Hitler was genocidal and evil. Yahweh’s genocides are good;

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Re: Hitler was genocidal and evil. Yahweh’s genocides are go

Postby iambiguous » Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:06 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote: Sure....
this...
And, come on, why on earth do you suppose religions were invented if not to insist that not only is there a reason for Nazis and for everything else but you damn well better accept our reasons...or else.


is not a value judgment, it is an assertion of fact.


No, to assert it as a fact would, in my view, be more like this:

Beyond any and all doubt, religions were invented to insist that only those who think like they do can differentiate right from wrong behavior on this side of the grave in order attain immortality and salvation on the other side. And if you don't agree with this you are necessarily wrong.

Instead, I'm merely noting that given my own assessment of religion down through the ages, it seems reasonable to me to suggest this. I'm asking others why it might not seem reasonable to them.

Then back to this again:

Karpel Tunnel wrote: In a rhetorical question form, with a period at the end. The issue of the reasons why religions were invented is a question about what is or was factually not about beauty or morals.


Note to others:

Make of this what you will.

Karpel Tunnel wrote: So
Again the irony being that over and again I note that my own value judgments here are no less existential fabrications rooted in dasein. That I am not able to demonstrate that all rational men and women are obligated to think like I do. That, given the way I do think about all of this, "I" am a fractured and fragmented individual who has thought himself into believing that his own existence is essentially meaningless and that all too soon "I" will topple over into the abyss that is oblivion.


Is irrelevent, since it has to do with value judgments. what is good and bad. Not what is or was or isn't or wasn't.


Note to others:

Same here. If you think he is making a really, really important point about my argument above, so be it.

Then, as far as you're concerned, he wins and I lose. Right?

And, again, what becomes particularly surreal here is how this exchange itself might be construed as an attempt to hijack the thread. #-o
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Hitler was genocidal and evil. Yahweh’s genocides are go

Postby iambiguous » Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:41 pm

First, of course, I want to apologize for hijacking the thread. I actually didn't think that I was doing that given my interest in things like genocide on this side of the grave and how that factors into immortality and salvation on the other side of it. But I have since been informed by KT that I have hijacked it. And, sure, maybe on a subconscious or unconscious level, I have.

These things get tricky .

iambiguous wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
iambiguous wrote:On the other hand, few doubt the actual existence of Hitler.

On the other other hand, some can't square the idea of any God with Hitler. Unless He is Himself a sadistic monster.


That seems to fit Yahweh. No?

Regards
DL


Oh, yeah, definitely. But then Yahweh is said to act in mysterious ways. Ways that are well beyond the capacity of mere mortals to comprehend.

And the beauty of either a leap of religious faith or a staunch belief in a God/the God, is nothing beyond that ever has to be demonstrated. It's the faith and the belief itself that motivate the behaviors that bring about the actual consequences for all the rest of us.

And, just out of curiosity, what is your own religious path, if any?

And wouldn't any path to any God or No God religious denomination, have to account for things like Hitler?

That's why some like Harold Kushner argue that one explanation for this is that God is loving, just and merciful, but He lacks the actual power to bring it about.


Greatest I am wrote: Religious people of poor moral judgement will lie quite easily about a god they do not know.

As to me. I am a Gnostic Christian that came out of the Catholic/Christian tradition. I use the more mystical writings put into Jesus' mouth.


Okay, then given how you construe God and religion, how do you factor things like the Holocaust into human interactions on both sides of the grave. Is your God not omnipotent, not omniscient? Do you explain thinks like Nazis as a manifestation of your God's "mysterious ways"?

How might the Second World War itself be explained given your own understanding of "the mystical writings put into Jesus' mouth." What are your "natural beliefs" about things like natural disasters or global pandemics or "extinction events" that visit our planet periodically?

On the other hand, sure, if this is not something you wish to pursue here, fine, no problem.

I can only note that, given what is at stake on both sides of the grave, for me these are the things that would seem to be the most pressing things to discuss. The existential relationship between morality and immortality. And discussions that revolve around theodicy. Or contemplating God in regards to things like free will, the meaning of existence itself, or which came first, God creating the laws of matter or the laws of matter creating God.

As for those who share the views of folks like Alan Watts and Joseph Campbell, the same thing. Given my own interest in and "take" on God and religion, how might they react to the views I express in my post here in in my signature threads.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Hitler was genocidal and evil. Yahweh’s genocides are go

Postby felix dakat » Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:42 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
All we can do is put words in front of our interlocutors. The rest is to them not being so mentally lazy.

We call many, in the biblical sense, but most minds are fixed into their patterns by the time they get here.

Aberrant conditioning at it's worse.

Regards
DL


"Many are called but few aren't chosen". Is that the verse you are alluding to?
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: Hitler was genocidal and evil. Yahweh’s genocides are go

Postby Greatest I am » Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:48 pm

iambiguous wrote:
Okay, then given how you construe God and religion, how do you factor things like the Holocaust into human interactions on both sides of the grave. Is your God not omnipotent, not omniscient? Do you explain thinks like Nazis as a manifestation of your God's "mysterious ways"?

How might the Second World War itself be explained given your own understanding of "the mystical writings put into Jesus' mouth." What are your "natural beliefs" about things like natural disasters or global pandemics or "extinction events" that visit our planet periodically?

On the other hand, sure, if this is not something you wish to pursue here, fine, no problem.

I can only note that, given what is at stake on both sides of the grave, for me these are the things that would seem to be the most pressing things to discuss. The existential relationship between morality and immortality. And discussions that revolve around theodicy. Or contemplating God in regards to things like free will, the meaning of existence itself, or which came first, God creating the laws of matter or the laws of matter creating God.

As for those who share the views of folks like Alan Watts and Joseph Campbell, the same thing. Given my own interest in and "take" on God and religion, how might they react to the views I express in my post here in in my signature threads.


I construe the holocausts as normal outcome for those who are fascist thinkers.

Without Christianity and the Vatican Bank, Hitler may not have been able to do what he did, nor would his top brass not escaped without the Vatican's help.

All the god religions are fascist.

Regards
DL
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