The symbolic world

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Re: The symbolic world

Postby felix dakat » Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:17 am

Yeah I wasn't aware that Freke is a YouTube guru. Like you said to me I'm reading so many books and watching so many videos, I don't think I can take on another at the moment. If there's a dearth of meaning in the secular world these days, there's also a glut of putative meaning on the internet. I'm still taking in a lot of Pageau and Vervaeke. Peterson's trying to make a comeback with another book. The way I see it, the symbolic world turns out to be an elaborated mandala of wholeness, "the structure of reality" as Pageau likes to put it. It is ontological in the sense that it articulates the structural unity of a way of being in the world.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: The symbolic world

Postby felix dakat » Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:04 pm

Symbolism was much in evidence on Wednesday when the mob attacked the capitol in Washington. The Congressional leaders were awakened to their heroic duty by the defilement of the capitol, the sacred center of democracy by the chaotic mob from the margins of society summoned by deluded, power-drunk President Trump.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: The symbolic world

Postby felix dakat » Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:49 am

The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: The symbolic world

Postby Bob » Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:58 am

felix dakat wrote:Symbolism was much in evidence on Wednesday when the mob attacked the capitol in Washington. The Congressional leaders were awakened to their heroic duty by the defilement of the capitol, the sacred center of democracy by the chaotic mob from the margins of society summoned by deluded, power-drunk President Trump.

The numbers of groups involved show that this had been something that had been planned since the outcome of the vote was clear, with knowledge of Trump, and was intended to be far worse than it turned out to be. It was fortunate that the people in the capitol moved so swiftly and there were less people involved in the insurrection than originally planned. This could be a good sign that people on the right have begun to realise that this man is anything but a conservative. He does the things he says the left are doing, but I think that he isn't the brain behind it - there are others.
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
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Re: The symbolic world

Postby Bob » Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:16 am

Like all concepts in ancient cosmology, space and time exist at different scales of reality. Therefore, the dominion of space may be symbolized by a box, a house, or simply as dry land on the cosmic scale. Similarly, the dominion of time may be symbolized by flooded versions of the above, such as a cup filled with wine, a flooded house, or a flooded world on the cosmic scale.

In this context, water symbolizes the confusion that mediates between heaven and earth, and the transformative influences of change. Importantly, this does not refer to any change whatsoever, but to losing the agreement between meaning and fact. In practice, this means falling away from familiarity into a world of uncertainty where everything appears foreign and strange.
Pageau, Matthieu. The Language of Creation: Cosmic Symbolism in Genesis (S.110). Kindle-Version.

Reading this I can’t help but think that we are in a time of change in which so much is swimming in a sea of uncertainty. There is a lack of solid ground for people to stand on and they grab anything that is floating by. The times are the result of the loss of substance in peoples lives and the rise of shallow soaps and bickering social media in the West as a diminished alternative.

The problem is that people will try to find a way ahead, even if it means hanging on to some conspiracy theory and finding an enemy. Consolidating around something meaningful became increasingly difficult with the Catholic Church losing ground because of the scandals, the impact of Islamic terror, “New Atheists” going on their bitter rampage, the spread of the evangelical as a fight against these developments, and the political agendas of prominent persons. What is the solution?

When reality is dominated by the spatial pillar, there is a clear connection between facts and their spiritual meaning, and life in the universe has purpose and direction. Conversely, whenever the bridge between heaven and earth is lost, spiritual principles fail to answer the enigmas of corporeal reality, and practical reality no longer expresses spiritual law (the facts no longer support the theory).

In the Bible, transitioning from the dominion of space to that of time is called “losing the land” and is experienced as “going into exile” and then “wandering in strange lands.” This comes in contrast with “seizing the land,” which is experienced as “returning from exile” and then “inhabiting the homeland.”
Pageau, Matthieu. The Language of Creation: Cosmic Symbolism in Genesis (S.110). Kindle-Version.

The question that arises now is how purpose and direction can be found without falling into the traps laid out before us. Finding the bridge between heaven and earth should be easy for Christians, albeit they have become a motely crew, split into factions and sides according to their tastes, unable to find the common ground – except in locating a common enemy.

The fascinating thing about the Gospels, even if you think of them as compositions of faith, is that the symbolism that is rife in them assists in finding that bridge. Christ is the model of holiness – that is a centre of the wheel around which we all revolve. This centre draws people together, rather than proposing a struggle against, a jihad, and lays down the rule of love – something very lacking at present. The self-inflicted exile is resolved by a Father who comes running towards the prodigal son, welcoming him back into the family. The son knew that he had forgone his rights and expected nothing. This is the vision of humility that has become so rare in our present day.
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
TS Eliot
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Re: The symbolic world

Postby felix dakat » Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:20 pm

Bob wrote:
Like all concepts in ancient cosmology, space and time exist at different scales of reality. Therefore, the dominion of space may be symbolized by a box, a house, or simply as dry land on the cosmic scale. Similarly, the dominion of time may be symbolized by flooded versions of the above, such as a cup filled with wine, a flooded house, or a flooded world on the cosmic scale.

In this context, water symbolizes the confusion that mediates between heaven and earth, and the transformative influences of change. Importantly, this does not refer to any change whatsoever, but to losing the agreement between meaning and fact. In practice, this means falling away from familiarity into a world of uncertainty where everything appears foreign and strange.
Pageau, Matthieu. The Language of Creation: Cosmic Symbolism in Genesis (S.110). Kindle-Version.

Reading this I can’t help but think that we are in a time of change in which so much is swimming in a sea of uncertainty. There is a lack of solid ground for people to stand on and they grab anything that is floating by. The times are the result of the loss of substance in peoples lives and the rise of shallow soaps and bickering social media in the West as a diminished alternative.

The problem is that people will try to find a way ahead, even if it means hanging on to some conspiracy theory and finding an enemy. Consolidating around something meaningful became increasingly difficult with the Catholic Church losing ground because of the scandals, the impact of Islamic terror, “New Atheists” going on their bitter rampage, the spread of the evangelical as a fight against these developments, and the political agendas of prominent persons. What is the solution?

When reality is dominated by the spatial pillar, there is a clear connection between facts and their spiritual meaning, and life in the universe has purpose and direction. Conversely, whenever the bridge between heaven and earth is lost, spiritual principles fail to answer the enigmas of corporeal reality, and practical reality no longer expresses spiritual law (the facts no longer support the theory).

In the Bible, transitioning from the dominion of space to that of time is called “losing the land” and is experienced as “going into exile” and then “wandering in strange lands.” This comes in contrast with “seizing the land,” which is experienced as “returning from exile” and then “inhabiting the homeland.”
Pageau, Matthieu. The Language of Creation: Cosmic Symbolism in Genesis (S.110). Kindle-Version.

The question that arises now is how purpose and direction can be found without falling into the traps laid out before us. Finding the bridge between heaven and earth should be easy for Christians, albeit they have become a motely crew, split into factions and sides according to their tastes, unable to find the common ground – except in locating a common enemy.

The fascinating thing about the Gospels, even if you think of them as compositions of faith, is that the symbolism that is rife in them assists in finding that bridge. Christ is the model of holiness – that is a centre of the wheel around which we all revolve. This centre draws people together, rather than proposing a struggle against, a jihad, and lays down the rule of love – something very lacking at present. The self-inflicted exile is resolved by a Father who comes running towards the prodigal son, welcoming him back into the family. The son knew that he had forgone his rights and expected nothing. This is the vision of humility that has become so rare in our present day.


Excellent. It appears that you are receiving a restored vision of the structure of reality. That's where we each need to begin. Without the vision people perish spiritually. Then we can take baby steps to live according to the vision we receive. To be able to live like this is a blessing in this time of the crisis of meaning. The logos is the light that shines in the darkness and gives meaning to everything. On a depth level it shines in the heart to give insight into our deepest parts to show us who we really are and how to proceed. The impact we can have on the world depends on where we are in the great chain of being. Jesus washed the disciple's feet. They didn't understand what he was doing. He was reconfiguring the world.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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