Gnosticism.

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Gnosticism.

Postby Zero_Sum » Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:59 pm

There's the belief in Gnosticism that an evil God has taken over this world and that we're at his mercy as we're his crippled play things or meat puppets to torment on this plane of existence. I find myself becoming more of a Gnostic everyday except more on the lines of a pagan-gnostic. For me there was once a beautiful spiritual world when polytheistic paganism flourished amongst western civilization historically and that the Gnostic interpretation of the evil God who took over ruining the world is very much indeed the Abrahamic one. The Abrahamic God is the evil demonic God that the Gnostics constantly reference.

I despise Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, in my opinion they were the worst religious belief systems to befell this entire planet.

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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby iambiguous » Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:09 pm

Zero_Sum wrote:There's the belief in Gnosticism that an evil God has taken over this world and that we're at his mercy as we're his crippled play things or meat puppets to torment on this plane of existence. I find myself becoming more of a Gnostic everyday except more on the lines of a pagan-gnostic. For me there was once a beautiful spiritual world when polytheistic paganism flourished amongst western civilization historically and that the Gnostic interpretation of the evil God who took over ruining the world is very much indeed the Abrahamic one. The Abrahamic God is the evil demonic God that the Gnostics constantly reference.


Yes, there are many, many, many beliefs about God.

What I would prefer however is for Gnostics to at least make an attempt to demonstrate why their own beliefs reflect that which all rational men and women ought to embrace as well.

After all, as Michael Shermer noted:

"In the past 10,000 years, humans have devised roughly 100,000 religions based on roughly 2,500 gods. So the only difference between myself and the believers is that I am skeptical of 2,500 gods whereas they are skeptical of 2,499 gods. We're only one God away from total agreement."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_r ... traditions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_r ... opulations

Why their God?

Same with your own beliefs. Why should others accept them? How would you substantiate them?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Zero_Sum » Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:14 pm

iambiguous wrote:
Yes, there are many, many, many beliefs about God.

What I would prefer however is for Gnostics to at least make an attempt to demonstrate why their own beliefs reflect that which all rational men and women ought to embrace as well.

After all, as Michael Shermer noted:

"In the past 10,000 years, humans have devised roughly 100,000 religions based on roughly 2,500 gods. So the only difference between myself and the believers is that I am skeptical of 2,500 gods whereas they are skeptical of 2,499 gods. We're only one God away from total agreement."

Why their God?

Same with your own beliefs. Why should others accept them? How would you substantiate them?


Merely expressing my own views and spiritual beliefs, I'm not saying people should embrace them, merely that they're my own.

Yes, there's several manifestations of religion or spirituality, as a subjectivist one would think you could appreciate that, or, are you trying to make an objective atheistic judgement here? How does that fit with dasein Biggie?
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby iambiguous » Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:16 pm

Zero_Sum wrote:
iambiguous wrote:
Zero_Sum wrote:There's the belief in Gnosticism that an evil God has taken over this world and that we're at his mercy as we're his crippled play things or meat puppets to torment on this plane of existence. I find myself becoming more of a Gnostic everyday except more on the lines of a pagan-gnostic. For me there was once a beautiful spiritual world when polytheistic paganism flourished amongst western civilization historically and that the Gnostic interpretation of the evil God who took over ruining the world is very much indeed the Abrahamic one. The Abrahamic God is the evil demonic God that the Gnostics constantly reference.


Yes, there are many, many, many beliefs about God.

What I would prefer however is for Gnostics to at least make an attempt to demonstrate why their own beliefs reflect that which all rational men and women ought to embrace as well.

After all, as Michael Shermer noted:

"In the past 10,000 years, humans have devised roughly 100,000 religions based on roughly 2,500 gods. So the only difference between myself and the believers is that I am skeptical of 2,500 gods whereas they are skeptical of 2,499 gods. We're only one God away from total agreement."

Why their God?

Same with your own beliefs. Why should others accept them? How would you substantiate them?


Merely expressing my own views and spiritual beliefs, I'm not saying people should embrace them, merely that they're my own.

Yes, there's several manifestations of religion or spirituality, as a subjectivist one would think you could appreciate that, or, are you trying to make an objective atheistic judgement here? How does that fit with dasein?


Okay, if that is as far as you wish to go here, that's your prerogative. My own is in another direction altogether.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Zero_Sum » Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:18 pm

iambiguous wrote:
Okay, if that is as far as you wish to go here, that's your prerogative. My own is in another direction altogether.


It sounds like you look at God and religion objectively Biggie, I'm confused. I thought philosophical objectivism wasn't your thing.
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:59 pm

That's there's a demiurge seems almost a given.
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:32 pm

Zero_Sum wrote:There's the belief in Gnosticism that an evil God has taken over this world and that we're at his mercy as we're his crippled play things or meat puppets to torment on this plane of existence. I find myself becoming more of a Gnostic everyday except more on the lines of a pagan-gnostic. For me there was once a beautiful spiritual world when polytheistic paganism flourished amongst western civilization historically and that the Gnostic interpretation of the evil God who took over ruining the world is very much indeed the Abrahamic one. The Abrahamic God is the evil demonic God that the Gnostics constantly reference.

I despise Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, in my opinion they were the worst religious belief systems to befell this entire planet.

Image


You're confused my brother. What you hate about Christianity and Islam is Platonism.

The ideal world, that wants to banish all Gods and impose the One Perfect Idea.

The Jewish religion had no interest in banishing any Gods. They just for themselves preferred to worship only one. They were and are actually extremely respectful of other people's beliefs.

Plato. Word to your mother.
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Zero_Sum » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:51 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:That's there's a demiurge seems almost a given.

That's exactly what the Gnostics would call it, absolutely.
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Zero_Sum » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:55 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:
You're confused my brother. What you hate about Christianity and Islam is Platonism.

The ideal world, that wants to banish all Gods and impose the One Perfect Idea.

The Jewish religion had no interest in banishing any Gods. They just for themselves preferred to worship only one. They were and are actually extremely respectful of other people's beliefs.

Plato. Word to your mother.


That wasn't Plato's fault, Islam and Christianity bastardized Platoism with their religious ideals or ideology.

Judaism is respectful of nothing and no-one, its followers literally believe they're chosen to inherit the entire earth possessing it for themselves only. They care about nobody or nothing other than themselves.
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby iambiguous » Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:11 pm

Zero_Sum wrote:
iambiguous wrote:
Okay, if that is as far as you wish to go here, that's your prerogative. My own is in another direction altogether.


It sounds like you look at God and religion objectively Biggie, I'm confused. I thought philosophical objectivism wasn't your thing.


Just out of curiosity, note a few examples of what from your point of view denotes me looking at God and religion objectively.

In fact, I don't even know objectively if my views on them reflect my own free will. Let alone how I would go about closing the gap between what I think about them here and now and all that would need to be known about them going back to the complete understanding of existence itself.

How do you go about closing that gap?

How would a pagan-gnostic go about it?

Most of course go about it by not actually thinking about it at all.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Zero_Sum » Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:27 pm

iambiguous wrote:
Zero_Sum wrote:
iambiguous wrote:
Okay, if that is as far as you wish to go here, that's your prerogative. My own is in another direction altogether.


It sounds like you look at God and religion objectively Biggie, I'm confused. I thought philosophical objectivism wasn't your thing.


Just out of curiosity, note a few examples of what from your point of view denotes me looking at God and religion objectively.

In fact, I don't even know objectively if my views on them reflect my own free will. Let alone how I would go about closing the gap between what I think about them here and now and all that would need to be known about them going back to the complete understanding of existence itself.

How do you go about closing that gap?

How would a pagan-gnostic go about it?

Most of course go about it by not actually thinking about it at all.


I just find it interesting how an atheistic nihilist pronounces to reject all forms of philosophical objectivIsm and then goes on in an objective manner to disprove the existence of God or gods. Seems very interesting, how does that inconsistency work exactly?

Why even bother at all?
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby iambiguous » Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:28 pm

Zero_Sum wrote:
Karpel Tunnel wrote:That's there's a demiurge seems almost a given.

That's exactly what the Gnostics would call it, absolutely.


Of course this is also just something that some "think up" in their head. Or something that others shove down into it. It seems almost a given so that's as far as they need go to demonstrate it.

On the other hand, there's still the part where the demiurge is intertwined in the behaviors that they choose on this side of the grave in sync with whatever the demiurge's role is in deciding the fate of "I" on the other side of it.

But, hey, just "think up" something here to believe is true too, right?

Also, a distinction has to be made between theology and philosophy here. But just "think" that up too. :wink:
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Zero_Sum » Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:31 pm

iambiguous wrote:
Of course this is also just something that some "think up" in their head. Or something that others shove down into it. It seems almost a given so that's as far as they need go to demonstrate it.

On the other hand, there's still the part where the demiurge is intertwined in the behaviors that they choose on this side of the grave in sync with whatever the demiurge's role is in deciding the fate of "I" on the other side of it.

But, hey, just "think up" something here to believe is true too, right?

Also, a distinction has to be made between theology and philosophy here. But just "think" that up too. :wink:


A nihilist who believes in nothing, sees no purpose in anything, and even to the point of seeing no purpose in themselves for whatever reason is very concerned about the purpose that others creates in themselves in terms of valuing, seems very peculiar Biggie.
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:41 pm

Zero_Sum wrote:
Pedro I Rengel wrote:
You're confused my brother. What you hate about Christianity and Islam is Platonism.

The ideal world, that wants to banish all Gods and impose the One Perfect Idea.

The Jewish religion had no interest in banishing any Gods. They just for themselves preferred to worship only one. They were and are actually extremely respectful of other people's beliefs.

Plato. Word to your mother.


That wasn't Plato's fault, Islam and Christianity bastardized Platoism with their religious ideals or ideology.

Judaism is respectful of nothing and no-one, its followers literally believe they're chosen to inherit the entire earth possessing it for themselves only. They care about nobody or nothing other than themselves.


Well you can't ask for an absolute master and at the same time complain if he mistreats you.

You either want Plato or you don't.
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby iambiguous » Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:43 pm

iambiguous wrote:
Okay, if that is as far as you wish to go here, that's your prerogative. My own is in another direction altogether.


Zero_Sum wrote:It sounds like you look at God and religion objectively Biggie, I'm confused. I thought philosophical objectivism wasn't your thing.


iambiguous wrote:Just out of curiosity, note a few examples of what from your point of view denotes me looking at God and religion objectively.

In fact, I don't even know objectively if my views on them reflect my own free will. Let alone how I would go about closing the gap between what I think about them here and now and all that would need to be known about them going back to the complete understanding of existence itself.

How do you go about closing that gap?

How would a pagan-gnostic go about it?

Most of course go about it by not actually thinking about it at all.


Zero_Sum wrote: I just find it interesting how an atheistic nihilist pronounces to reject all forms of philosophical objectivIsm and then goes on in a objective manner to disprove the existence of God or gods. Seems very interesting, how does that inconsistency work exactly?


Actually, what I don't finding interesting at all anymore is how you refuse to respond to the points and the questions I posed to you above and, instead, note yet another unsubstantiated assessment of me that is virtually the opposite of how I do think about objectivism philosophically.

Again, in making the distinction between objective knowledge in the either/or world and subjective/subjunctive opinions in the is/ought world. In regard to Gnosticism as well.

And the need to examine it existentially in regard to particular sets of circumstances.

Oh, and it's not interesting because you and your ilk have been avoiding substantive responses to the points and the questions that I and my ilk raise here for a long, long time.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Zero_Sum » Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:45 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:
Well you can't ask for an absolute master and at the same time complain if he mistreats you.

You either want Plato or you don't.


I have no problem with a dictatorship so long as it is a benevolent one and collectivist in nature, it's the international privatized dictatorship of today run by a handful of private predatory oligarchs who care nothing about a majority of people I despise, I hope this clarifies my position.
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Zero_Sum » Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:47 pm

iambiguous wrote:
Actually, what I don't finding interesting at all anymore is how you refuse to respond to the points and the questions I posed to you above and, instead, note yet another unsubstantiated assessment of me that is virtually the opposite of how I do think about objectivism philosophically.

Again, in making the distinction between objective knowledge in the either/or world and subjective/subjunctive opinions in the is/ought world. In regard to Gnosticism as well.

And the need to examine it existentially in regard to particular sets of circumstances.

Oh, and it's not interesting because you and your ilk have been avoiding substantive responses to the points and the questions that I and my ilk raise here for a long, long time.


Riddle me this and speak plainly without the garble of philosophical jargon, what exactly do you wish to examine? Be very specific.
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:53 pm

Zero_Sum wrote:
Pedro I Rengel wrote:
Well you can't ask for an absolute master and at the same time complain if he mistreats you.

You either want Plato or you don't.


I have no problem with a dictatorship so long as it is a benevolent one and collectivist in nature, it's the international privatized dictatorship of today run by a handful of private oligarchs who care nothing about a majority of people I despise, I hope this clarifies my position.


Well that's the point.

Again, you either give someone absolute power over your life, or you maintain the power to demand conditions. Not both.

You can't ask for a benevolent dictatorship. You can only ask for a dictatorship. The dictator will decide if it pleases them to be benevolent or not.

What offends people like you, that want to be dominated (if I understand you right), about Jews isn't that they want to rule your life or whatever you were trying to say. It is that they are a free people and will not be dominated.

They will sooner face extermination than domination.

While you pucker your butt up to the first would-be dictator that tells you you're pretty.
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby iambiguous » Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:56 pm

Zero_Sum wrote:
iambiguous wrote:
Of course this is also just something that some "think up" in their head. Or something that others shove down into it. It seems almost a given so that's as far as they need go to demonstrate it.

On the other hand, there's still the part where the demiurge is intertwined in the behaviors that they choose on this side of the grave in sync with whatever the demiurge's role is in deciding the fate of "I" on the other side of it.

But, hey, just "think up" something here to believe is true too, right?

Also, a distinction has to be made between theology and philosophy here. But just "think" that up too. :wink:


A nihilist who believes in nothing, sees no purpose in anything, and even to the point of seeing no purpose in themselves for whatever reason is very concerned about the purpose that others creates in themselves in terms of valuing, seems very peculiar Biggie.


Note to others:

He actually believes he is describing me accurately here!! He really thinks that this is true!!

Now, I expect this sort of thing from Wendy Darling and the Kids. But Joker is capable of a lot more than this. As was demonstrated in the OP. It is an intelligent, well-articulated assessment of his own reaction to Gnosticism.

I don't share it and [as usual] am far more interested in the extent to which spiritual beliefs can be demonstrated. But it's certainly a post that is appropriate at a venue called "I Love Philosophy".

But look what his exchange with me has now deteriorated into...Stooge Stuff.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Zero_Sum » Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:01 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:
Zero_Sum wrote:
Pedro I Rengel wrote:
Well you can't ask for an absolute master and at the same time complain if he mistreats you.

You either want Plato or you don't.


I have no problem with a dictatorship so long as it is a benevolent one and collectivist in nature, it's the international privatized dictatorship of today run by a handful of private oligarchs who care nothing about a majority of people I despise, I hope this clarifies my position.


Well that's the point.

Again, you either give someone absolute power over your life, or you maintain the power to demand conditions. Not both.

You can't ask for a benevolent dictatorship. You can only ask for a dictatorship. The dictator will decide if it pleases them to be benevolent or not.

What offends people like you, that want to be dominated (if I understand you right), about Jews isn't that they want to rule your life or whatever you were trying to say. It is that they are a free people and will not be dominated.

They will sooner face extermination than domination.

While you pucker your butt up to the first would-be dictator that tells you you're pretty.


Not it at all, it's all about a philosopher king that lead an empire, nation state, people, and race to greater prosperity for a majority of all along with delivering people to a higher form of consciousness within the realm of a grand future destiny.

A republic or democracy will never deliver this and neither will the international oligarchic communists of today.
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:03 pm

Yeah but, again, if you give that "king" absolute power, then he has absolute power.

He does what he wants.

Whether he acts for "the good of the people" or not, is no longer your business. He does not need your go-ahead or to consult with you.

Do you see the flaw in your scheme here?
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Zero_Sum » Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:05 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:Yeah but, again, if you give that "king" absolute power, then he has absolute power.

He does what he wants.

Whether he acts for "the good of the people" or not, is no longer your business. He does not need your go-ahead or to consult with you.

Do you see the flaw in your scheme here?


Not really, thousands of years filled with whole historical scores of benevolent kings killing and replacing corrupt immoral ones.

A king is only as good as the popular support behind them and the general happiness of the citizenry.
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:09 pm

Well that's what the communists say they are.

And every tyrant ever.

Of course there are some exceptions where they really are that, like King David, but you really should be embarrassed that you are asking for someone to come in and take control of your life.
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:09 pm

Religion is merely the preserved Politics of the past.
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Re: Gnosticism.

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:12 am

Well I don't know. There's a feeling you get, at least when you're a child, before all the brainwashing sets in, when you look at the sky, and the clouds. The immensity of it, how it covers everything.

"He Who Gathers The Clouds."
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