The symbolic world

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Re: The symbolic world

Postby Ecmandu » Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:19 am

phoneutria wrote:what the fuck are you talking about ec


Very simple: if you live in Tibet, you see every color as one of the 5 elements on their prayer flags.

That called patenting a color.

If you see a minora or Star of David or Christian Cross, that’s patenting a shape.

I fucking hate when people patent PUBLIC DOMAIN!

It’s evil as fuck.

My question...

What the fuck are you talking about?
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Re: The symbolic world

Postby felix dakat » Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:47 am

Mad Man P wrote:
felix dakat wrote:Sam Harris practices meditation. Why?


I don't know... I assume because he gets some value out of it.


I don't know either. He's a critic of religion and yet a practitioner of "spirituality". Hey spirituality! How is that different than his funny cookbook analogy?

Harris has a book out entitled "Waking Up: A Guide to Spirituality Without Religion." I'll bet that wok-seared fish and shrimp cakes with ogo-tomato relish he wrote about in his satirical piece would really wake up one's taste buds!

I haven't read the book but his publicist says "From multiple New York Times best-selling author, neuroscientist, and "new atheist" Sam Harris, Waking Up is for the 30 percent of Americans who follow no religion, but who suspect that Jesus, Buddha, Lao Tzu, Rumi and the other saints and sages of history could not have all been epileptics, schizophrenics, or frauds." Jesus, Buddha, Lao Tzu, Rumi! Hey those are some of the same guys I look to for my "version of Christianity"!

And, we are told that Harris writes “A middle path exists between making religion out of spiritual life and having no spiritual life at all.” Sounds to me like Mr. Harris and I are fellow travelers on the "path."
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: The symbolic world

Postby Mad Man P » Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:35 am

phoneutria wrote:which brings me once again to tell you that you missed the point
the OP presents the notion that enlightment and science
brought on the awareness that religious scripture are not literal truths
so as a non believer you rid yourself of religion
but along with it you also rid yourself of the symbols that precede all religions
and are deeply associated with the evolutionary development of our psyche
so you end up with this big hole inside you where your psyche should connect to your consciousness
cuz you don't have any fucking symbols anymore to help make that connection
all you have is Marvel superhero stories
to make you almost tear up a bit for a moment before you go to the next distraction
and then you just live your life filling your time with bullshit because everything is meaningless

so maybe read the thread again dude
or don't, whatever, go burn some churches
whatever suits you papito


Wow, I see religion really helped you reach a state of enlightenment.
While your vitriolic view of what it means to be an atheist is a great showcase for the kind of "fairness and honesty" you've acquired as a person of faith... allow me to retort

While you marvel at a single book in the library of life trying to find all the answers within it, nay within yourself as you interpret it...
The rest of us unenlightened types tend to read the book, then move on to the next, taking in wisdom and knowledge wherever it may be found.
Whether in a dusty old tome written by ignorant bronze age people or a children's book written by ignorant popstars... It hardly matters where you find it
I don't run around calling myself a Zoroastrian because I found wisdom in the stories...
Took the wisdom, dumped the nonsense... baby saved, bathwater gone.
You keep yapping about the damn baby as though it's some great mystery how to save it, I suspect because you don't want to get rid of the bathwater.
There are no stupid questions, just stupid people.
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Re: The symbolic world

Postby Mad Man P » Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:38 am

felix dakat wrote:Sounds to me like Mr. Harris and I are fellow travelers on the "path."


Cool... so you are an atheist too?
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Re: The symbolic world

Postby felix dakat » Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:05 am

Mad Man P wrote:
felix dakat wrote:Sounds to me like Mr. Harris and I are fellow travelers on the "path."


Cool... so you are an atheist too?


No. I don't label myself. Mr Harris says he's on a spiritual path. Metaphorically so am I. Is it the same path? Are any two people on the same path? How could they be given that each of us is unique. So, Sam Harris is on a unique spiritual path and so am I. In that sense we're fellow travelers on the same path.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: The symbolic world

Postby Meno_ » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:14 am

Yes and no.
Transsubstation is a Catholic form of energy transfer.
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Re: The symbolic world

Postby phoneutria » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:23 am

Mad Man P wrote:Wow, I see religion really helped you reach a state of enlightenment.
While your vitriolic view of what it means to be an atheist is a great showcase for the kind of "fairness and honesty" you've acquired as a person of faith... allow me to retort

While you marvel at a single book in the library of life trying to find all the answers within it, nay within yourself as you interpret it...
The rest of us unenlightened types tend to read the book, then move on to the next, taking in wisdom and knowledge wherever it may be found.
Whether in a dusty old tome written by ignorant bronze age people or a children's book written by ignorant popstars... It hardly matters where you find it
I don't run around calling myself a Zoroastrian because I found wisdom in the stories...
Took the wisdom, dumped the nonsense... baby saved, bathwater gone.
You keep yapping about the damn baby as though it's some great mystery how to save it, I suspect because you don't want to get rid of the bathwater.


cool now write all that again except with the knowledge that you are not talking to a "person of faith" and none of that applies to me
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Re: The symbolic world

Postby phoneutria » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:32 am

also what's so vitriolic about my post?
did I say anything about your mother?
we're just shootin' the shit here man
don't assume the worst
just cuz i call you bitch sometimes it don't mean i don't love you
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Re: The symbolic world

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:32 am

Meno_ wrote:Yes and no.
Transsubstation is a Catholic form of energy transfer.


No it's not. The cake and the wine are literally Jesus's body and blood. There is no transfer. There is also no symbolism. They are that.

Maybe the people who invented the ceremony did mean it as a symbol, but the joke's on them. Because that makes it a lie, not a symbol. And anyway, it cannot be a lie.

You simply either believe it or not.

Christians are sneaky. But make no mistake, it is all based on solid Roman ritual. Romans had a strong literal belief in personal Gods. Which is why Catholics also do, or did until recently. Jews, for example, have a much more... um... Much less conveniently identifiable notion. The old man with a beard is Zeus, not the Jewish God.

Anyway you all fucking protestants and your fucking idol hate. You are all fascists. What's it to you if it pleases me to worship an idol? Jesus Christ.

And Mad Man P still hasn't addressed this: that if religion is all fiction and "just art," than so is anything else. Anything. Prove me wrong type thing.
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Re: The symbolic world

Postby Meno_ » Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:07 am

Yes and no.
Transsubstantiation is a Catholic form of energy transfer.
Where the blood and body of Christ is transferred to all believers. But in it's symbolic form, can be extended into the transvaluation of an ideally exclusive ownership toward acceptance by all bidders to faith. Since religious dogma always coincided with the political arena, the Marxian dialectic consumed Hegel's ' spirit' likewise.

That consumption did not negate the ideal Platonic State, it incorporated it made it a consumed product.

Energy transfer incorporated the old, within the bowels of the new.

It conformed the two idols into an objective pre-confirmed idol, to be sure, even by default , for the sake of expediency.
Last edited by Meno_ on Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The symbolic world

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:09 am

- edit- wait I may have rushed

- edit -

I mean it's still not correct, it's not energy that is transferred. That is a scientific notion that didn't even exist when the ceremony was created.

But yeah, that was scholarly enough.
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Re: The symbolic world

Postby Meno_ » Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:12 am

Pedro I Rengel wrote:-edit- wait I may have rushed




Why is this making stuff up? It is a fact even to imply that drinking human blood and eating human flesh is a barbaric , vampiristically sacrifice. Someone on these boards intimated exactly that.
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Re: The symbolic world

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:18 am

It would have been making stuff up if you had said that energy is somehow transferred to the cake and the wine, instead of them simply being the body and the blood. Upon careful reading, I realized that is not what you said.

Whether you consider it barbaric or not has no incidence on the truth value of it.
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Re: The symbolic world

Postby Meno_ » Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:19 am

No excuses for trying logically sequential summations, after all old frameworks jump in axiomatically programmed.

But it is becoming more appearent that the politically conflated contexts, are seeking characters to form models that feature a reactionary reflection, especially as certain limits ars under siege.
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Re: The symbolic world

Postby Meno_ » Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:21 am

Pedro I Rengel wrote:It would have been making stuff up if you had said that energy is somehow transferred to the cake and the wine, instead of them simply being the body and the blood. Upon careful reading, I realized that is not what you said.

Whether you consider it barbaric or not has no incidence on the truth value of it.



Barbaric in the sense it is reactionary to an undefined limit, without moralistic evaluation.
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Re: The symbolic world

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:24 am

Meno_ wrote:
Pedro I Rengel wrote:It would have been making stuff up if you had said that energy is somehow transferred to the cake and the wine, instead of them simply being the body and the blood. Upon careful reading, I realized that is not what you said.

Whether you consider it barbaric or not has no incidence on the truth value of it.



Barbaric in the sense it is reactionary to an undefined limit, without moralistic evaluation.


Yes, exactly, no truth value.
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Re: The symbolic world

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:26 am

Meno_ wrote:No excuses for trying logically sequential summations, after all old frameworks jump in axiomatically programmed.

But it is becoming more appearent that the politically conflated contexts, are seeking characters to form models that feature a reactionary reflection, especially as certain limits ars under siege.


Contexts don't get conflated with politics. Politics arises precisely from contexts.
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Re: The symbolic world

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:28 am

Jesus, the original Jesus, Jesus God, wasn't a moral message. He was a religious message.
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Re: The symbolic world

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:29 am

For example, what moral message can possibly be gleaned from his whole episode with The Baptist?
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Re: The symbolic world

Postby Bob » Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:25 am

Meno_ wrote:And it's also amazing how other points of view can so quickly bind into patterns, like steal to a magnet, patterned into composite archytypes, that integrate into what we develop to call the soul

That is why Buddha's trance, under a tree, allegedly for what seems like an interminable time, keeps us almost in a trance

But then, it is also possible that some of these 'karmic effects' need not occur in the present lifetime, so much so, that the transition appears uninterrupted.

That makes one life value the wheel of life through a fantastic larger wheel of succeeding metaphors, connecting with it it's own tree (of life)


It looks like a drive shaft of three gears that can be engaged, then again disengaged , but the connections may be forgotten in one sense, but the clutch is always there.[/quote]
Yes, we are attracted to archetypes and patterns because they are part of our own experience of life. We dream about them, witness them in others and we also take on various behaviours with which identify. Stories that have archetypes as characters are easier to connect with.

The Buddha myth has been compared with the creation myth inasmuch as Gautama is confined in a protected space, like the garden of Eden, and then breaks out in search of meaning. We can all identify with that because it also describes what many of us experience when growing up. Buddha, of course, takes it a step higher and awakes fully, whereas we tend to like the half-awake state.
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Re: The symbolic world

Postby Bob » Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:32 am

Ecmandu wrote:I don’t believe in god, however, on this vein, I’m in complete agreement when it comes to symbols.

I think our minds are sick (even mine) and I think the mind heals naturally with as little stimulus as possible.

Symbols jar the mind with overstimulation.

I just wear shirts, pants and shoes that have no messages. You wouldn’t ever catch me with a crucifix or Star of David or a yammika (sp?).

I think that the less natural we are, the sicker that we are. That’s my take even as an atheist.


… and yet our lives are full of symbols, even if we choose clothing with no symbols or refuse to wear symbols. Even the way we dress, the state of our room, the car we drive, and other aspects of life send a message out to others, and is in this way indicates, signifies, or is understood as representing an idea, object, or relationship.

I don’t see how this has anything to do with being sick or not. It is just the way we are made up.
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
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Re: The symbolic world

Postby Bob » Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:38 am

phoneutria wrote: i gotta say though
it is also not fiction
as in it is not pulled out of thin air
religions, as subsets of culture
are knowledge that humans as a species have deemed important to preserve
because the stories represented by these symbols are a reflection of our history
they demonstrate, for example, that fairness and honesty are useful values and should be observed
because holding that to be true brought us to where we are
our stories, religious or not, contain the strategies that have assisted the thriving of our species

Agreed

phoneutria wrote: which brings me once again to tell you that you missed the point
the OP presents the notion that enlightment and science
brought on the awareness that religious scripture are not literal truths
so as a non believer you rid yourself of religion
but along with it you also rid yourself of the symbols that precede all religions
and are deeply associated with the evolutionary development of our psyche
so you end up with this big hole inside you where your psyche should connect to your consciousness
cuz you don't have any fucking symbols anymore to help make that connection
all you have is Marvel superhero stories
to make you almost tear up a bit for a moment before you go to the next distraction
and then you just live your life filling your time with bullshit because everything is meaningless

Spot on …
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
TS Eliot
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Re: The symbolic world

Postby Bob » Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:44 am

felix dakat wrote:Harris has a book out entitled "Waking Up: A Guide to Spirituality Without Religion." I'll bet that wok-seared fish and shrimp cakes with ogo-tomato relish he wrote about in his satirical piece would really wake up one's taste buds!

I haven't read the book but his publicist says "From multiple New York Times best-selling author, neuroscientist, and "new atheist" Sam Harris, Waking Up is for the 30 percent of Americans who follow no religion, but who suspect that Jesus, Buddha, Lao Tzu, Rumi and the other saints and sages of history could not have all been epileptics, schizophrenics, or frauds." Jesus, Buddha, Lao Tzu, Rumi! Hey those are some of the same guys I look to for my "version of Christianity"!

And, we are told that Harris writes “A middle path exists between making religion out of spiritual life and having no spiritual life at all.” Sounds to me like Mr. Harris and I are fellow travelers on the "path."

I can understand Harris though, because if you literally believe what Evangelicals and militant Muslims believe, there is enough explosive content there to destroy civilisation as we know it.

His ideas though, contradict his needs and so he has to come up with something that is like religion but not religion. I can understand that.
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
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Re: The symbolic world

Postby Dan~ » Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:24 am

I wonder if the objects we make names for are also symbols.
They are definitely subject to a perspective.

Also i believe the lord's evening meal was symbolic.
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Re: The symbolic world

Postby Bob » Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:51 am

Dan~ wrote:I wonder if the objects we make names for are also symbols.
They are definitely subject to a perspective.

Also i believe the lord's evening meal was symbolic.

Yes indeed, Jonathan Pageau has the term "symbolic truth" which I find helpful.

Names are just labels, and therefore also symbolic in nature.
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