Gnosticism.

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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Greatest I am » Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:02 pm

Zero_Sum wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
Zero_Sum wrote:There's the belief in Gnosticism that an evil God has taken over this world and that we're at his mercy as we're his crippled play things or meat puppets to torment on this plane of existence. I find myself becoming more of a Gnostic everyday except more on the lines of a pagan-gnostic. For me there was once a beautiful spiritual world when polytheistic paganism flourished amongst western civilization historically and that the Gnostic interpretation of the evil God who took over ruining the world is very much indeed the Abrahamic one. The Abrahamic God is the evil demonic God that the Gnostics constantly reference.

I despise Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, in my opinion they were the worst religious belief systems to befell this entire planet.



There have been worse, but none has lasted so long or done so muxh harm, in the past as well as right now thanks to their homophobia and misogyny.

I think you are mixing our Gnostic Christian beliefs with our myths.

"There's the belief in Gnosticism that an evil God has taken over this world"

That was just our debate position when arguing against the Christians, before they became insane and started to read their myths literally.

We dubbed Yahweh a vile demiurge, but do not believe in him as a real god.

We do not believe in a real miracle working Jesus, so cannot believe in a real Yahweh.

I hope you can see how intelligent the ancients were as compared to the mental efforts that modern preachers and theists are using with the literal reading of myths.

https://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Further.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

Please listen as to what is said about the literal reading of myths.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

This is how early Gnostic Christians view the transition from reading myths properly to destructive literal reading and idol worship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02cia ... =PLCBF574D

Regards
DL


Yahweh is the Gnostic Demiurge, it is the evil God introduced into the world spoke of.


In our myths, yes indeed.

All fiction.

There are no fictional or supernatural beliefs in Gnostic Christianity, as I already stated.

We were and are the intelligentsia, and are not less intelligent literalists and those who have decided to think that the supernatural is real.

You might also know that we name our god in the real world, I am, and yes, we mean ourselves.

That is a part of what we call our salvation.

We still follow the thinking spoken of above.

Regards
DL
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Mr J » Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:44 pm

^^^Pagan Gnosticism is the real authentic original Gnosticism, Christian Gnosticism is a cheap fake imitation and knock off, Jesus, Allah, Yahweh, and Elohim are all just different faces of the Demiurge. Abrahamic religions are abominations and a scourge on the planet under the evil false God. All of the Abrahamic religions are a manifestation of this.
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Greatest I am » Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:29 pm

Zero_Sum wrote:^^^Pagan Gnosticism is the real authentic original Gnosticism, Christian Gnosticism is a cheap fake imitation and knock off, Jesus, Allah, Yahweh, and Elohim are all just different faces of the Demiurge. Abrahamic religions are abominations and a scourge on the planet under the evil false God. All of the Abrahamic religions are a manifestation of this.


Yes, but note that it is the Gnostic Christians speak the truth of the myths while literalists do not.

Most Christians end in adoring a genocidal satanic Yahweh while, we condemn his sorry ass to hell, just as you seem to.

Go ahead and abuse those who think as you do. That is really intelligent.

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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Mr J » Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:59 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Zero_Sum wrote:^^^Pagan Gnosticism is the real authentic original Gnosticism, Christian Gnosticism is a cheap fake imitation and knock off, Jesus, Allah, Yahweh, and Elohim are all just different faces of the Demiurge. Abrahamic religions are abominations and a scourge on the planet under the evil false God. All of the Abrahamic religions are a manifestation of this.


Yes, but note that it is the Gnostic Christians speak the truth of the myths while literalists do not.

Most Christians end in adoring a genocidal satanic Yahweh while, we condemn his sorry ass to hell, just as you seem to.

Go ahead and abuse those who think as you do. That is really intelligent.

Regards
DL


Jesus is just another false God, another face of the Demiurge.
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Greatest I am » Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:24 pm

Zero_Sum wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
Zero_Sum wrote:^^^Pagan Gnosticism is the real authentic original Gnosticism, Christian Gnosticism is a cheap fake imitation and knock off, Jesus, Allah, Yahweh, and Elohim are all just different faces of the Demiurge. Abrahamic religions are abominations and a scourge on the planet under the evil false God. All of the Abrahamic religions are a manifestation of this.


Yes, but note that it is the Gnostic Christians speak the truth of the myths while literalists do not.

Most Christians end in adoring a genocidal satanic Yahweh while, we condemn his sorry ass to hell, just as you seem to.

Go ahead and abuse those who think as you do. That is really intelligent.

Regards
DL


Jesus is just another false God, another face of the Demiurge.


In our Gnostic Christian myths, for sure. We are not literalists of our own myths though and hold no supernatural beliefs.

Regards
DL
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Mr J » Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:26 am

Greatest I am wrote:In our Gnostic Christian myths, for sure. We are not literalists of our own myths though and hold no supernatural beliefs.

Regards
DL


Says Jesus is a false God, calls themselves Christians. 8) :lol: 8-[

In my perfect historical alternate reality the Romans would of burned Jesus to ashes after the crucifixion for good measure, afterwards they would slit the throat of a ram in the praising of Jupiter but only after they killed off all of his disciples first.

Julian The Apostate would live long enough to murder Constantine in his crib.
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Lorikeet » Wed Dec 23, 2020 3:52 pm

amen
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Lorikeet » Wed Dec 23, 2020 5:58 pm

Jesus was a symbol bridging the incompatibilities between Judaism and Hellenism, offering redemption to those who were excluded by the "chosen".
Jewish mother, Roman father, inheriting both sides of contrary identities.
The paradox was resolved when he was ritually executed - his body sacrificed to be reborn as pure idea, where all paradoxes begin and end and where incompatibility is harmonized through obscurantism and mysticism.
That which died was the physical, the tangible, the real, and what was resurrected cleansed and purified is the ideal.
Christianity gained Hellenic cosmopolitanism and maintained its victim identity and its messianic mission to "save mankind" from the real world.
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Mr J » Wed Dec 23, 2020 6:20 pm

Lorikeet wrote:Jesus was a symbol bridging the incompatibilities between Judaism and Hellenism, offering redemption to those who were excluded by the "chosen".
Jewish mother, Roman father, inheriting both sides of contrary identities.
The paradox was resolved when he was ritually executed - his body sacrificed to be reborn as pure idea, where all paradoxes begin and end and where incompatibility is harmonized through obscurantism and mysticism.
That which died was the physical, the tangible, the real, and what was resurrected cleansed and purified is the ideal.
Christianity gained Hellenic cosmopolitanism and maintained its victim identity and its messianic mission to "save mankind" from the real world.


Very nice, articulate, and well said. =D>

I especially like the bit of an absurd or ridiculous incompatible paradox existing as pure idealism in death.
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Lorikeet » Wed Dec 23, 2020 6:32 pm

No not "in death".
The incompatible can coexist only in the mind, so it is in the mind where these freaks place their ideologies and religious dogmas....pure Intellectual theories represented by words.

In the mind paradoxes are created when the ideal is contradicted by the real, and it is only the mind that is not inhibited by space time or natural order...ergo in the mind a satyr, or a unicorn, or any absurdity can exist as idea. It is in the mind where it can be justified using obscurantism and mysticism....like the kind characterizing the Abrahamic triad.
All three believe in a non-existent singularity, concealed within multiplicities, e.g., the tridastic essence of the Christian one-god, and the duality of the Jewish Kabbalistic tree of life.
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Mr J » Wed Dec 23, 2020 6:43 pm

Lorikeet wrote:No not "in death".
The incompatible can coexist only in the mind, so it is in the mind where these freaks place their ideologies and religious dogmas....pure Intellectual theories represented by words.

In the mind paradoxes are created when the ideal is contradicted by the real, and it is only the mind that is not inhibited by space time or natural order...ergo in the mind a satyr, or a unicorn, or any absurdity can exist as idea. It is in the mind where it can be justified using obscurantism and mysticism....like the kind characterizing the Abrahamic triad.
All three believe in a non-existent singularity, concealed within multiplicities, e.g., the tridastic essence of the Christian one-god, and the duality of the Jewish Kabbalistic tree of life.
Agreed, but we can call this mental disease a sort of mental death.

It is clear Hellenic cosmopolitanism couldn't exist in the real world which is why after the crucifixion it existed as a spook, phantom, or ghost of pure idealism extending from the grave of resurrection. Makes sense they refer to it as the holy ghost.
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Lorikeet » Wed Dec 23, 2020 7:34 pm

Mathew 18:20...implying that if one or more of you believe, or hold onto the idea/ideal then the meme survives as pure meme, as pure idea/ideal.
It does not exists outside minds.
as with all nihilistic ideas it only survives as idea, as logos, as symbol/word - it is impotent outside a collective.
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby MagsJ » Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:47 am

Greatest I am wrote:
MagsJ wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:If I go by what Jesus described as real and true Christians, there are no real Christians.

Jesus said that any who had even a small faith or belief could do what he did and more.

Have you seen any real or true Christians as described by Jesus?

I have not.

Hi DL.. I am a bit blinkered, as I don’t understand what it is that others ask or seek, because I do not understand the true intrinsic meaning or nature, of their words.

I have met kind people, but not necessarily genuine people.. is that what you mean?

What I mean is that Jesus was teaching us how to act in our natural state, and was not referring to anything in the supernatural. Christians do not want to admit that as their religion is fantasy and supernaturally based.

These lines bolster that view.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbes ... r_embedded

Regards
DL

Hey DL! Thanks for the clarification.

“Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.”

Sounds like a visual positive-affirmation, to me.. a visualisation, to guide a person to a positive mental and ultimately a physical place. Do agnostics do this through sheer will, or by other means?
_
“John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.”

Sounds like making friends, not enemies, so doing away with feudalism and tribal warfare. Do Gnostics not agree with that, as a better way to live/to exist?
_
“Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”

Ok, I have no idea what that means, but I don’t know the full context it was said in.. I’ll look it up, and respond on it then.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Mr J » Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:02 pm

This is suppose to be a thread about Gnosticism, not different faces of the Demiurge where people recite things about a pathetic weak dead crucified Jew. Thanks in advance. 8)

Ancient Romans should of burned his dead body and scattered his ashes to the four winds, their only mistake. 8)

Would of been extremely difficult to have a resurrection cult if all that was left of his remains were cremated.
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby MagsJ » Wed Dec 30, 2020 8:14 pm

_
Well I’m currently irreligious and GIA is agnostic,
and since when have you been such a stickler for on-topicness?
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Mr J » Fri Jan 01, 2021 10:11 am

MagsJ wrote:_
Well I’m currently irreligious and GIA is agnostic,
and since when have you been such a stickler for on-topicness?


Here I am, before there was the fraud of Christian Gnostics there were pagan Gnostics, but in that period of time the Christians in the name of the crucified dead Jew God killed off all the pagans to where only Christian Gnostics were left because like everything else with that mental virus of a religion they absorbed it through assimilation making it their own when in fact pagan Gnostics proceeded them. Pagan Gnosticism was created as a sort of spiritual or religious resistance against the presence of an invading foreign religion known as Christianity. Subsequently the disease of Christianity swept all over ancient Europe and the rest is history as they say. I can't stress enough how much I hate and despise Christianity, entering a Christian church I literally fall out into spontaneous human combustion. 8)

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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Mr J » Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:06 pm

Pagan interpretation: Jesus, Allah, and Yahweh are indeed all the same singular figure that is Yaldabaoth[Demiurge].

Jesus is the son of Yaldabaoth, whoopty fucking du. The old testament is shit and so is the new one.


Christian Gnostics: "But we worship the bastard son, not the father!" 8)


The demiurge (Greek demiurgos,[1] “craftsman”[2]) is the being who created the world in Gnosticism. The Gnostics identified him with the god of the Old Testament. The Gnostic scriptures portray him as ignorant, malicious, and utterly inferior to the true God who sent Christ to earth to save mankind from the demiurge’s evil world.

The demiurge is given many names in the Gnostic scriptures, but the three most common ones are Yaldabaoth (also spelled “Ialdabaoth”), Samael, and Saklas. “Saklas” comes from the Aramaic word for “fool,” and “Samael” is Aramaic for “Blind God” or “God of the Blind.”[3] The meaning of “Yaldabaoth” is uncertain. The Gnostic text On the Origin of the World fancifully translates it as “Youth, move over there,” but no word or string of words that sounds like “Yaldabaoth” meant that in any ancient Mediterranean language.[4] “Yaldabaoth” is somewhat close to “child of chaos” in Aramaic, but that’s still a stretch,[5] as is the intuitively plausible suggestion that it could be a condensed form of “Yahweh, Lord of Sabbaths.”[6]

In the Gnostic creation myth, Heaven – which the Gnostics called the “Pleroma,” “Fullness” – was all that existed until a divine entity named Sophia tried to conceive on her own, without the involvement of her heavenly partner or the consent of God. Sophia gave birth to a son that was the product of the rebellious and profane desire that had arisen within her.

This son of hers was the demiurge. The Gnostic text Reality of the Archons describes “him” as an androgynous being, an “arrogant beast” that resembled an aborted fetus in both appearance and character.[7] The Secret Book of John adds that he had the body of a snake and the head of a lion, with eyes like lightning bolts.[8] (In ancient Greek philosophy, the lion was frequently a symbol of irrational passions. The Gnostics were steeped in the Greek philosophical tradition, so their description of the demiurge as having a lion’s head was probably intended to show that he was a being who couldn’t or wouldn’t control his base urges.[9] That certainly fits the demiurge’s personality as described in their texts.)

When Sophia saw the horrifying, twisted being that had come from her, she was deeply ashamed and afraid. She disowned him and cast him out of Heaven.

From his lonely position where his madness and conceit could go unchecked, the demiurge gave birth to the archons (“rulers”[10]), beings who were like him and could help him administer the material world. He then created the material world, which, like all creations, was a reflection of the personality of its creator.

The demiurge then created Adam and Eve and imprisoned divine sparks from Heaven within them. He told them that he was the only god and issued the Ten Commandments, even though he himself broke each and every one of those commandments. For example, he lied when he claimed to be the only god and that Adam and Eve would die if they ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil; he insulted his mother and father by refusing to acknowledge their existence; he made a graven image of the divine when he modeled the material world on his corrupt and ignorant misunderstanding of Heaven; and he committed adultery by attempting to rape Eve.[11]

Where the Idea of the Gnostic Demiurge Came From

How could the Gnostics have possibly come up with the idea that such a being created the earth? It seems quite incongruous with Christianity as we understand it today. But in the time when Gnosticism arose (the late first or early second century AD), that wasn’t really the case. To be sure, Jews, Roman pagans, and the Gnostics’ fellow Christians found the Gnostic idea of an evil creator to be shocking and blasphemous. But when we consider the intellectual and spiritual environment within which Gnosticism arose – one that was dominated by Plato’s long shadow, and where Christians were still trying to decide on the basics of their new religion and separate it from Judaism – the Gnostic conception of the demiurge makes a lot more sense.

The word “demiurge” comes from Plato, although Plato’s demiurge was far from evil. For Plato and other pagan Greek and Roman philosophers who followed him, the material world was the creation of a divine “craftsman” who made the world the best reflection of the perfect spiritual world of the Forms that was possible given the constraints of matter.[12]

In Judaism, it was an established tradition to split off particular faculties of God from God himself and credit those lesser divine beings, such as Wisdom, with having assisted God in the creation of the world, as in the eighth chapter of Proverbs and the twenty-fourth chapter of Sirach. Christians inherited and extended this tradition, such as when the first chapter of the Gospel of John identifies Christ with God’s Word/Logos and gives him an indispensable role in creation.[13]

So the Gnostics’ attribution of the act of creation to someone other than the ultimate God was hardly radical by the standards of the Christianity and Judaism of their time – indeed, it was downright conventional. But the Gnostics’ influences all portrayed these divine helpers as benevolent and their work as in harmony with the wishes of the perfectly good ultimate God. How did the Gnostics get the idea that the demiurge was instead malevolent?

Strange as it may at first seem, this, too, was probably a good-faith interpretation of Christian scriptures that were already widespread, popular, and authoritative in the Gnostics’ time. After all, the Gospel of Luke (4:6) and the Gospel of Matthew (4:8) assume that Satan is the ruler of the world when Satan offers Jesus the world in exchange for his worship. Likewise, the Gospel of John mentions an evil “ruler (archon) of this world” in no less than three places (12:31, 14:30, and 16:11). Luke (10:18) and John (12:31) both speak of Satan or a Satan-like entity ruling the earth from the sky and being vanquished by Jesus’s ministry.[14] 1 John 5:19 is even more blunt: “We know that we are God’s children, and that the whole world lies under the power of the evil one.”[15]

The Christians of the first and second centuries, including the Gnostics, were tasked with the monumental project of figuring out what to do with the “Old Testament” that they were supplanting with their own “New Testament.” In the words of Simone Pétrement, they were attempting “to limit the value of the Old Testament within a religion that nevertheless preserves it.”[16]

Early Christians were highly critical of many of the particulars of Judaism, asserting that Christ had come to correct what the Jews had gotten wrong. Consider the Apostle Paul’s remarks to Peter on the Mosaic Law, the centerpiece of Judaism, in Galatians 2:11-21:

We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is justified not by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ. … I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.[17]

The Gnostics took all of these pieces and combined them. If the world had been created by a lesser being rather than the ultimate God, and if the world was currently ruled by a demonic being, and if Christ had come to correct the flaws of Judaism, why not posit that the Jewish creator god was the demonic being who ruled the world – that Christ came as an emissary from the ultimate God to save mankind from the creator?

Note, by the way, that the Gnostics could arrive at this position even while upholding the sanctity of the Jewish scriptures: everything those books said was accurate, but their authors had been ignorant of the true meaning of what they had written about.[18]

Such a view also had the effect of enabling the Gnostics to make sense of several passages in the Old Testament that had long troubled Christians and even Jews. “The god of Genesis,” notes David Brakke,

walks in an earthly garden and must ask where Adam is (Genesis 3:8-9); he concludes that his creation of humanity and animals was a mistake and decides to destroy all people, except for a single family and a few beasts (6:5-22); and he later annihilates entire cities by raining sulfur and fire down upon them (19:24-25).[19]

The Gnostics took Genesis at its word and concluded that this god was simply malicious, hot-tempered, stupid, and inept.


https://gnosticismexplained.org/the-gnostic-demiurge/
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Artimas » Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:28 pm

Zero_Sum wrote:There's the belief in Gnosticism that an evil God has taken over this world and that we're at his mercy as we're his crippled play things or meat puppets to torment on this plane of existence. I find myself becoming more of a Gnostic everyday except more on the lines of a pagan-gnostic. For me there was once a beautiful spiritual world when polytheistic paganism flourished amongst western civilization historically and that the Gnostic interpretation of the evil God who took over ruining the world is very much indeed the Abrahamic one. The Abrahamic God is the evil demonic God that the Gnostics constantly reference.

I despise Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, in my opinion they were the worst religious belief systems to befell this entire planet.

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I don’t think that is the main belief through Gnosticism that the god itself is evil. It’s the duality that descended from this unknowable god that creates such ‘evil’ by ignorance existing. Reality and the universe is inherently selfish and ignorant which leads to evil, doesn’t mean the god of singularity itself is, the singularity transcends the concept of good and evil, it is outside of reality and our experience of duality.

The Christian god is wisdom, and I can break that down if needed or explain how it was meant to be translated or understood, it’s like a riddle, the god is all powerful, all knowing and all good. Wisdom itself meets all of which sum up that criteria or description. It’s a metaphorical riddle, not a literal depiction of a flawed god. There is no flaw outside the demiurge, this is why it is unknowable to us, wisdom is an infinite, not an absolute. Reality is absolute, with an infinite force running through, in and with reality. A transcendental force (the unknowable god that cannot be perceived/conceived fully).

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Mr J » Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:36 pm

Once again, the pagan Gnostic interpretation is that the God who has taken over the world through his three accursed religions from the Dead Sea is malevolent and evil, the God of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. Before those three religions came onto the scene there were natural pagan gods that were good dwelling from the realm of primordial nature, it was only until the Abrahamic God came onto the scene with his rampant materialism being the craftsman God did the world become taken over by malevolent evil.

This is my pagan spiritual revisionism inserted into the Gnostic subject of course. 8)

Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are purely religions of the Demiurge with their malevolent God.

There is nothing good whatsoever concerning the religions of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, they're all abominations. They're religions of fools, psychopaths, and hypocrites.
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Artimas » Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:52 pm

Zero_Sum wrote:Once again, the pagan Gnostic interpretation is that the God who has taken over the world through his three accursed religions from the Dead Sea is malevolent and evil, the God of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. Before those three religions came onto the scene there were natural pagan gods that were good dwelling from the realm of primordial nature, it was only until the Abrahamic God came onto the scene with his rampant materialism being the craftsman God did the world become taken over by malevolent evil.

This is my pagan spiritual revisionism inserted into the Gnostic subject of course. 8)

Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are purely religions of the Demiurge with their malevolent God.

There is nothing good whatsoever concerning the religions of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, they're all abominations. They're religions of fools, psychopaths, and hypocrites.


Just because people don’t understand it doesn’t mean it is the religions fault itself. People twisted in with their own perceptions and edit it. The very basic idea was to follow wisdom and expanding consciousness. Not to be interpreted literally.

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Greatest I am » Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:39 pm

MagsJ wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
MagsJ wrote:Hi DL.. I am a bit blinkered, as I don’t understand what it is that others ask or seek, because I do not understand the true intrinsic meaning or nature, of their words.

I have met kind people, but not necessarily genuine people.. is that what you mean?

What I mean is that Jesus was teaching us how to act in our natural state, and was not referring to anything in the supernatural. Christians do not want to admit that as their religion is fantasy and supernaturally based.

These lines bolster that view.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbes ... r_embedded

Regards
DL

Hey DL! Thanks for the clarification.

“Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.”

Sounds like a visual positive-affirmation, to me.. a visualisation, to guide a person to a positive mental and ultimately a physical place. Do agnostics do this through sheer will, or by other means?
_
“John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.”

Sounds like making friends, not enemies, so doing away with feudalism and tribal warfare. Do Gnostics not agree with that, as a better way to live/to exist?
_
“Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”

Ok, I have no idea what that means, but I don’t know the full context it was said in.. I’ll look it up, and respond on it then.


It is esoteric. You have to look within, not without.

That last means Yahweh gives up power to judge to the son at his right hand. A good thing if they had not made Jesus as genocidal as dad.

That guy, if you can recognize him is you. You end in claiming your sovereignty. In DNA terms, you affirm your fitness. In spiritual terms, you have evolved and graduated.

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DL
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Greatest I am » Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:43 pm

Zero_Sum wrote:This is suppose to be a thread about Gnosticism, not different faces of the Demiurge where people recite things about a pathetic weak dead crucified Jew. Thanks in advance. 8)

Ancient Romans should of burned his dead body and scattered his ashes to the four winds, their only mistake. 8)

Would of been extremely difficult to have a resurrection cult if all that was left of his remains were cremated.


In fantasies, the icon maters not.

What question on Gnosticism do you have in mind?

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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Greatest I am » Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:54 pm

Zero_Sum wrote:Pagan interpretation: Jesus, Allah, and Yahweh are indeed all the same singular figure that is Yaldabaoth[Demiurge].

Jesus is the son of Yaldabaoth, whoopty fucking du. The old testament is shit and so is the new one.


Christian Gnostics: "But we worship the bastard son, not the father!" 8)


The demiurge (Greek demiurgos,[1] “craftsman”[2]) is the being who created the world in Gnosticism. The Gnostics identified him with the god of the Old Testament. The Gnostic scriptures portray him as ignorant, malicious, and utterly inferior to the true God who sent Christ to earth to save mankind from the demiurge’s evil world.

The demiurge is given many names in the Gnostic scriptures, but the three most common ones are Yaldabaoth (also spelled “Ialdabaoth”), Samael, and Saklas. “Saklas” comes from the Aramaic word for “fool,” and “Samael” is Aramaic for “Blind God” or “God of the Blind.”[3] The meaning of “Yaldabaoth” is uncertain. The Gnostic text On the Origin of the World fancifully translates it as “Youth, move over there,” but no word or string of words that sounds like “Yaldabaoth” meant that in any ancient Mediterranean language.[4] “Yaldabaoth” is somewhat close to “child of chaos” in Aramaic, but that’s still a stretch,[5] as is the intuitively plausible suggestion that it could be a condensed form of “Yahweh, Lord of Sabbaths.”[6]

In the Gnostic creation myth, Heaven – which the Gnostics called the “Pleroma,” “Fullness” – was all that existed until a divine entity named Sophia tried to conceive on her own, without the involvement of her heavenly partner or the consent of God. Sophia gave birth to a son that was the product of the rebellious and profane desire that had arisen within her.

This son of hers was the demiurge. The Gnostic text Reality of the Archons describes “him” as an androgynous being, an “arrogant beast” that resembled an aborted fetus in both appearance and character.[7] The Secret Book of John adds that he had the body of a snake and the head of a lion, with eyes like lightning bolts.[8] (In ancient Greek philosophy, the lion was frequently a symbol of irrational passions. The Gnostics were steeped in the Greek philosophical tradition, so their description of the demiurge as having a lion’s head was probably intended to show that he was a being who couldn’t or wouldn’t control his base urges.[9] That certainly fits the demiurge’s personality as described in their texts.)

When Sophia saw the horrifying, twisted being that had come from her, she was deeply ashamed and afraid. She disowned him and cast him out of Heaven.

From his lonely position where his madness and conceit could go unchecked, the demiurge gave birth to the archons (“rulers”[10]), beings who were like him and could help him administer the material world. He then created the material world, which, like all creations, was a reflection of the personality of its creator.

The demiurge then created Adam and Eve and imprisoned divine sparks from Heaven within them. He told them that he was the only god and issued the Ten Commandments, even though he himself broke each and every one of those commandments. For example, he lied when he claimed to be the only god and that Adam and Eve would die if they ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil; he insulted his mother and father by refusing to acknowledge their existence; he made a graven image of the divine when he modeled the material world on his corrupt and ignorant misunderstanding of Heaven; and he committed adultery by attempting to rape Eve.[11]

Where the Idea of the Gnostic Demiurge Came From

How could the Gnostics have possibly come up with the idea that such a being created the earth? It seems quite incongruous with Christianity as we understand it today. But in the time when Gnosticism arose (the late first or early second century AD), that wasn’t really the case. To be sure, Jews, Roman pagans, and the Gnostics’ fellow Christians found the Gnostic idea of an evil creator to be shocking and blasphemous. But when we consider the intellectual and spiritual environment within which Gnosticism arose – one that was dominated by Plato’s long shadow, and where Christians were still trying to decide on the basics of their new religion and separate it from Judaism – the Gnostic conception of the demiurge makes a lot more sense.

The word “demiurge” comes from Plato, although Plato’s demiurge was far from evil. For Plato and other pagan Greek and Roman philosophers who followed him, the material world was the creation of a divine “craftsman” who made the world the best reflection of the perfect spiritual world of the Forms that was possible given the constraints of matter.[12]

In Judaism, it was an established tradition to split off particular faculties of God from God himself and credit those lesser divine beings, such as Wisdom, with having assisted God in the creation of the world, as in the eighth chapter of Proverbs and the twenty-fourth chapter of Sirach. Christians inherited and extended this tradition, such as when the first chapter of the Gospel of John identifies Christ with God’s Word/Logos and gives him an indispensable role in creation.[13]

So the Gnostics’ attribution of the act of creation to someone other than the ultimate God was hardly radical by the standards of the Christianity and Judaism of their time – indeed, it was downright conventional. But the Gnostics’ influences all portrayed these divine helpers as benevolent and their work as in harmony with the wishes of the perfectly good ultimate God. How did the Gnostics get the idea that the demiurge was instead malevolent?

Strange as it may at first seem, this, too, was probably a good-faith interpretation of Christian scriptures that were already widespread, popular, and authoritative in the Gnostics’ time. After all, the Gospel of Luke (4:6) and the Gospel of Matthew (4:8) assume that Satan is the ruler of the world when Satan offers Jesus the world in exchange for his worship. Likewise, the Gospel of John mentions an evil “ruler (archon) of this world” in no less than three places (12:31, 14:30, and 16:11). Luke (10:18) and John (12:31) both speak of Satan or a Satan-like entity ruling the earth from the sky and being vanquished by Jesus’s ministry.[14] 1 John 5:19 is even more blunt: “We know that we are God’s children, and that the whole world lies under the power of the evil one.”[15]

The Christians of the first and second centuries, including the Gnostics, were tasked with the monumental project of figuring out what to do with the “Old Testament” that they were supplanting with their own “New Testament.” In the words of Simone Pétrement, they were attempting “to limit the value of the Old Testament within a religion that nevertheless preserves it.”[16]

Early Christians were highly critical of many of the particulars of Judaism, asserting that Christ had come to correct what the Jews had gotten wrong. Consider the Apostle Paul’s remarks to Peter on the Mosaic Law, the centerpiece of Judaism, in Galatians 2:11-21:

We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is justified not by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ. … I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.[17]

The Gnostics took all of these pieces and combined them. If the world had been created by a lesser being rather than the ultimate God, and if the world was currently ruled by a demonic being, and if Christ had come to correct the flaws of Judaism, why not posit that the Jewish creator god was the demonic being who ruled the world – that Christ came as an emissary from the ultimate God to save mankind from the creator?

Note, by the way, that the Gnostics could arrive at this position even while upholding the sanctity of the Jewish scriptures: everything those books said was accurate, but their authors had been ignorant of the true meaning of what they had written about.[18]

Such a view also had the effect of enabling the Gnostics to make sense of several passages in the Old Testament that had long troubled Christians and even Jews. “The god of Genesis,” notes David Brakke,

walks in an earthly garden and must ask where Adam is (Genesis 3:8-9); he concludes that his creation of humanity and animals was a mistake and decides to destroy all people, except for a single family and a few beasts (6:5-22); and he later annihilates entire cities by raining sulfur and fire down upon them (19:24-25).[19]

The Gnostics took Genesis at its word and concluded that this god was simply malicious, hot-tempered, stupid, and inept.


https://gnosticismexplained.org/the-gnostic-demiurge/


Thanks for this.

You are correct in that Gnostic Christians understand both the literalist Jewish and Christian reading of myths.

Generally, as that is all that can be said of such a fractured religion.

We are not literal readers of myths and hold no supernatural beliefs.

Nature is all that is needed to explain reality. In fact, Mother Nature makes a fool of Yahweh as she creates for the best possible end while Yahweh does not. Yahweh is genocidal while Mother Nature is not.

As a side note, please do not insult Gnostic Christians by saying we worship anything.

We are perpetual seekers and not idolaters like the mainstream religions.

Regards
DL
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Mr J » Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:38 am

Greatest I am wrote:
In fantasies, the icon maters not.

What question on Gnosticism do you have in mind?

Regards
DL


Sure, that's why you call yourself a Christian, a follower of Christ. 8)

The Gnosticism I have in mind is a natural reversion back to paganism and the old gods of this earth, to this I've been quite clear.

Where nature was celebrated over the materialism of mankind and where humanity's natural behavior was understood instead of being regulated, forbidden, taboo, or chastised.
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Mr J » Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:49 am

Artimas wrote:Just because people don’t understand it doesn’t mean it is the religions fault itself. People twisted in with their own perceptions and edit it. The very basic idea was to follow wisdom and expanding consciousness. Not to be interpreted literally.


Christians, when they weren't killing pagans or nonbelievers they often enough have killed each other over a dead Jewish God long dead. How exactly can one misinterpret Christianity especially if one is a biblical literalist? The words or voice of God are quite clear, are they not? 8)

Aren't you suppose to be a Satanist? Another group of imbeciles that don't understand the history or meaning behind Saturnus. Truly a tragedy and a comedy.
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