

Regardless, the Secularization of Europe was probably one of the best things to happen to Paganism after the Feudal ages, along with the Protestants.
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Re: What If God Were A Tree?

Postby Maia » Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:43 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Maia wrote:

Linking gods to planets is also the origin of astrology, which became very popular in Rome from about the first century AD. .

Yes that is right.

The apparent "appropriation" of Greek gods by Romans is an artefact of historiography, not a historical fact. Rome did not steal Greek gods; but greek and roman gods had to the same source. Such similarities are not exclusive to greece and rome but have echoes in Germanic myth too.
Astrology's roots are from Babylon and came to Rome quite late and so too is Jove's attribution to a planet Jupiter.
Jove is closer to Thor being the weilder of thunder and lightning, and sky father.
Zeus is not assocaited with a planet in greek mythology.


Roman, Greek and Germanic mythology all have a common source in Indo-European mythology.
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Re: What If God Were A Tree?

Postby Maia » Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:46 pm

Urwrongx1000 wrote:
Maia wrote:Pythagoras being the archetypal example of that.

Rene Descartes and Spinoza are another pair who pushed mathematics forward really far, Christian and Jewish, but they were philosophers who propelled mathematical ideals.

Math and religion has a tenuous relationship. Judaism imbeds it in their language and letters.

Regardless, the Secularization of Europe was probably one of the best things to happen to Paganism after the Feudal ages, along with the Protestants.


The Greeks also used letters to represent numbers. As indeed does Braille.
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Re: What If God Were A Tree?

Postby promethean75 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:07 pm

Please stick to the topic.

We are asking 'what', if god was a tree.
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Re: What If God Were A Tree?

Postby Meno_ » Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:47 pm

Maia wrote:
Urwrongx1000 wrote:
Maia wrote:Pythagoras being the archetypal example of that.

Rene Descartes and Spinoza are another pair who pushed mathematics forward really far, Christian and Jewish, but they were philosophers who propelled mathematical ideals.

Math and religion has a tenuous relationship. Judaism imbeds it in their language and letters.

Regardless, the Secularization of Europe was probably one of the best things to happen to Paganism after the Feudal ages, along with the Protestants.


The Greeks also used letters to represent numbers. As indeed does Braille.




Like Egyptian glyphs.
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Re: What If God Were A Tree?

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:52 am

Maia wrote:The Greeks also used letters to represent numbers. As indeed does Braille.

Kind of... Greek letters and symbols refer to conceptual and geometric relationships. Pi, for example, is not a real number per se but rather the relationship that a circle has between its circumference and diameter. Linguistics, etymology, and the history of letters/runes is a very interesting study. I almost chose that as my profession once, but ended up with philosophy. The word and sentence-formation are more important than their singular parts (letters). Letters/runes/words are nothing without a mind to shape them into something worthwhile. When good philosophy is conducted, everybody is aware of it, because few can copy the rationality and reasoning required to do it. It's not like any other field of study or area of life. You are responsible for ideas; they can be good or bad, valuable or worthless. Furthermore, the more you dig into philosophy, you quickly wake-up and realize the fact of where/when/whom these ideas came from (ancestors), and how they progressed through history to right now.

It does not take much provocation or prodding to goad some aspirant to unveil you the true quality of their minds. This is also the same reason why people, including on this forum, are so quick to cower away from seemingly simple questions, inquiries, debates, and conflicts. Because they would show to the greater public how much, or how little, they actually think in life, about life.
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Re: What If God Were A Tree?

Postby Maia » Fri Nov 26, 2021 11:06 am

Urwrongx1000 wrote:
Maia wrote:The Greeks also used letters to represent numbers. As indeed does Braille.

Kind of... Greek letters and symbols refer to conceptual and geometric relationships. Pi, for example, is not a real number per se but rather the relationship that a circle has between its circumference and diameter. Linguistics, etymology, and the history of letters/runes is a very interesting study. I almost chose that as my profession once, but ended up with philosophy. The word and sentence-formation are more important than their singular parts (letters). Letters/runes/words are nothing without a mind to shape them into something worthwhile. When good philosophy is conducted, everybody is aware of it, because few can copy the rationality and reasoning required to do it. It's not like any other field of study or area of life. You are responsible for ideas; they can be good or bad, valuable or worthless. Furthermore, the more you dig into philosophy, you quickly wake-up and realize the fact of where/when/whom these ideas came from (ancestors), and how they progressed through history to right now.

It does not take much provocation or prodding to goad some aspirant to unveil you the true quality of their minds. This is also the same reason why people, including on this forum, are so quick to cower away from seemingly simple questions, inquiries, debates, and conflicts. Because they would show to the greater public how much, or how little, they actually think in life, about life.


Greek letters were also used for ordinary numbers, alpha signifying one, and so on.

I really like runes, in part at least because they can be easily carved into wood, for example, and are therefore tactile.

The sort of philosophy that interests me the most is that which deals with how we perceive the world around us.
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Re: What If God Were A Tree?

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Fri Nov 26, 2021 11:14 am

Maia wrote:Greek letters were also used for ordinary numbers, alpha signifying one, and so on.

I really like runes, in part at least because they can be easily carved into wood, for example, and are therefore tactile.

The sort of philosophy that interests me the most is that which deals with how we perceive the world around us.

Everybody has slightly different minds, and therefore different perception, also based on infinitely different perspectives. The reason why humans relate with one-another, and can communicate, is based on instinctual levels of trust. If you cannot depend on a stranger giving you correct, accurate, or true instructions on where to go in a town or city, then that affects perception. Even the senses are inaccurate and have "blind spots" in them, including sound, taste, and touch. You may want to search into cognitive sciences if you want to know more about how perception works. The mind has to 'translate' sense-data and perceptual information into biological inputs. This is how, for example, people and animals recognize threats, which is also genetically heritable. And there are more sophisticated threats than what is perceived. There can be dangerous ideas and thoughts as well, like in mainstream religion, "thought crimes" or Doubt that can send people to hell. This is what is preached by some, anyway.
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Re: What If God Were A Tree?

Postby Maia » Fri Nov 26, 2021 11:25 am

Urwrongx1000 wrote:
Maia wrote:Greek letters were also used for ordinary numbers, alpha signifying one, and so on.

I really like runes, in part at least because they can be easily carved into wood, for example, and are therefore tactile.

The sort of philosophy that interests me the most is that which deals with how we perceive the world around us.

Everybody has slightly different minds, and therefore different perception, also based on infinitely different perspectives. The reason why humans relate with one-another, and can communicate, is based on instinctual levels of trust. If you cannot depend on a stranger giving you correct, accurate, or true instructions on where to go in a town or city, then that affects perception. Even the senses are inaccurate and have "blind spots" in them, including sound, taste, and touch. You may want to search into cognitive sciences if you want to know more about how perception works. The mind has to 'translate' sense-data and perceptual information into biological inputs. This is how, for example, people and animals recognize threats, which is also genetically heritable. And there are more sophisticated threats than what is perceived. There can be dangerous ideas and thoughts as well, like in mainstream religion, "thought crimes" or Doubt that can send people to hell. This is what is preached by some, anyway.


And also a shared language for describing the world. What I've always found interesting is how other people perceive the world around them and how it differs from how I do. The trust issue is also a factor, but in trivial matters, it isn't really an important one.
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Re: What If God Were A Tree?

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:09 pm

Maia wrote:And also a shared language for describing the world. What I've always found interesting is how other people perceive the world around them and how it differs from how I do. The trust issue is also a factor, but in trivial matters, it isn't really an important one.

Trust is one of the most important qualities of life. Humans are sexually evolved so that trust is innate within our lives and precedes us. Trust is different between man and woman, than it is between man and man, or woman and woman.

In my experiences, I've found that philosophy is one of the most powerful tools for learning the trustworthiness of people. If you confront a person, any stranger, and seriously pose to them "What is God?" it's a confrontation. It's like asking, what is the value of your life? And most people, honestly, don't know. Because their value, they allow others to determine for them, on their behalf. They do not have a value, formed from him or herself. And the rare ones who do, quite often value themselves very poorly. Then you may cross those who value and esteem themselves very highly, and this is rarer. But, people lie, and overvalue themselves, or, undervalue themselves. Yet, what is the accuracy by which life is judged and with accord to whom? Who determines, who judges? It's not so simple, when people are bound together, and forced to confront that fact.

On a philosophy forum, it's a little simpler. All you need to do is ask the right questions, to the right people, at the right time. And they willingly tell you who they are, what they are, and how much they value themselves.
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Re: What If God Were A Tree?

Postby Maia » Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:20 pm

Urwrongx1000 wrote:
Maia wrote:And also a shared language for describing the world. What I've always found interesting is how other people perceive the world around them and how it differs from how I do. The trust issue is also a factor, but in trivial matters, it isn't really an important one.

Trust is one of the most important qualities of life. Humans are sexually evolved so that trust is innate within our lives and precedes us. Trust is different between man and woman, than it is between man and man, or woman and woman.

In my experiences, I've found that philosophy is one of the most powerful tools for learning the trustworthiness of people. If you confront a person, any stranger, and seriously pose to them "What is God?" it's a confrontation. It's like asking, what is the value of your life? And most people, honestly, don't know. Because their value, they allow others to determine for them, on their behalf. They do not have a value, formed from him or herself. And the rare ones who do, quite often value themselves very poorly. Then you may cross those who value and esteem themselves very highly, and this is rarer. But, people lie, and overvalue themselves, or, undervalue themselves. Yet, what is the accuracy by which life is judged and with accord to whom? Who determines, who judges? It's not so simple, when people are bound together, and forced to confront that fact.

On a philosophy forum, it's a little simpler. All you need to do is ask the right questions, to the right people, at the right time. And they willingly tell you who they are, what they are, and how much they value themselves.


I can usually judge the worth of someone after a few seconds of talking, and my opinion rarely changes afterwards. First impressions are always important. Things like tone of voice, and as much what they don't say, as what they do. I might engage them in trivial conversation, but there's always a reason behind it.
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Re: What If God Were A Tree?

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:25 pm

Maia wrote:I can usually judge the worth of someone after a few seconds of talking, and my opinion rarely changes afterwards. First impressions are always important. Things like tone of voice, and as much what they don't say, as what they do. I might engage them in trivial conversation, but there's always a reason behind it.

Sometimes it's wise to show your worst before you show your best.
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Re: What If God Were A Tree?

Postby Maia » Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:35 pm

Urwrongx1000 wrote:
Maia wrote:I can usually judge the worth of someone after a few seconds of talking, and my opinion rarely changes afterwards. First impressions are always important. Things like tone of voice, and as much what they don't say, as what they do. I might engage them in trivial conversation, but there's always a reason behind it.

Sometimes it's wise to show your worst before you show your best.


I think that depends on the situation, and what one hopes to achieve.
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Re: What If God Were A Tree?

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:15 pm

Maia wrote:I think that depends on the situation, and what one hopes to achieve.

So, which gods do you pray to?
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Re: What If God Were A Tree?

Postby Maia » Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:26 pm

Urwrongx1000 wrote:
Maia wrote:I think that depends on the situation, and what one hopes to achieve.

So, which gods do you pray to?


The earth, our universal mother. I wouldn't use the word pray, though. I worship the goddess through my daily rituals.
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Re: What If God Were A Tree?

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:38 pm

Maia wrote:The earth, our universal mother. I wouldn't use the word pray, though. I worship the goddess through my daily rituals.

When I was young, I was indoctrinated with "climate change", along with regular doomsday proposals that are commonplace. However, when I was about 26, I realized that trees have more control over Earth's atmosphere than humans do, even today. Plants dictate Earth's climate, not humanity, that is the common error of so-called "Environmentalists". It's hubris. Of course, this is not to validate or excuse the pollution that humans do propel into the rivers and oceans.
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Re: What If God Were A Tree?

Postby Maia » Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:54 pm

Urwrongx1000 wrote:
Maia wrote:The earth, our universal mother. I wouldn't use the word pray, though. I worship the goddess through my daily rituals.

When I was young, I was indoctrinated with "climate change", along with regular doomsday proposals that are commonplace. However, when I was about 26, I realized that trees have more control over Earth's atmosphere than humans do, even today. Plants dictate Earth's climate, not humanity, that is the common error of so-called "Environmentalists". It's hubris. Of course, this is not to validate or excuse the pollution that humans do propel into the rivers and oceans.


I care deeply about the natural environment and I think that pollution, and what we've done to the earth, is disgusting. I don't believe that climate change is caused by us, though. It's part of a natural cycle. To think that we can change the climate of a planet, is, as you say, just a typical example of human arrogance.
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Re: What If God Were A Tree?

Postby iambiguous » Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:12 pm

Urwrong Because God Told Me wrote: Letters/runes/words are nothing without a mind to shape them into something worthwhile. When good philosophy is conducted, everybody is aware of it, because few can copy the rationality and reasoning required to do it. It's not like any other field of study or area of life. You are responsible for ideas; they can be good or bad, valuable or worthless. Furthermore, the more you dig into philosophy, you quickly wake-up and realize the fact of where/when/whom these ideas came from (ancestors), and how they progressed through history to right now.


Talk about a "general description spiritual contraption".

Apparently he has the mind to shape discussions of God and religion into something "worthwhile". And "you are wrong times a thousand" if your own mind is not entirely in sync with his. His philosophy is "good" and yours is "bad", his philosophy is "valuable" and yours is "worthless" if you don't think as he does. And not just about religion and philosophy. But "politics" too. Take any issue. Dare not to think exactly as he does. See how he reacts.

And yet when I challenge him and his "Coalition of Truth" ilk to bring their "world of words" dogmas down to Earth and focus the discussion in on a particular set of circumstances in connecting the dots existentially between morality here and now and immortality there and then...?

Well, let's see.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: What If God Were A Tree?

Postby felix dakat » Fri Nov 26, 2021 8:22 pm

"connecting the dots existentially between morality here and now and immortality there and then..." Whatever that means. It's your pet contraption with which you measure the value of input from others here. Not only are there as many ways of doing that as there are people to do it hypothetically and without any certainty, there are myriad nonlinear ways of thinking about life, which your pet contraption does not include. Or so it seems to me from my point of view.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: What If God Were A Tree?

Postby iambiguous » Fri Nov 26, 2021 8:45 pm

felix dakat wrote: "connecting the dots existentially between morality here and now and immortality there and then..." Whatever that means.


How hard can it be to grasp it?

You live your life on this side of the grave. And, over and again, you note that given particular situations, people have conflicting moral narratives and political agendas regarding "the right thing to do".

Why is this? Does it revolve more around the arguments I make or the arguments you make? Okay, let's note a context and explore that.

But not you, right? Swoosh! Straight up into the intellectual contraption clouds you go.

Then the part where God and religion -- spirituality -- come into play. Some connect the dots existentially between the right thing to do on this side of the grave and the fate of "I" on the other side of it.

Over time historically and across the globe culturally, millions upon millions upon millions of mere mortals have had no problem at all in grasping it.

But, again, only up in the "world of words" spiritual contraption clouds are you comfortable.

felix dakat wrote: It's your pet contraption with which you measure the value of input from others here.


On the contrary, for the overwhelming preponderance of religious folks out there and in here the "will of God" is the only measure permitted those who connect these dots to Judgment Day. Unless, like Bob and Ierrellus, you scrape that God altogether for a more "follow your own path to Him" Creator. Then God gets to be solely that which brings you yourself the most comfort and consolation.

And I'm still not clear about your own "personal religion" here.

Then [of course] straight back up into the clouds:

felix dakat wrote: Not only are there as many ways of doing that as there are people to do it hypothetically and without any certainty, there are myriad nonlinear ways of thinking about life, which your pet contraption does not include. Or so it seems to me from my point of view.


Well need a context of course.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: What If God Were A Tree?

Postby felix dakat » Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:03 pm

And what in the mind of the moral nihilist, the Dasein that is you, for whom all is putatively morally relative, is wrong with "the clouds" that you must (another moral term) your morality on it?
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: What If God Were A Tree?

Postby iambiguous » Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:10 pm

felix dakat wrote:And what in the mind of the moral nihilist, the Dasein that is you, for whom all is putatively morally relative, is wrong with "the clouds" that you must (another moral term) your morality on it?


Once again, you completely ignore the points I actually raise in order to make it all about me.

Though, sure, if you are convinced that morality is not relative, that re God and religion or one or another secular equivalent, morally may well be objective, by all means, stay up in the clouds in order to pin down your own theoretical assessment of that.




Note to pood:

Help him out here, okay?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: What If God Were A Tree?

Postby pood » Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:46 pm

Maia wrote:
Urwrongx1000 wrote:
Maia wrote:The earth, our universal mother. I wouldn't use the word pray, though. I worship the goddess through my daily rituals.

When I was young, I was indoctrinated with "climate change", along with regular doomsday proposals that are commonplace. However, when I was about 26, I realized that trees have more control over Earth's atmosphere than humans do, even today. Plants dictate Earth's climate, not humanity, that is the common error of so-called "Environmentalists". It's hubris. Of course, this is not to validate or excuse the pollution that humans do propel into the rivers and oceans.


I care deeply about the natural environment and I think that pollution, and what we've done to the earth, is disgusting. I don't believe that climate change is caused by us, though. It's part of a natural cycle. To think that we can change the climate of a planet, is, as you say, just a typical example of human arrogance.


All organisms throughout history have been modifying their local environments and the global climate. The original great climate change was filling the atmosphere with oxygen. This was done by mere microbes producing oxygen through photosynthesis.

Current climate change is indeed part of a natural cycle, as you say. That natural cycle is called anthropogenic. Humans are causing climate change because, as you well know being a Pagan, humans are part of and not separate from nature. We are the current specific vector for climate change, as the photosynthesizing microorganisms were the specific vector for climate change eons ago.

It is not arrogant to think that humans can change the climate of the planet. If I may be so bold as to suggest, it is arrogant to think the opposite. To think the opposite, is to suggest that humans are somehow separate from nature, and I know you don’t think this.

To be blunt about it, human-caused climate change is no longer a matter of opinion. It is a matter of fact. We know exactly how it has happened, how it is happening, and how it will continue to happen. It is because we are dumping vast reserves of carbon dioxide into the air that was previously locked up in the ground. We are doing this. Nothing and no one else. We are. We, and we alone.

We have been doing it since the first oil well was drilled in Titusville, Pennsylvania, in 1859, the year in which Origin of the Species first appeared. The buildup since then of carbon in the atmosphere tracks so closely with rising average temperatures since then that there can be no scientific doubt that we are driving climate change.

We know this because we know that carbon dioxide traps heat. So does water vapor. But unlike water vapor, which leaves the atmosphere via rain, carbon dioxide stays in the atmosphere for tens of thousands of years. There is no such thing as carbon dioxide rain.

Science made the first prediction of human-induced climate change in 1896. There is nothing new here. It is just becoming obvious.

Humans, a natural part of Gaia, are changing Gaia. Gaia will fight back by expelling humans if and when the damage we are inflicting becomes too great for Mother Earth to tolerate. This may happen because as the Arctic and tundra regions melt due to human-induced climate change, which they observably and indisputably are, sequestered concentrations of methane hydrates will be released into the atmosphere. This is already happening. It is observed and documented. When methane hydrate release becomes general, the game will be well and truly up for mankind, because methane hydrates are ten times more heat-trapping than carbon dioxide.
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