An argument for God's existence

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Re: An argument for God's existence

Postby Certainly real » Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:30 am

Ecmandu wrote:CR,

I was given all the powers of existence to test this current plan. It doesn’t work.

When there is ANY zero sum scenario, existence is just a big pool to eventually send everyone to hell forever.

It’s not fucking funny dude.


I think Existence Is Perfect because Its rejection is paradoxical. I think you think existence is imperfect because the current plan doesn't work.
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Re: An argument for God's existence

Postby Ecmandu » Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:40 am

Certainly real wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:CR,

I was given all the powers of existence to test this current plan. It doesn’t work.

When there is ANY zero sum scenario, existence is just a big pool to eventually send everyone to hell forever.

It’s not fucking funny dude.


I think Existence Is Perfect because Its rejection is paradoxical. I think you think existence is imperfect because the current plan doesn't work.


Living forever is not the definition of perfection.

Eternal life is a joke, and it’s necessary.

The question is how eternal life is lived.
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Re: An argument for God's existence

Postby Bob » Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:07 am

Certainly real wrote:
Bob wrote:I think we're moving in circles.


I am trying to move with what you are giving me. You appear to make a distinction between God and Existence. I want to see your reasoning regarding this. So do you believe God and Existence to be the same, or do you think God and Existence are not the same? If you do not think them to be the same, given the fact that Existence exists, do you think Existence to be non-omnipresent?

I exist. It is an experiencing of something happening. It is the reason I experience anything.
The reason I exist and experience is, as far as I can tell, God.

What bugs most people, even if they wouldn't use as many words, is the fact that they experience themselves clearly as part of the biosphere of this planet. We breathe the air, we drink the water, we eat animals and plants. Then there is the part of us that transcends that and we try to pretend that we could be different. We become vegetarian, we join some sect or something, we believe some idea of not being of this world but having been dumped here - anything that could suggest that we are better than nature. That is because we pervert nature in some of the things we do and cause problems. That can't be bad, we tell ourselves, it just shows how advanced we are.

I have looked at experience and decided that, for some reason, sentient life was always planned in this other wise dangerous universe. I tell myself that it must have a reason, because we need things to be the way they are for a reason. The Bible is a source that suggests a reason and, because it is the best source I have, I accept that the ancients were on to something - but you have to learn to read it as they wrote it. You have to follow their meaning. That is my task today - to find out what they meant when they wrote their myths.
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
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Re: An argument for God's existence

Postby Fanman » Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:59 am

Certainly real,

I think that you have to accept that, because of the scope of your argument and the fact that you can only apply logic to make your case, that at best you can demonstrate a solid opinion. I disagree with you because we perceive things differently. I do not believe that people will agree that you are right about something of this scale unless you can present facts and/or an unequivocal case. From my perspective, you haven’t done that. But thank you for the discussion.

In relation to your question, I have already answered it in what I've said to you.
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Re: An argument for God's existence

Postby Certainly real » Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:42 pm

Bob wrote:
Certainly real wrote:
Bob wrote:I think we're moving in circles.


I am trying to move with what you are giving me. You appear to make a distinction between God and Existence. I want to see your reasoning regarding this. So do you believe God and Existence to be the same, or do you think God and Existence are not the same? If you do not think them to be the same, given the fact that Existence exists, do you think Existence to be non-omnipresent?

I exist. It is an experiencing of something happening. It is the reason I experience anything.
The reason I exist and experience is, as far as I can tell, God.

What bugs most people, even if they wouldn't use as many words, is the fact that they experience themselves clearly as part of the biosphere of this planet. We breathe the air, we drink the water, we eat animals and plants. Then there is the part of us that transcends that and we try to pretend that we could be different. We become vegetarian, we join some sect or something, we believe some idea of not being of this world but having been dumped here - anything that could suggest that we are better than nature. That is because we pervert nature in some of the things we do and cause problems. That can't be bad, we tell ourselves, it just shows how advanced we are.

I have looked at experience and decided that, for some reason, sentient life was always planned in this other wise dangerous universe. I tell myself that it must have a reason, because we need things to be the way they are for a reason. The Bible is a source that suggests a reason and, because it is the best source I have, I accept that the ancients were on to something - but you have to learn to read it as they wrote it. You have to follow their meaning. That is my task today - to find out what they meant when they wrote their myths.


I think religion is incredibly valuable. It's like a shortcut that requires sincerity to God/Truth/Goodness/Perfection to draw benefit from. But the benefits that can be drawn from it are immense. It reminds us that God Is God/Perfect and that we are not God, and that we should strive in the cause of God/Perfection, so that we can become truly in awe of God/Existence/Perfection. This is what's good for us. This is what's right for us if we seek goodness. On the other hand, if we seek to be in opposition to God/Perfection, and instead serve and strive in the cause of an imperfect being/existence (sacrificing the Perfect Existence/Being in the process, as opposed to sacrificing ourselves to/for It...let's not forget our original sin) then we will surely become losers. Losers of goodness. Pathetic, disgraceful, and evil. Good for one thing. Retribution/Vengeance/Punishment (the purpose of Hell).

It takes evil to strive in the cause of an imperfect existence instead of the Perfect Existence/Being. It takes evil to ignore, forgive, or show mercy to unrepentant evil. God is not evil. Existence is not imperfect. This is why Hell is not sugar coated in religion. People need to know what it is that they are choosing/consenting to when they unrepentantly choose to be evil whilst knowing what evil is.

I am still unclear as to where you stand on the following:

Existence = God = the Omnipresent. Agree or disagree?
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Re: An argument for God's existence

Postby Certainly real » Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:52 pm

Fanman wrote:Certainly real,

I think that you have to accept that, because of the scope of your argument and the fact that you can only apply logic to make your case, that at best you can demonstrate a solid opinion. I disagree with you because we perceive things differently. I do not believe that people will agree that you are right about something of this scale unless you can present facts and/or an unequivocal case. From my perspective, you haven’t done that. But thank you for the discussion.

In relation to your question, I have already answered it in what I've said to you.


If you seek to discuss this no longer, then that is your choice and I will not engage you where you do not engage me. But I repeat, a paradox/contradiction/absurdity should be treated as a paradox/contradiction/absurdity. A paradoxical/absurd answer, is not a good answer. It's a bad/wrong/unreasonable/irrational answer.

If rejecting triangles being three sided is paradoxical, then one must not reject triangles as being three sided. These are the dictates of pure reason.
If rejecting Existence as being Infinite and Perfect is paradoxical, then one must not reject Existence as being Infinite and Perfect. These are the dictates of pure reason.

The question is, is it paradoxical to reject triangles as being three sided?
The question is, is it paradoxical to reject Existence as being Infinite and Perfect?

I believe that I have logically/rationally/semantically/meaningfully shown that the answer to both the above questions, is yes. You either believe that I have not done this, or you believe that I have done this. If you believe that I have done this, then surely you ought to be acknowledging triangles as being three-sided and Existence as being Infinite and Perfect.

It does not matter what the scope of x is. If rejection of x is paradoxical, then x must be acknowledged as being true. x = triangles have three sides. x cannot be logically/meaningfully/reasonably/rationally rejected, therefore, x is true

x = Existence Is Perfect and Infinite. x cannot be logically/meaningfully/reasonably/rationally rejected, therefore, x is true.
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Re: An argument for God's existence

Postby Bob » Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:25 pm

Certainly real wrote: I think religion is incredibly valuable. It's like a shortcut that requires sincerity to God/Truth/Goodness/Perfection to draw benefit from. But the benefits that can be drawn from it are immense. It reminds us that God Is God/Perfect and that we are not God, and that we should strive in the cause of God/Perfection, so that we can become truly in awe of God/Existence/Perfection. This is what's good for us. This is what's right for us if we seek goodness. On the other hand, if we seek to be in opposition to God/Perfection, and instead serve and strive in the cause of an imperfect being/existence (sacrificing the Perfect Existence/Being in the process, as opposed to sacrificing ourselves to/for It...let's not forget our original sin) then we will surely become losers. Losers of goodness. Pathetic, disgraceful, and evil. Good for one thing. Retribution/Vengeance/Punishment (the purpose of Hell).

The Bible sees us as inherently good but perverted by our desires. That is, there is a flaw in us that prevents us doing what we would like to believe we are doing all the time. It isn’t as though we don’t think about good things and want to do them, but somehow, we trip up on the way. Sometimes, we even ruin the good we have done. This is called “missing the mark” (sin) in the Bible. It is a problem that ruins our high-minded ideas of ourselves being fact.

Hell, in the biblical cosmology, is the rubbish dump. It is where useless things end up. God says, that can’t be what you want. The solution to the problem is to acknowledge the fact and agree to a solution that God has given. If it feels awkward, too easy for us, then you have the right attitude. It is too easy really, but we are asked to remember this regularly and live as best we can according to the law of love that Christ lays down in the Gospel. Remembering that we are flawed, we shouldn’t hold it against other people either.

It takes evil to strive in the cause of an imperfect existence instead of the Perfect Existence/Being. It takes evil to ignore, forgive, or show mercy to unrepentant evil. God is not evil. Existence is not imperfect. This is why Hell is not sugar coated in religion. People need to know what it is that they are choosing/consenting to when they unrepentantly choose to be evil whilst knowing what evil is.

Evil is really the persistent disregard for life and with it the assumption that one has his life in his own hands. Evil is normally bad things that happen to us and others, the intention of which remains lost to us. Evil is the opposite to love, in intention and deed.

I am still unclear as to where you stand on the following:
Existence = God = the Omnipresent. Agree or disagree?

I don’t know why you keep coming back to this. I have explained to you as best I can that God in my cosmology is the Ground of Being, the cause of existence if you like. I don’t equate God with existence.
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
TS Eliot
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Re: An argument for God's existence

Postby iambiguous » Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:56 pm

Just a reminder that, in regard to exchanges like this...

Bob wrote:
Certainly real wrote: I think religion is incredibly valuable. It's like a shortcut that requires sincerity to God/Truth/Goodness/Perfection to draw benefit from. But the benefits that can be drawn from it are immense. It reminds us that God Is God/Perfect and that we are not God, and that we should strive in the cause of God/Perfection, so that we can become truly in awe of God/Existence/Perfection. This is what's good for us. This is what's right for us if we seek goodness. On the other hand, if we seek to be in opposition to God/Perfection, and instead serve and strive in the cause of an imperfect being/existence (sacrificing the Perfect Existence/Being in the process, as opposed to sacrificing ourselves to/for It...let's not forget our original sin) then we will surely become losers. Losers of goodness. Pathetic, disgraceful, and evil. Good for one thing. Retribution/Vengeance/Punishment (the purpose of Hell).

The Bible sees us as inherently good but perverted by our desires. That is, there is a flaw in us that prevents us doing what we would like to believe we are doing all the time. It isn’t as though we don’t think about good things and want to do them, but somehow, we trip up on the way. Sometimes, we even ruin the good we have done. This is called “missing the mark” (sin) in the Bible. It is a problem that ruins our high-minded ideas of ourselves being fact.

Hell, in the biblical cosmology, is the rubbish dump. It is where useless things end up. God says, that can’t be what you want. The solution to the problem is to acknowledge the fact and agree to a solution that God has given. If it feels awkward, too easy for us, then you have the right attitude. It is too easy really, but we are asked to remember this regularly and live as best we can according to the law of love that Christ lays down in the Gospel. Remembering that we are flawed, we shouldn’t hold it against other people either.

It takes evil to strive in the cause of an imperfect existence instead of the Perfect Existence/Being. It takes evil to ignore, forgive, or show mercy to unrepentant evil. God is not evil. Existence is not imperfect. This is why Hell is not sugar coated in religion. People need to know what it is that they are choosing/consenting to when they unrepentantly choose to be evil whilst knowing what evil is.

Evil is really the persistent disregard for life and with it the assumption that one has his life in his own hands. Evil is normally bad things that happen to us and others, the intention of which remains lost to us. Evil is the opposite to love, in intention and deed.

I am still unclear as to where you stand on the following:
Existence = God = the Omnipresent. Agree or disagree?

I don’t know why you keep coming back to this. I have explained to you as best I can that God in my cosmology is the Ground of Being, the cause of existence if you like. I don’t equate God with existence.


...none of the points focused in on ever pertain to actual human interactions in which there are conflicting accounts -- both God and No God -- of that which is said to constitute good and evil. Of behaviors that are said to be "flawed".

It's basically just an exchange of "spiritual paths" that are defined and defended wholly in a world of words.

While I contend that with morality here and now and immortality there and then at stake, God and religion are either brought down to Earth or they revolve more around merely sustaining a psychologically comforting and consoling "peace of mind".

And I believe it is important to note this if only to prompt those who choose this path to go deeper in thinking through their own leaps of faith.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: An argument for God's existence

Postby Meno_ » Sun Jan 24, 2021 1:05 am

Anthropomorphically , parenthood extends into higher forms of specie interaction. The alpha of the singular has connection with the omega of critical reasoning.

The reasoning has an allegorical equivalent, as does the perfect circle of the gold coin is connected to the double helix sign of the infinite


The memory lapses from the beggining infinitude to the ending infinitude, as memory wants to be inclusive.

Inclusion is tatntamount to the filial progression of sub-speciae.

Therefore, the anthroporphical allegory strives toward perfection, as a built-in design


Why? Because imitation of art, reduces to physical manifestation of the mimic in chimps.


Imitation is endemically anthropomorphic, and fatherhood becomes formatted on various symbolic levels.

You can not bring such feigns down to the reality consisting of broken homes, unwed single mothers, incest, and family crime.

Unfortunately these moral gudidence come with a price, that is taught along the way, by fathers of the church, and, ultimetalyfrom God Himself, which inhabit those outsider the temple of God, as well within the tiny bodies of those yet unformed,.
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Re: An argument for God's existence

Postby Bob » Sun Jan 24, 2021 10:16 am

iambiguous wrote:...none of the points focused in on ever pertain to actual human interactions in which there are conflicting accounts -- both God and No God -- of that which is said to constitute good and evil. Of behaviors that are said to be "flawed".

It's basically just an exchange of "spiritual paths" that are defined and defended wholly in a world of words.

While I contend that with morality here and now and immortality there and then at stake, God and religion are either brought down to Earth or they revolve more around merely sustaining a psychologically comforting and consoling "peace of mind".

And I believe it is important to note this if only to prompt those who choose this path to go deeper in thinking through their own leaps of faith.

In this materialistic time, we have a requirement that everything “matters”, that is, it must be “down to earth” and graspable. The fact that all problems arise in the mind is generally overlooked. The fact that answers to these problems will also arise in the mind would then seem straightforward. It is the mind of mankind that makes the most problems, leads to murder, theft and oppression on a large scale, but it also is what can be enlightened and bring people together to care, share and look out for each other. The struggle that nature put us through made us stronger, something which is waning quickly. For a long time, this struggle was expanded to include tribal and nationalistic conflicts, which only made life more difficult.

It is not surprising that people all around the planet took these experiences and tried to make sense of them, in order to transcend them. They used various methods to listen out, to try and hear what life is telling us. They heard wisdom which they wrote down. They came to realise that they were being spoken to, and whoever it was, it wasn’t nature. It wasn’t their own minds either, because they noticed that they found themselves in conflict with what they heard. But how to pass this on? How can human beings be informed in a time when there was no idea of what would one day become science. Mythology was found to be the most effective for carrying the voice of who they called God. Stories that described how mankind could be led to prosperity and well-being in a world full of conflict and struggle were told.

We have moved on in some ways and psychology seems to draw on these traditions intuitively – perhaps without noticing. Professionals like C.G. Jung and Jordan Peterson have noticed how deep the early biblical stories were. Others have discovered that traditions across the world have more to tell us than we had thought. In some ways we are re-discovering ancient texts as a source of wisdom that can help us in life. Other people are reading them from a materialistic mind-set and imagining angels and demons that have material bodies. Stories are taken literally instead of symbolically and the voice, the whisper that these stories contain are overheard.

The message is between the lines. It is the inspiration that we cannot locate. It is the dream, the vision and intuition. It is heard in silence, in solitude but also suddenly in the middle of a crowd. But it is real and has real implications. It just isn’t something we can demand, but something we have to ask for. If we don’t ask, don’t knock humbly at the door, it is gone. It is the city on the hill and the light in the darkness. It is the destination of a journey, which we must undertake spiritually.

Yes, it is in words. No, it isn’t only words, but meaning and wisdom. Living in honour of these things can help us forward. Humility is the mindset by which we best fare.
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
TS Eliot
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Re: An argument for God's existence

Postby Certainly real » Tue Jan 26, 2021 6:19 pm

Bob wrote:I don’t equate God with existence.


I don't understand how one can view Existence as not being Omnipresent. I don't understand how there can be more than one Omnipresent thing/being/entity.

So if one believes God to be Omnipresent, then surely one believes God = Existence. Alternatively, one believes there can be more than one Omnipresent thing/being/entity, but that would be contradictory as you cannot have two separate things/beings/entities be present everywhere because you cannot have two everywheres for it to make possible for two different beings to be everywhere. There is 1 everywhere, and only one thing/being/entity is everywhere. God/Existence. I am not Existence/God. I exist because of Existence/God. I exist because God/Existence exists.
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Re: An argument for God's existence

Postby iambiguous » Tue Jan 26, 2021 8:31 pm

Bob wrote:
iambiguous wrote:...none of the points focused in on ever pertain to actual human interactions in which there are conflicting accounts -- both God and No God -- of that which is said to constitute good and evil. Of behaviors that are said to be "flawed".

It's basically just an exchange of "spiritual paths" that are defined and defended wholly in a world of words.

While I contend that with morality here and now and immortality there and then at stake, God and religion are either brought down to Earth or they revolve more around merely sustaining a psychologically comforting and consoling "peace of mind".

And I believe it is important to note this if only to prompt those who choose this path to go deeper in thinking through their own leaps of faith.

In this materialistic time, we have a requirement that everything “matters”, that is, it must be “down to earth” and graspable. The fact that all problems arise in the mind is generally overlooked. The fact that answers to these problems will also arise in the mind would then seem straightforward. It is the mind of mankind that makes the most problems, leads to murder, theft and oppression on a large scale, but it also is what can be enlightened and bring people together to care, share and look out for each other. The struggle that nature put us through made us stronger, something which is waning quickly. For a long time, this struggle was expanded to include tribal and nationalistic conflicts, which only made life more difficult.

It is not surprising that people all around the planet took these experiences and tried to make sense of them, in order to transcend them. They used various methods to listen out, to try and hear what life is telling us. They heard wisdom which they wrote down. They came to realise that they were being spoken to, and whoever it was, it wasn’t nature. It wasn’t their own minds either, because they noticed that they found themselves in conflict with what they heard. But how to pass this on? How can human beings be informed in a time when there was no idea of what would one day become science. Mythology was found to be the most effective for carrying the voice of who they called God. Stories that described how mankind could be led to prosperity and well-being in a world full of conflict and struggle were told.

We have moved on in some ways and psychology seems to draw on these traditions intuitively – perhaps without noticing. Professionals like C.G. Jung and Jordan Peterson have noticed how deep the early biblical stories were. Others have discovered that traditions across the world have more to tell us than we had thought. In some ways we are re-discovering ancient texts as a source of wisdom that can help us in life. Other people are reading them from a materialistic mind-set and imagining angels and demons that have material bodies. Stories are taken literally instead of symbolically and the voice, the whisper that these stories contain are overheard.

The message is between the lines. It is the inspiration that we cannot locate. It is the dream, the vision and intuition. It is heard in silence, in solitude but also suddenly in the middle of a crowd. But it is real and has real implications. It just isn’t something we can demand, but something we have to ask for. If we don’t ask, don’t knock humbly at the door, it is gone. It is the city on the hill and the light in the darkness. It is the destination of a journey, which we must undertake spiritually.

Yes, it is in words. No, it isn’t only words, but meaning and wisdom. Living in honour of these things can help us forward. Humility is the mindset by which we best fare.


Again, what is this but another "general description spiritual contraption" that hundreds of true believers on one or another [more or less conflicting] denominational path can think and feel in order to sustain an overall sense of feeling comforted and consoled.

"Meaning and wisdom" when faced with what particular choice in regard to what particular conflicting good in what particular set of circumstances where the consequences of that choice can bring pain to some and pleasure to others. And where there either is or is not a God/the God judging our behaviors on this side of the grave so as to establish our fate for all of eternity on the other side of it.

And, historically, if that is not the existential point of religion, then what on Earth is it?

That is why in regard to religious convictions the more orthodox communities seem to get that part of it. A place for everyone in God's Kingdom and everyone had better damn well be in that place come Judgment Day.

As for "materialism" tell that to the bill collector or the landlord. Tell that to those who own and operate the global economy. See if your more "spiritual" trajectory finally begins to sink in.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: An argument for God's existence

Postby Bob » Wed Jan 27, 2021 8:40 am

iambiguous wrote:Again, what is this but another "general description spiritual contraption" that hundreds of true believers on one or another [more or less conflicting] denominational path can think and feel in order to sustain an overall sense of feeling comforted and consoled.

"Meaning and wisdom" when faced with what particular choice in regard to what particular conflicting good in what particular set of circumstances where the consequences of that choice can bring pain to some and pleasure to others. And where there either is or is not a God/the God judging our behaviors on this side of the grave so as to establish our fate for all of eternity on the other side of it.

And, historically, if that is not the existential point of religion, then what on Earth is it?

That is why in regard to religious convictions the more orthodox communities seem to get that part of it. A place for everyone in God's Kingdom and everyone had better damn well be in that place come Judgment Day.

As for "materialism" tell that to the bill collector or the landlord. Tell that to those who own and operate the global economy. See if your more "spiritual" trajectory finally begins to sink in.

As I said before, I can't help you. I can only react to what you criticise in my way. What I conceive of as being wrong I point out. If you don't need or want that, okay.
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
TS Eliot
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Re: An argument for God's existence

Postby promethean75 » Wed Jan 27, 2021 12:36 pm

Peterson is not only a rambling clown, but also a grave danger to the younger, philosophically interested generations who are becoming more inclined toward atheism and leftism... something critically necessary for abolishing capitalism (two hundred years too late).

Here's Harris again on stage making a clown out of Peterson: https://youtu.be/EHQv1prRCp8

As a side note I recently found this horrible website with real videos of cartel/ISIS executions, beheadings and dismemberment. As I watched this teenage Hispanic girl taken into the woods and dismembered/beheaded, I wonder how anyone could believe in God.

Wanna see it? I can give you the links. Or how about the Zetas executions? Wanna see that one? First he just touches the chainsaw blade to his neck to open the artery... then he waits a second, and cuts the head off. The guy sitting beside him tries not to look as he spattered with the other guys blood. Then it's his turn. He's not lucky enough to get the chainsaw. They cut his head off with a knife.
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Re: An argument for God's existence

Postby promethean75 » Wed Jan 27, 2021 12:43 pm

... oh shit I forgot about the one where the cartel cuts open the chest of the guy as he lays there screaming, pulls his heart out, and takes a bite of it. You can see his lungs expand and contract inside his chest cavity as this guy continues sawing him open. They're laughing and joking as they record all this.
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Re: An argument for God's existence

Postby Bob » Wed Jan 27, 2021 1:08 pm

promethean75 wrote:Peterson is not only a rambling clown, but also a grave danger to the younger, philosophically interested generations who are becoming more inclined toward atheism and leftism... something critically necessary for abolishing capitalism (two hundred years too late).

Here's Harris again on stage making a clown out of Peterson: https://youtu.be/EHQv1prRCp8

As a side note I recently found this horrible website with real videos of cartel/ISIS executions, beheadings and dismemberment. As I watched this teenage Hispanic girl taken into the woods and dismembered/beheaded, I wonder how anyone could believe in God.

Wanna see it? I can give you the links. Or how about the Zetas executions? Wanna see that one? First he just touches the chainsaw blade to his neck to open the artery... then he waits a second, and cuts the head off. The guy sitting beside him tries not to look as he spattered with the other guys blood. Then it's his turn. He's not lucky enough to get the chainsaw. They cut his head off with a knife.

I think that the atrocities that you have mentioned are incomparable to those of the past. At least they are now committed less. The fact that humans have always been able to perpetrate such horrors isn’t an argument against God, it is an argument against Mankind. Having said that, some of the attempts to describe God are particularly naïve and childish, so I can see your point.

The Bible has always described the spiritual journey as one passing through the horrors that mankind has perpetrated, facing up to the brutality that spiritual people a faced with. History has shown that the most godly of souls have been treated barbarously. Does that mean that we should give up all hope and just dive in? Instead, these people serve as lights in the darkness. They have caused people to see how wrong they have acted and change their behaviour in ways that no intellectual could ever do.

You say that Peterson is a danger to people inclined to atheism and leftism and inclined to abolish capitalism, but I see him rather as someone who just shows how things work, often contradicting the common opinion. He points to the mistakes people have made in the past, whether in Nazi Germany, Russia or China, to name but a few. The lesson from the French revolution, that the revolution eats its children, was never learned and Solzhenitsyn showed how that worked out in Russia. The fact is that all attempts to abolish capitalism, wherever, ended up with tens of millions dead. He reads history correctly as far as I can make out. The twentieth century was indeed the logical result of throwing out religion without replacing it with something substantial.

The society that young leftist people today criticise is not perfect in any way, but it has been better than the Molech that revolution has set loose in the past. The bigger the ideology the bigger the treat. Of course, religion can turn into an ideology, and has in certain places in the world. Where that happens it isn’t good to look at.
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Re: An argument for God's existence

Postby promethean75 » Wed Jan 27, 2021 2:00 pm

"The fact that humans have always been able to perpetrate such horrors isn’t an argument against God, it is an argument against Mankind."

Any alleged philosophical refutation of the arguments against a benevolent god (see 'the problem of evil' handled by Bertrand Russell), if granted, would still make no sense because of the impossibility of freewill (if a/this god exists). In the end there is no way to reconcile, redeem, justify or make meaningful, such atrocious human behavior.

But you need not even try to understand any of what I explain here to find how quickly all that justification loses currency as you watch one of these videos. There is no excuse for this shit and 'god' explains nothing here.
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Re: An argument for God's existence

Postby promethean75 » Wed Jan 27, 2021 2:11 pm

Dude I'm so shook up by what I saw in these videos I cant even post. I have been paralyzed for two days. Yesterday I cried in the shower. Real shit, and i ain't ashamed to say it. I cant believe what i saw man. Its one thing to just know it happens, but quite another to actually see it. Seeing it changes everything, and if you are not profoundly moved by this shit, you've tricked yourself into thinking its permissible... its merely a mistake of human nature and design... it serves a purpose in the grand scheme, yada yada.

Bullshit.
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Re: An argument for God's existence

Postby promethean75 » Wed Jan 27, 2021 2:23 pm

A vietnamese road worker lies on the road cut in half by some accident. Regular day, folks walking around. A few stop to catch it in camera. He's still alive. His lower half from the waist down is beside him, and he turns his head to see it. Then he realizes what's happened. He starts fiddling with the skin at his waistline as if he were trying to pull it down over his intestines. He raises his head, looks down at his stomach, drops his head with a thump, and puts his arms over his face. People are watching and chatting as he slowly dies. But you see it on his face. There is no making sense of how absurd this is.
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Re: An argument for God's existence

Postby phyllo » Wed Jan 27, 2021 2:46 pm

Why do you go on about this?
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Re: An argument for God's existence

Postby Bob » Wed Jan 27, 2021 3:02 pm

promethean75 wrote:There is no excuse for this shit and 'god' explains nothing here.

Well stop watching and stop trying to comment on a discussion whilst you are in such a state.
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Re: An argument for God's existence

Postby promethean75 » Wed Jan 27, 2021 3:11 pm

Before seeing the videos I was merely baffled by people who still talk of 'god'. But after seeing them I am absolutely offended by people who still talk of 'god'.

My bad though. Shouldn't have said nuthin. Ya'll do your thing.
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Re: An argument for God's existence

Postby iambiguous » Wed Jan 27, 2021 6:21 pm

Bob wrote:
iambiguous wrote:Again, what is this but another "general description spiritual contraption" that hundreds of true believers on one or another [more or less conflicting] denominational path can think and feel in order to sustain an overall sense of feeling comforted and consoled.

"Meaning and wisdom" when faced with what particular choice in regard to what particular conflicting good in what particular set of circumstances where the consequences of that choice can bring pain to some and pleasure to others. And where there either is or is not a God/the God judging our behaviors on this side of the grave so as to establish our fate for all of eternity on the other side of it.

And, historically, if that is not the existential point of religion, then what on Earth is it?

That is why in regard to religious convictions the more orthodox communities seem to get that part of it. A place for everyone in God's Kingdom and everyone had better damn well be in that place come Judgment Day.

As for "materialism" tell that to the bill collector or the landlord. Tell that to those who own and operate the global economy. See if your more "spiritual" trajectory finally begins to sink in.

As I said before, I can't help you. I can only react to what you criticise in my way. What I conceive of as being wrong I point out. If you don't need or want that, okay.


The only way in which you could truly help me is to think through your "general description spiritual" assessment of God and religion above so as to address the points I make in regard to connecting the dots between morality here and now and immortality there and then.

As long as that is at stake, how on earth is an intelligent man or woman expected to react to those who don't or won't bring their own comforting and consoling spiritual assumptions out into the world of actual human interactions in which there are hundreds and hundreds of spiritual paths that, depending on a particular moral conflagration in a particular set of circumstances, insist that immortality and salvation is embedded entirely in the path that they have chosen.

Your path is merely a lot less constricting and "orthodox".

Again, I don't doubt your intelligence and the level of introspective commitment you've put into probing this in regard to your own life. And, yes, my reaction is still as much one of chagrin that I can no longer think and feel like this myself.

But there either are or are not those on one or another spiritual path willing to dig down deeper into the points I raise above and come up with something -- anything -- that might allow me to yank myself up out of the hole "I" am in here.

All I can do is to keep looking for one.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: An argument for God's existence

Postby phyllo » Wed Jan 27, 2021 6:39 pm

The only way in which you could truly help me is to think through your "general description spiritual" assessment of God and religion above so as to address the points I make in regard to connecting the dots between morality here and now and immortality there and then.
How do you know that's the only way to help you?
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Re: An argument for God's existence

Postby iambiguous » Wed Jan 27, 2021 6:55 pm

Bob wrote:. The fact that humans have always been able to perpetrate such horrors isn’t an argument against God, it is an argument against Mankind.


Come on, even if you attribute these horrors to "mankind", what about the ones embedded in natural disasters and extinction events here on planet Earth?

Did humankind bring about the existence of the HIV or the Covid virus?

Just Google "deadly diseases": https://www.google.com/search?source=hp ... ent=psy-ab

And while any number of religious folks will insist that abortion is a Sin against God, what about miscarriages?

"The new report found that in 2010, both the pregnancy rate and abortion rate fell to record lows since 1976. Miscarriages and abortions also evened out; of the pregnancies in 2010, 65% resulted in live births, 17% were miscarried and 18% ended in abortion." Time

Aren't miscarriages basically God's own abortions? In the U.S. alone almost 25,000 babies a year are stillborn. And then there is Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SIDS).

phyllo wrote:Why do you go on about this?


Probably because like many of us, he is very much aware of all the terrible human suffering that exists around the globe day in and day out. And with so little that we can do about it as individuals, God becomes a way in which to react to it one person at a time.

But his point also revolves more around the assumption that much of this terrible pain and suffering is as a result of the capitalist political economy. And one of the reasons that those who would like to bring it crashing down are not successful is because so many millions and millions of mere mortals are hooked on one or another God promising one or another salvation on the other side of the grave.

The whole, "religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people" narrative that Marx suggested.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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