Gnosticism.

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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby MagsJ » Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:07 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:Hindu Trinidadians? There are few. They are also mostly Catholics.

T&T has approximately 40% Indian and 40% African ancestry, and 21.6 percent of Trinidadians are Roman Catholic, 18.2 percent Hindu, 5 percent Muslim, and 1.5 percent Jehovah's Witnesses.

Pedro I Rengel wrote:
MagsJ wrote:A Catholic church that is not affiliated with Rome and the Vatican is called a Catholic church.. a Catholic church that is affiliated with Rome and the Vatican is called a Roman Catholic church..
OK point me to one Catholic church that is not affiliated to the Vatican?

All Catholic diocese are in communion with the pope, but they are not all members of the Roman rite, so they are not Roman Catholic. A Roman Catholic is a Catholic who is a member of the Roman rite.. which is most of the Catholics in the Western world. The Roman rite differs from the Eastern European rites, only in local customs that are different among them.

Pedro I Rengel wrote:
MagsJ wrote:Where would my Indian relatives/grand-parents really be from, if not India? :lol: da f, Perdro.. what gives?
I was just pointing out that local pagan customs in India are iconic, they worship idols. I wasn't putting your story in question, just pointing out the relationship.

Ancient Indians were pagans.. it’s the newer lineages that brought in the influx of religious beliefs and idolatry. My Indian fam are not Hindu, Vedic, Buddhist, etc., but of local Custom and concern.. the original pre-religion way, of existing.





Pedro I Rengel wrote:
Pedro I Rengel wrote:Hindu Trinidadians? There are few. They are also mostly Catholics.


When I say "few," I mean "if any," giving you the benefit of the doubt that in recent times some may have converted or some immigrants from India may have brought it with them.





Pedro I Rengel wrote:You know what? I may have gotten confused here. You probably meant a Hindu doctrine and not people from Trinidad and Tobago.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:39 pm

MagsJ wrote:T&T has approximately 40% Indian and 40% African ancestry, and 21.6 percent of Trinidadians are Roman Catholic, 18.2 percent Hindu, 5 percent Muslim, and 1.5 percent Jehovah's Witnesses.


OK I googled this and you're right. It's recent, though, as of 1845. And the Hindu population must still be fairly isolated from the rest, as I had never even heard of it before now. I even have Trinitarians in my family (married into).

MagsJ wrote:All Catholic diocese are in communion with the pope, but they are not all members of the Roman rite


Again, find me one.

MagsJ wrote:Ancient Indians were pagans..


You seem to have this idea that pagans don't worship idols. In fact it is one thing that distinguishes them. Pagan doesn't even mean anything other than not Christian but religious.

And yeah, people in India are not an exception. Local pagan customs include idols that are worshiped. It's meditation and things like that that were made up by Yogis and religious scholars, and introduced through the educated classes of India.
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:40 pm

There is no "pre-religion." As far back as there is evidence of humans, there is evidence of religion. There is only "pre-atheism."
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:42 pm

In fact, there is almost no separation, in any case, between local custom and religion.

Only when one of these evil totalitarian ones, like Christianity or Budism (not Hinduism, which is a syncretism of the almost endlessly old Indian religion), is imposed on a population, do the local customs stray from official religion.
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby MagsJ » Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:04 am

Pedro I Rengel wrote:No like, I'm saying like, if that's true, you should be able to mention one single church that is Catholic and is not affiliated to the Vatican.

Ok.. most Western-European churches are, Eastern-European churches, not so much, if at all.. the East/West Europe divide.

The Eastern European Catholics decided to go their own way, and denounce Rome as home, in which Rome and Constantinople broke with one another, so not all Catholics are Roman ones.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:05 am

MagsJ wrote:
Pedro I Rengel wrote:No like, I'm saying like, if that's true, you should be able to mention one single church that is Catholic and is not affiliated to the Vatican.

Ok.. most Western-European churches are, Eastern-European churches, not so much, if at all.. the East/West Europe divide.

The Eastern European Catholics decided to go their own way, and denounce Rome as home, in which Rome and Constantinople broke with one another, so not all Catholics are Roman ones.


Yeah but those aren't Catholics. They are Orthodox Christians. They don't answer to the Vatican in any way, or use the Roman rite.
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby MagsJ » Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:15 am

Pedro I Rengel wrote:And maybe you didn't hear the word Christian a lot growing up because England is much more multicultural, multireligious than South America (and the Caribbean btw) and people were careful to distinguish Catholic from other Christian sects off the bat. Like cutting to the chase, shortening the conversation.

In England, you would have been a minority as a Catholic, and so it made sense to open with that, with the majority (at least 20 years ago) being Anglican.

No!

Anglos/Anglicans/English and therefore Roman Catholics, formed a very large part of English society.. large swathes of the Country being named after many of their/my family tribes, after-all.

I’m born UK.. not WI, and certainly not USA.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:16 am

Anglicans aren't Catholic. The Anglican church is a separate entity. They don't answer to the Pope either, they answer to the queen or king of England.
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:26 am

Aside from the Anglican and Catholic churches, England also has a large number of protestant denominations. So it would make sense to say "Catholic" straight away to differentiate from other sects. South America and the Caribbean are different. The only religion that gives Catholicism any serious competition is Santeria or Voodoo or other names for the local Caribbean/South American local custom religion that sprung up naturally using elements of preceding European, African and Indian (our Indians) religions. They also, by the way, tend to incorporate Jesus and Santeria can be translated as the science of the saints, saints being a Catholic concept (also highly iconic and idolatric). Well, nowadays there is also an ever growing Evangelist population which are fucking annoying pricks. The most totalitarian people I know.

Evangelists absolutely will not tolerate a differing view.
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:29 am

Humans have idols and icons, by nature. It is only the artificial environment of academia that has allowed the idea of getting rid of some elements of human experience, like religion or hierarchy. This obviously is not possible, and only imaginable by these types because of how how far they are disconnected from the naturally occurring world. But they themselves tend to have deep religious beliefs if probed deep down enough, including some actual literal entity, which constitutes an idol. And they themselves create some of the most merciless hierarchies, like in a communist party. It is only their disconnection from the day to day life of normal people that allows them to imagine a make belief world, but that doesn't make that world real.

They grow to hate life, and want to destroy it, and so all beliefs other than their own must be eradicated.

Actual "pagans," normal people, could not give a fart what anybody else believes. In fact, normal people will be naturally curious about these beliefs and find ways to incorporate them into their own universe of awesome things they believe.
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby MagsJ » Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:30 am

Greatest I am wrote:
MagsJ wrote:All Roman Catholics are Christians, but not all Christians or Catholics are Roman Catholic.
If I go by what Jesus described as real and true Christians, there are no real Christians.

Jesus said that any who had even a small faith or belief could do what he did and more.

Have you seen any real or true Christians as described by Jesus?

I have not.

Hi DL.. I am a bit blinkered, as I don’t understand what it is that others ask or seek, because I do not understand the true intrinsic meaning or nature, of their words.

I have met kind people, but not necessarily genuine people.. is that what you mean?
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:31 am

I also lied a little. Pagan doesn't refer to non-Christians. It refers to people not observing traditional Roman religion.
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby MagsJ » Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:45 am

Pedro I Rengel wrote:OK I googled this and you're right. It's recent, though, as of 1845. And the Hindu population must still be fairly isolated from the rest, as I had never even heard of it before now. I even have Trinitarians in my family (married into).

There were also more influxes of East Indians to the West in the 1920s, because more socio-political shit went down then.

Pedro I Rengel wrote:
MagsJ wrote:Ancient Indians were pagans..
You seem to have this idea that pagans don't worship idols. In fact it is one thing that distinguishes them. Pagan doesn't even mean anything other than not Christian but religious.

I asked my family, they said No! I think that’s quite definitive, but you may beg to differ.

And yeah, people in India are not an exception. Local pagan customs include idols that are worshiped. It's meditation and things like that that were made up by Yogis and religious scholars, and introduced through the educated classes of India.

My Indic ancestry is near-indigenous and therefore very very old.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby MagsJ » Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:47 am

Pedro I Rengel wrote:In fact, there is almost no separation, in any case, between local custom and religion.

Only when one of these evil totalitarian ones, like Christianity or Budism (not Hinduism, which is a syncretism of the almost endlessly old Indian religion), is imposed on a population, do the local customs stray from official religion.

Nope.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby MagsJ » Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:09 am

Pedro I Rengel wrote:
MagsJ wrote:
Pedro I Rengel wrote:No like, I'm saying like, if that's true, you should be able to mention one single church that is Catholic and is not affiliated to the Vatican.

Ok.. most Western-European churches are, Eastern-European churches, not so much, if at all.. the East/West Europe divide.

The Eastern European Catholics decided to go their own way, and denounce Rome as home, in which Rome and Constantinople broke with one another, so not all Catholics are Roman ones.
Yeah but those aren't Catholics. They are Orthodox Christians. They don't answer to the Vatican in any way, or use the Roman rite.

They are Catholics that are no longer affiliated with Rome, so not Roman Catholic, but Catholic-Christian.

They do not answer to Rome like RCs do, but to another place.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby MagsJ » Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:27 am

Pedro I Rengel wrote:I also lied a little. Pagan doesn't refer to non-Christians. It refers to people not observing traditional Roman religion.

I know what Pagan means.. I know who my ancestors are..
do you think me ill-informed or stupid Pedro? because it seems that you do.

I know who and what I am, and no matter what you say, you cannot tell me any different or change that fact.

Anglia was a large swathe of Olde England and not a religion.. British history gets a bit complicated, at a certain point in time, but it’s easy to understand, if one knows who and what one is, and from where and whence one came from.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:55 am

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglicanism

The rest is similarly easily disprovable, but I have precious little time to debate with "nope."
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby MagsJ » Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:16 am

Pedro I Rengel wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglicanism

I said Anglicans, as in the Olde English peoples of the region of Anglia, in Angleterre/Engleland/England. The name derives from the Anglo-Saxon kingdom of the Angles/Ængles/Engles, a tribe whose name originated in Anglia in what is now northern Germany, and whom can be both English and French-Norman.. because of warfare and that, and I have both English and French-Norman ancestry.

The rest is similarly easily disprovable, but I have precious little time to debate with "nope."

The rest of what is easily disprovable? I have nothing to prove.. you engaged with me here, not I with you.. or are you someone’s puppet sent here to ask me searching questions?

Please read-up on World History before next-engaging in a discussion involving some knowledge of World History, as then you’ll be better-positioned to differentiate fact from fiction.

Why do ILP members question my Being, so? Because I’m so unbelievably intriguing and awesome, is why :romance-inlove:
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Greatest I am » Wed Dec 09, 2020 3:26 pm

MagsJ wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
MagsJ wrote:All Roman Catholics are Christians, but not all Christians or Catholics are Roman Catholic.
If I go by what Jesus described as real and true Christians, there are no real Christians.

Jesus said that any who had even a small faith or belief could do what he did and more.

Have you seen any real or true Christians as described by Jesus?

I have not.

Hi DL.. I am a bit blinkered, as I don’t understand what it is that others ask or seek, because I do not understand the true intrinsic meaning or nature, of their words.

I have met kind people, but not necessarily genuine people.. is that what you mean?


What I mean is that Jesus was teaching us how to act in our natural state, and was not referring to anything in the supernatural. Christians do not want to admit that as their religion is fantasy and supernaturally based.

These lines bolster that view.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbes ... r_embedded

Regards
DL
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Wed Dec 09, 2020 6:11 pm

Jesus don't want me for a sunbeam.
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Wed Dec 09, 2020 6:11 pm

Regards
PR
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Mr J » Wed Dec 09, 2020 7:45 pm

WendyDarling wrote:I thought Islam has Mohammad and Judaism has God which confuses me because why would Christians need Christ rather than God, the Father too? Did Christ somehow temper God? Or usurp him?


Christianity, Islam, and Judaism is all one giant Semitic religious conspiracy, worst religions ever introduced to human societies.
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Mr J » Wed Dec 09, 2020 7:47 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Zero_Sum wrote:There's the belief in Gnosticism that an evil God has taken over this world and that we're at his mercy as we're his crippled play things or meat puppets to torment on this plane of existence. I find myself becoming more of a Gnostic everyday except more on the lines of a pagan-gnostic. For me there was once a beautiful spiritual world when polytheistic paganism flourished amongst western civilization historically and that the Gnostic interpretation of the evil God who took over ruining the world is very much indeed the Abrahamic one. The Abrahamic God is the evil demonic God that the Gnostics constantly reference.

I despise Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, in my opinion they were the worst religious belief systems to befell this entire planet.



There have been worse, but none has lasted so long or done so muxh harm, in the past as well as right now thanks to their homophobia and misogyny.

I think you are mixing our Gnostic Christian beliefs with our myths.

"There's the belief in Gnosticism that an evil God has taken over this world"

That was just our debate position when arguing against the Christians, before they became insane and started to read their myths literally.

We dubbed Yahweh a vile demiurge, but do not believe in him as a real god.

We do not believe in a real miracle working Jesus, so cannot believe in a real Yahweh.

I hope you can see how intelligent the ancients were as compared to the mental efforts that modern preachers and theists are using with the literal reading of myths.

https://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Further.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

Please listen as to what is said about the literal reading of myths.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

This is how early Gnostic Christians view the transition from reading myths properly to destructive literal reading and idol worship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02cia ... =PLCBF574D

Regards
DL


Yahweh is the Gnostic Demiurge, it is the evil God introduced into the world spoke of.
Last edited by Mr J on Wed Dec 09, 2020 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Mr J » Wed Dec 09, 2020 7:50 pm

Urwrongx1000 wrote:Exactly, Catholicism is a preservation of Roman aristocracy while 'Christianity' and specifically Protestantism, were slave variants for the plebian masses.


Nope, not even close to the original pagan Roman aristocracy of the past. Catholicism destroyed Roman society leaving an empty perverted husk in its place as a replacement.
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby MagsJ » Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:39 pm

Zero_Sum wrote:
Urwrongx1000 wrote:Exactly, Catholicism is a preservation of Roman aristocracy while 'Christianity' and specifically Protestantism, were slave variants for the plebian masses.


Nope, not even close to the original pagan Roman aristocracy of the past. Catholicism destroyed Roman society leaving an empty perverted husk in its place as a replacement.

It was said to be a combination of factors that halted the Roman Empire in its tracks.. similar to what halted Alexander The Great’s world domination efforts.. in that the soldiers had simply had enough and wanted to go home to their families, and didn’t want to cross turbulent dangerous croc-infested rivers anymore or traverse big wild exotic-game territory.

Sometimes the truth is simpler, than what we imagine it to be..
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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