The symbolic world

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Re: The symbolic world

Postby felix dakat » Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:37 am

Mad Man P-- It's your proposal so addressing my responses to "I" seems appropriate unless you claim to represent a collective "we".
Is your plan to export Denmark's socio-political system to the rest of the world? If so, how?
Did you know that according to Wikipedia 75.8% of the Danes profess to be Christian?
Do you think that Leftists in America haven't working toward something like that end (social democracy?) for over a century?
Is persuading people to abandon their religion part of your agenda?
And remind me again, why is it you want to change the world?
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: The symbolic world

Postby Mad Man P » Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:46 pm

felix dakat wrote:Your "we have to engineer a circumstance..." strikes me as an "if I were King for a Day" fantasy.
Mad Man P-- It's your proposal so addressing my responses to "I" seems appropriate unless you claim to represent a collective "we".


I believe I qualify as a member of the human species... so when speaking of that species I am permitted to use "we" and "us"
But since it's the proposal itself that you are intending to ascribe to my personal fantasy then why change the collective within that proposal/fantasy to suddenly consist of only myself?
Seems like a desperate attempt to read some self-aggrandizing fantasy fulfillment into an obvious statement of fact about the human species...
I'm not even gonna ask for a charitable interpretation, as admittedly I've not been the most diplomatic conversation partner... and so hardly inspire that reading.
But it seems fair to ask you not grasp at straws, at least.

felix dakat wrote:Is your plan to export Denmark's socio-political system to the rest of the world? If so, how?
Do you think that leftists in America haven't working toward something like that for over a century?
Is persuading people to abandon their religion part of your agenda?


I was planning to calmly, with perhaps a dash of playful condescension, make good points and allow the example of my country to attest to them... then see what happens.
But for now, I'll settle for having proven your presupposition wrong... where the alternative to religious stories taking center stage is a utopian pipe dream.

Now if you're actually asking me to tell you the secret sauce we used to make this magical fantasy come true and how it might be exported elsewhere.
I'm not entirely certain how, or even if, we should export anything anywhere... but perhaps a few method by which it might happen that isn't a hostile act or manipulative...
Is in conversation, preferably less hostile than this one, or by being an example that the rest of the world might wish to follow.

As for how we got to this place, I'm fairly certain the cause is cultural... we're mainly pragmatists, not idealists.
I don't know if most of us even know to call ourselves pragmatists... but that's what we are, by and large.

Loyalty or even commitment to ideas or books, gods or even the damned nation itself is an unusual sight to see here... they are all tools, there to serve the people, not the other way around.
If you articulate some useful insights into how we might live or behave that, if adopted, would serve us well, we're in!
We don't give a damn if you made it up, or if Jesus said it or if it was in a kids coloring book... It's not good advice because of who said it, it's good advice if and only if it works well for us.
When the priority is aiding people flourish and making life more fulfilling, then who said what in which religious story is made next to irrelevant to everyone.
The conversation is about who it helps, who it hurts and if it makes for a better society to live in... no one cares if Jesus approves because no one needs to care.
There are no stupid questions, just stupid people.
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Re: The symbolic world

Postby felix dakat » Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:01 pm

In politics I favor pragmatism in service of values like compassion and justice over ideology. Do you see yourself as speaking for the 75% of Danes who identify themselves as Christian?
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: The symbolic world

Postby Mad Man P » Tue Mar 23, 2021 7:17 am

felix dakat wrote:In politics I favor pragmatism in service of values like compassion and justice over ideology.

How is that not another form of ideology?
It seems to me the service is to "compassion" and "justice" whether or not it benefits anyone... and then it really matters how you define those.
What if mercy or forgiveness serves PEOPLE better than justice in a given circumstance?
What if compassion prevents necessary action in a crisis?

felix dakat wrote:Do you see yourself as speaking for the 75% of Danes who identify themselves as Christian?


:lol:

You don't know what you're saying.
The way it works here the church was not separated from the state the way it was in america and elsewhere.
Churches are funded through a church tax and every citizen is by default assumed to belong to the people's church unless they specifically request to be designated otherwise.

I am currently counted as a member of the people's church... so I am part of that 75% you think I shouldn't speak for, but of those 75% only around 5% actually attend any services.
Only about 20% of the population here identifies as religious (and that's including the muslim immigrants)
While I could go in and sign out of paying the church tax, and end my membership, I don't want to.
Most people, like myself, don't want to see the churches torn down or abandoned for lack of funding, so we pay the tax to keep them.
They are part of our history.
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Re: The symbolic world

Postby felix dakat » Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:34 pm

I don't think what I presented is an ideology. Can you prove that it is? I see pragmatism as the antithesis of ideology.

It appears to me that because you claim to be a member of Denmark's state Church you think you are qualified to represent their beliefs despite the fact that the statistical percentages you presented already shows them to be a diverse group. I suppose that those people have a range of different beliefs some of which are unlike yours. Therefore I don't think you're qualified to represent them. Unless of course they elected you to do so.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: The symbolic world

Postby Mad Man P » Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:26 pm

felix dakat wrote:I don't think what I presented is an ideology. Can you prove that it is? I see pragmatism as the antithesis of ideology.

It appears to me that because you claim to be a member of Denmark's state Church you think you are qualified to represent their beliefs despite the fact that the statistical percentages you presented already shows them to be a diverse group. I suppose that those people have a range of different beliefs some of which are unlike yours. Therefore I don't think you're qualified to represent them. Unless of course they elected you to do so.


Dude... are you high?
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Re: The symbolic world

Postby felix dakat » Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:58 pm

Mad Man P wrote:
felix dakat wrote:I don't think what I presented is an ideology. Can you prove that it is? I see pragmatism as the antithesis of ideology.

It appears to me that because you claim to be a member of Denmark's state Church you think you are qualified to represent their beliefs despite the fact that the statistical percentages you presented already shows them to be a diverse group. I suppose that those people have a range of different beliefs some of which are unlike yours. Therefore I don't think you're qualified to represent them. Unless of course they elected you to do so.


Dude... are you high?


That's an ad hominem argument in the form of an insinuating question.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: The symbolic world

Postby felix dakat » Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:46 pm

In keeping with Bob's original intention for this thread, let's take a look at "The Language of Creation Cosmic Symbolism in Genesis" by Jonathan Pageau's brother Matthieu. Pageau proposes that traditional cosmology differed from modern science in that it described reality in terms of symbols instead of in terms of atoms, energy or mechanical causality. He asserts that the specialty of modern science is the conceptualization of things as meaningless matter and mindless causality whereas traditional cosmology interprets "every phenomenon as the manifestation of spiritual truth."
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: The symbolic world

Postby felix dakat » Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:50 pm

felix dakat wrote:In keeping with Bob's original intention for this thread, let's take a look at "The Language of Creation Cosmic Symbolism in Genesis" by Jonathan Pageau's brother Matthieu. Pageau proposes that traditional cosmology differed from modern science in that it described reality in terms of symbols instead of in terms of atoms, energy or mechanical causality. He asserts that the specialty of modern science is the conceptualization of things as meaningless matter and mindless causality whereas traditional cosmology interprets "every phenomenon as the manifestation of spiritual truth."


According to Pageau, at a metacognitive level, the Genesis story of the Fall matches the plight of humanity since the scientific revolution. When mankind fell their eyes were open to "a strange universe devoid of spiritual meaning". They "saw their previous worldview as somewhat illusory". But, while the technical discoveries of science seem to have debunked traditional cosmology, they ironically proved its significance at the level of symbolic interpretation.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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