Hitler was genocidal and evil. Yahweh’s genocides are good;

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Hitler was genocidal and evil. Yahweh’s genocides are good;

Postby Greatest I am » Thu Sep 03, 2020 6:35 pm

Hitler was genocidal and evil. Yahweh’s genocides are good; say Christians, Muslims & Jews! -- ?

I must be reading the religionist nice guys wrong. Religions are supposed to be religions of peace. Not of war. Genocide is a war god’s tool.

I do not want to believe that my parents who ere Christians, would condone such crimes against humanity going on today.

I am sure you feel the same way for your parents.

Do as your religion bid you do. Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

Please show your love and correct me by proving me wrong and admit you hate all genocidal characters.

I must be wrong.

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Re: Hitler was genocidal and evil. Yahweh’s genocides are go

Postby iambiguous » Thu Sep 03, 2020 6:40 pm

On the other hand, few doubt the actual existence of Hitler.

On the other other hand, some can't square the idea of any God with Hitler. Unless He is Himself a sadistic monster.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: Hitler was genocidal and evil. Yahweh’s genocides are go

Postby Dan~ » Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:01 pm

God is always with the largest army.

Who ever is in control, controls scripture, interpretation and even the writing itself.

So when a war bugger comes up, with political power, he can twist a religion into virtually anything.

Jew-God can kill all the Egyptian babies and still be a holy wonderful God.
I'm talking about the plagues of Egypt.

Christianity was a mutation of Judaism.
Jews have a history of often becoming corrupt.
Sorry, but it's true.
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Re: Hitler was genocidal and evil. Yahweh’s genocides are go

Postby Greatest I am » Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:06 am

iambiguous wrote:On the other hand, few doubt the actual existence of Hitler.

On the other other hand, some can't square the idea of any God with Hitler. Unless He is Himself a sadistic monster.


That seems to fit Yahweh. No?

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Re: Hitler was genocidal and evil. Yahweh’s genocides are go

Postby Greatest I am » Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:09 am

Dan~ wrote:God is always with the largest army.

Who ever is in control, controls scripture, interpretation and even the writing itself.

So when a war bugger comes up, with political power, he can twist a religion into virtually anything.

Jew-God can kill all the Egyptian babies and still be a holy wonderful God.
I'm talking about the plagues of Egypt.

Christianity was a mutation of Judaism.
Jews have a history of often becoming corrupt.
Sorry, but it's true.


Jews have not corrupted their religion the way Christian have, IMO.

Even today, it is a way more intelligent ideology than Christianity has.

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Re: Hitler was genocidal and evil. Yahweh’s genocides are go

Postby iambiguous » Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:57 am

Greatest I am wrote:
iambiguous wrote:On the other hand, few doubt the actual existence of Hitler.

On the other other hand, some can't square the idea of any God with Hitler. Unless He is Himself a sadistic monster.


That seems to fit Yahweh. No?

Regards
DL


Oh, yeah, definitely. But then Yahweh is said to act in mysterious ways. Ways that are well beyond the capacity of mere mortals to comprehend.

And the beauty of either a leap of religious faith or a staunch belief in a God/the God, is nothing beyond that ever has to be demonstrated. It's the faith and the belief itself that motivate the behaviors that bring about the actual consequences for all the rest of us.

And, just out of curiosity, what is your own religious path, if any?

And wouldn't any path to any God or No God religious denomination, have to account for things like Hitler?

That's why some like Harold Kushner argue that one explanation for this is that God is loving, just and merciful, but He lacks the actual power to bring it about.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: Hitler was genocidal and evil. Yahweh’s genocides are go

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:38 pm

Greatest I am wrote:Jews have not corrupted their religion the way Christian have, IMO.

Even today, it is a way more intelligent ideology than Christianity has.

Regards
DL

Yahweh is a Tanakh character and when Christians want to make war or kill they go back to the Jewish Bible, Jesus saying a bunch of inconvenient stuff, so I can't really see how the Jews have no corrupted their religion, given what bothers you. You are referring to Yahweh.

Of course religions are not about peace and love, and they didn't pretend to be, in general, until the monotheisms came in with all their contradictions. Pagans had gods of war and infighting and conflicts even in 'the heavens'. They had human gods.
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Re: Hitler was genocidal and evil. Yahweh’s genocides are go

Postby felix dakat » Fri Sep 04, 2020 4:51 pm

The God of the Hebrew Bible not only wipes out all but a small remnant of living things by the flood, he commands that the Israelites commit genocide against the people of Canaan. When the chosen King, Saul, fails to comply with God's genocidal commandment, it results in his replacement as king by David.

Christian theologians and Talmudic scholars employed various hermeneutic strategies for rationalizing God's Old Testament behavior. The early Gnostic viewed Yahweh as the evil demiurge who put himself in the place of the real God, who presumably is identified with the Platonic Good and thus would be free of anything like genocidal tendencies.

Bible historians describe the Hebrew scriptures as evidence of a conception of God that evolves from that of a tribal deity toward that of a universal God. The process of conceiving of God in a way that is universal and that everyone can subscribe to, if possible, hasn't yet been fully realized.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Hitler was genocidal and evil. Yahweh’s genocides are go

Postby iambiguous » Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:37 pm

felix dakat wrote: The God of the Hebrew Bible not only wipes out all but a small remnant of living things by the flood, he commands that the Israelites commit genocide against the people of Canaan. When the chosen King, Saul, fails to comply with God's genocidal commandment, it results in his replacement as king by David.


This is than just rationalized as the part where the faithful should fear God as well as love Him.

felix dakat wrote: The early Gnostic viewed Yahweh as the evil demiurge who put himself in the place of the real God, who presumably is identified with the Platonic Good and thus would be free of anything like genocidal tendencies.


My point is that whether as an "evil demiurge" or as the "real God", how do the faithful explain things like the Holocaust? Other than as Kushner did. What's left after that other than His "mysterious ways".

Same with the No God Eastern faiths. There they are: Adolph Hitler and his Nazis. How does that factor into "the universe" and its ontological/teleological foundation.

Then the part where whatever someone's beliefs are here, the only way to attain immortality is through one or another religious leap. And that is made to order for rationalizations.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: Hitler was genocidal and evil. Yahweh’s genocides are go

Postby phyllo » Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:08 pm

My point is that whether as an "evil demiurge" or as the "real God", how do the faithful explain things like the Holocaust? Other than as Kushner did. What's left after that other than His "mysterious ways".

Same with the No God Eastern faiths. There they are: Adolph Hitler and his Nazis. How does that factor into "the universe" and its ontological/teleological foundation.
One can say that there is good and bad in the universe. That's just the way it is.

Or one can say that "there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so". That's just the way it is.

Does one need to have a reason why it is so?
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Re: Hitler was genocidal and evil. Yahweh’s genocides are go

Postby iambiguous » Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:07 pm

phyllo wrote:
My point is that whether as an "evil demiurge" or as the "real God", how do the faithful explain things like the Holocaust? Other than as Kushner did. What's left after that other than His "mysterious ways".

Same with the No God Eastern faiths. There they are: Adolph Hitler and his Nazis. How does that factor into "the universe" and its ontological/teleological foundation.
One can say that there is good and bad in the universe. That's just the way it is.

Or one can say that "there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so". That's just the way it is.

Does one need to have a reason why it is so?


Again, the manner in which "I" construe religion down through the ages is that, first and foremost, it revolves around connecting the dots between the behaviors one chooses on this side of the grave as that pertains to the fate of "I" on the other side of the grave.

After all, it's not for nothing that so many religious denominations feel the need to go out and save souls.

Here one can "say" anything. One can "believe" anything. But there either really is a God/the God up there bent on judging what we do down here or there is not.

And, if there is, one way or another the Holocaust figures into it.

And, come on, why on earth do you suppose religions were invented if not to insist that not only is there a reason for Nazis and for everything else but you damn well better accept our reasons...or else.

The "or else" part varying from one denomination to the next. Just as with the part about "Judgment Day".
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: Hitler was genocidal and evil. Yahweh’s genocides are go

Postby phyllo » Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:29 pm

And, if there is, one way or another the Holocaust figures into it.

There is a difference between participating/opposing the Holocaust and explaining why there is a Holocaust. You asked about the latter : "how do the faithful explain things like the Holocaust?"
And, come on, why on earth do you suppose religions were invented if not to insist that not only is there a reason for Nazis and for everything else but you damn well better accept our reasons...or else.
That's your view of religions and everything "damn well better" fit that view ... or else.

It's not my view.
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Re: Hitler was genocidal and evil. Yahweh’s genocides are go

Postby iambiguous » Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:00 pm

phyllo wrote:
And, if there is, one way or another the Holocaust figures into it.

There is a difference between participating/opposing the Holocaust and explaining why there is a Holocaust. You asked about the latter : "how do the faithful explain things like the Holocaust?"


From my perspective, the most important difference of all is still the gap between what any particular individual/mere mortal did to participate in or oppose the Holocaust, and whether or not there is a God/the God up there ready, willing and able to judge it. Same with conflicting explanations. With God there is the official explanation. The only one that counts in regard to your fate on the other side of the grave.

Really, why do you suppose there are millions and millions of religious adherents here on planet Earth who take this part very, very seriously?

Thus...

...why on earth do you suppose religions were invented if not to insist that not only is there a reason for Nazis and for everything else but you damn well better accept our reasons...or else.


phyllo wrote:That's your view of religions and everything "damn well better" fit that view ... or else.

It's not my view.


Huh?

I challenge you [or anyone] to cite a single post of mine in which I argue that others had better share my own view of religion "or else".

Or else what?

Again the irony being that over and again I note that my own value judgments here are no less existential fabrications rooted in dasein. That I am not able to demonstrate that all rational men and women are obligated to think like I do. That, given the way I do think about all of this, "I" am a fractured and fragmented individual who has thought himself into believing that his own existence is essentially meaningless and that all too soon "I" will topple over into the abyss that is oblivion.

Indeed, I'd better come across a frame of mind that changes this...or else. [-o<
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: Hitler was genocidal and evil. Yahweh’s genocides are go

Postby phyllo » Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:30 pm

Huh?

I challenge you [or anyone] to cite a single post of mine in which I argue that others had better share my own view of religion "or else".
Over and over, you try to fit every religion into your preconceived ideas about religion.
Or else what?
Or else ... you don't know what people are talking about. You revert to restatements of your interests. You tell people that they do not need to read your posts or to reply to your posts. You repeat the same questions that you just asked.

You're stuck on a stereotype and you won't budge.
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Re: Hitler was genocidal and evil. Yahweh’s genocides are go

Postby iambiguous » Fri Sep 04, 2020 9:45 pm

phyllo wrote:
Huh?

I challenge you [or anyone] to cite a single post of mine in which I argue that others had better share my own view of religion "or else".
Over and over, you try to fit every religion into your preconceived ideas about religion.


The part you left off:

Again the irony being that over and again I note that my own value judgments here are no less existential fabrications rooted in dasein. That I am not able to demonstrate that all rational men and women are obligated to think like I do. That, given the way I do think about all of this, "I" am a fractured and fragmented individual who has thought himself into believing that his own existence is essentially meaningless and that all too soon "I" will topple over into the abyss that is oblivion.



Or else what?



Larry wrote:Or else ... you don't know what people are talking about. You revert to restatements of your interests. You tell people that they do not need to read your posts or to reply to your posts. You repeat the same questions that you just asked.

You're stuck on a stereotype and you won't budge.


Back into Stooge mode: making me the issue. Making me the problem when communication breaks down.

What's next, Larry, retort mode?

After all, don't I often bring that out in you. And the other two? Or three, if we now count Mo.

On the other hand, what's this kerfuffle next to Hitler's Holocaust and Yahweh's very own genocides?
Last edited by iambiguous on Sat Sep 05, 2020 1:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: Hitler was genocidal and evil. Yahweh’s genocides are go

Postby phyllo » Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:22 pm

Right ... stooges ... who are trying to be helpful.

The fact is that you don't recognize the passive/aggressive ways that you control the discussions, keeping within very confined parameters.

Unfortunately this prevents you from moving away from a limited stereotypical view of religion.

And you won't listen when its pointed out to you.

So there you are.
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Re: Hitler was genocidal and evil. Yahweh’s genocides are go

Postby iambiguous » Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:32 pm

Larry wrote:Right ... stooges ... who are trying to be helpful.

The fact is that you don't recognize the passive/aggressive ways that you control the discussions, keeping within very confined parameters.

Unfortunately this prevents you from moving away from a limited stereotypical view of religion.

And you won't listen when its pointed out to you.

So there you are.


Moe? Curly? Anything to add? :wink:
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Re: Hitler was genocidal and evil. Yahweh’s genocides are go

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:46 am

Sure....
this...
And, come on, why on earth do you suppose religions were invented if not to insist that not only is there a reason for Nazis and for everything else but you damn well better accept our reasons...or else.


is not a value judgment, it is an assertion of fact. In a rhetorical question form, with a period at the end. The issue of the reasons why religions were invented is a question about what is or was factually not about beauty or morals.

So
Again the irony being that over and again I note that my own value judgments here are no less existential fabrications rooted in dasein. That I am not able to demonstrate that all rational men and women are obligated to think like I do. That, given the way I do think about all of this, "I" am a fractured and fragmented individual who has thought himself into believing that his own existence is essentially meaningless and that all too soon "I" will topple over into the abyss that is oblivion.


Is irrelevent, since it has to do with value judgments. what is good and bad. Not what is or was or isn't or wasn't.

For a discussion of how iamb is trying to hijack this thread....

https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1#p2775060
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Re: Hitler was genocidal and evil. Yahweh’s genocides are go

Postby Greatest I am » Sat Sep 05, 2020 2:24 pm

iambiguous wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
iambiguous wrote:On the other hand, few doubt the actual existence of Hitler.

On the other other hand, some can't square the idea of any God with Hitler. Unless He is Himself a sadistic monster.


That seems to fit Yahweh. No?

Regards
DL


Oh, yeah, definitely. But then Yahweh is said to act in mysterious ways. Ways that are well beyond the capacity of mere mortals to comprehend.

And the beauty of either a leap of religious faith or a staunch belief in a God/the God, is nothing beyond that ever has to be demonstrated. It's the faith and the belief itself that motivate the behaviors that bring about the actual consequences for all the rest of us.

And, just out of curiosity, what is your own religious path, if any?

And wouldn't any path to any God or No God religious denomination, have to account for things like Hitler?

That's why some like Harold Kushner argue that one explanation for this is that God is loving, just and merciful, but He lacks the actual power to bring it about.


Religious people of poor moral judgement will lie quite easily about a god they do not know.

As to me. I am a Gnostic Christian that came out of the Catholic/Christian tradition. I use the more mystical writings put into Jesus' mouth.

Those fit, given that we hold no supernatural beliefs.

Here is the real way to salvation that Jesus taught.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbes ... r_embedded

Joseph Campbell shows the same esoteric ecumenist idea in this link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGx4IlppSgU

The bible just plainly says to put away the things of children. The supernatural and literal reading of myths.

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Re: Hitler was genocidal and evil. Yahweh’s genocides are go

Postby Greatest I am » Sat Sep 05, 2020 2:27 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:Jews have not corrupted their religion the way Christian have, IMO.

Even today, it is a way more intelligent ideology than Christianity has.

Regards
DL

Yahweh is a Tanakh character and when Christians want to make war or kill they go back to the Jewish Bible, Jesus saying a bunch of inconvenient stuff, so I can't really see how the Jews have no corrupted their religion, given what bothers you. You are referring to Yahweh.

Of course religions are not about peace and love, and they didn't pretend to be, in general, until the monotheisms came in with all their contradictions. Pagans had gods of war and infighting and conflicts even in 'the heavens'. They had human gods.


Human created gods are all we have ever had.

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Re: Hitler was genocidal and evil. Yahweh’s genocides are go

Postby Greatest I am » Sat Sep 05, 2020 2:33 pm

felix dakat wrote:The God of the Hebrew Bible not only wipes out all but a small remnant of living things by the flood, he commands that the Israelites commit genocide against the people of Canaan. When the chosen King, Saul, fails to comply with God's genocidal commandment, it results in his replacement as king by David.

Christian theologians and Talmudic scholars employed various hermeneutic strategies for rationalizing God's Old Testament behavior. The early Gnostic viewed Yahweh as the evil demiurge who put himself in the place of the real God, who presumably is identified with the Platonic Good and thus would be free of anything like genocidal tendencies.

Bible historians describe the Hebrew scriptures as evidence of a conception of God that evolves from that of a tribal deity toward that of a universal God. The process of conceiving of God in a way that is universal and that everyone can subscribe to, if possible, hasn't yet been fully realized.


Well put and accurate enough but I do not agree with your conclusion.

I see Gnostic Christianity's ideology as compatible or being able to work with all thinking systems.

It is all a matter of recognizing the archetypal characteristics of the imagined god.

If you do not know of it, it is not surprising. Christian inquisitions were quick to kill off the better ideologies.

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Re: Hitler was genocidal and evil. Yahweh’s genocides are go

Postby felix dakat » Sat Sep 05, 2020 4:40 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
felix dakat wrote:The God of the Hebrew Bible not only wipes out all but a small remnant of living things by the flood, he commands that the Israelites commit genocide against the people of Canaan. When the chosen King, Saul, fails to comply with God's genocidal commandment, it results in his replacement as king by David.

Christian theologians and Talmudic scholars employed various hermeneutic strategies for rationalizing God's Old Testament behavior. The early Gnostic viewed Yahweh as the evil demiurge who put himself in the place of the real God, who presumably is identified with the Platonic Good and thus would be free of anything like genocidal tendencies.

Bible historians describe the Hebrew scriptures as evidence of a conception of God that evolves from that of a tribal deity toward that of a universal God. The process of conceiving of God in a way that is universal and that everyone can subscribe to, if possible, hasn't yet been fully realized.


Well put and accurate enough but I do not agree with your conclusion.

I see Gnostic Christianity's ideology as compatible or being able to work with all thinking systems.

It is all a matter of recognizing the archetypal characteristics of the imagined god.

If you do not know of it, it is not surprising. Christian inquisitions were quick to kill off the better ideologies.

Regards
DL


I'm all about it... the esoteric core of all religions and in fact the human psyche religious or not. But not everybody is. In fact most people don't seem to be. So it remains the goal, the dream, the Omega point of evolution.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Hitler was genocidal and evil. Yahweh’s genocides are go

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sun Sep 06, 2020 5:37 am

Greatest I am wrote:
Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:Jews have not corrupted their religion the way Christian have, IMO.

Even today, it is a way more intelligent ideology than Christianity has.

Regards
DL

Yahweh is a Tanakh character and when Christians want to make war or kill they go back to the Jewish Bible, Jesus saying a bunch of inconvenient stuff, so I can't really see how the Jews have no corrupted their religion, given what bothers you. You are referring to Yahweh.

Of course religions are not about peace and love, and they didn't pretend to be, in general, until the monotheisms came in with all their contradictions. Pagans had gods of war and infighting and conflicts even in 'the heavens'. They had human gods.


Human created gods are all we have ever had.

Regards
DL
That's not what I meant. I was talking about the nature of the deities - whether real or imagined - which were much more human than the modern versions of the Abrahamic deities. Emotions, grudges and so on.

Also, I still can't see, as i said above, how the Jews have not corrupted their religion. They created Yahweh, the genocidal character you are complaining about. Unless you mean they never denied his genocidal nature.
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Re: Hitler was genocidal and evil. Yahweh’s genocides are go

Postby Greatest I am » Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:09 pm

felix dakat wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
felix dakat wrote:The God of the Hebrew Bible not only wipes out all but a small remnant of living things by the flood, he commands that the Israelites commit genocide against the people of Canaan. When the chosen King, Saul, fails to comply with God's genocidal commandment, it results in his replacement as king by David.

Christian theologians and Talmudic scholars employed various hermeneutic strategies for rationalizing God's Old Testament behavior. The early Gnostic viewed Yahweh as the evil demiurge who put himself in the place of the real God, who presumably is identified with the Platonic Good and thus would be free of anything like genocidal tendencies.

Bible historians describe the Hebrew scriptures as evidence of a conception of God that evolves from that of a tribal deity toward that of a universal God. The process of conceiving of God in a way that is universal and that everyone can subscribe to, if possible, hasn't yet been fully realized.


Well put and accurate enough but I do not agree with your conclusion.

I see Gnostic Christianity's ideology as compatible or being able to work with all thinking systems.

It is all a matter of recognizing the archetypal characteristics of the imagined god.

If you do not know of it, it is not surprising. Christian inquisitions were quick to kill off the better ideologies.

Regards
DL


I'm all about it... the esoteric core of all religions and in fact the human psyche religious or not. But not everybody is. In fact most people don't seem to be. So it remains the goal, the dream, the Omega point of evolution.


All we can do is put words in front of our interlocutors. The rest is to them not being so mentally lazy.

We call many, in the biblical sense, but most minds are fixed into their patterns by the time they get here.

Aberrant conditioning at it's worse.

Regards
DL
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Re: Hitler was genocidal and evil. Yahweh’s genocides are go

Postby Greatest I am » Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:18 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:[
Yahweh is a Tanakh character and when Christians want to make war or kill they go back to the Jewish Bible, Jesus saying a bunch of inconvenient stuff, so I can't really see how the Jews have no corrupted their religion, given what bothers you. You are referring to Yahweh.

Of course religions are not about peace and love, and they didn't pretend to be, in general, until the monotheisms came in with all their contradictions. Pagans had gods of war and infighting and conflicts even in 'the heavens'. They had human gods.


Human created gods are all we have ever had.

Regards
DL[/quote]That's not what I meant. I was talking about the nature of the deities - whether real or imagined - which were much more human than the modern versions of the Abrahamic deities. Emotions, grudges and so on.

Also, I still can't see, as i said above, how the Jews have not corrupted their religion. They created Yahweh, the genocidal character you are complaining about. Unless you mean they never denied his genocidal nature.[/quote]


K T

Jews know that they are looking at a myth. Too many Christians are not that bright and believe in a literal Jesus.

And yes, I am aware of the loony right wing in Judaism. As in Christianity and Islam, statistically insignificant. The fat right wing is the problem.

God's moral nature is my main focus as all else is speculative nonsense with no end game.

With moral discussions, there is always an end game.

That is why the religious run from such discussions. They are Moral Cowards.

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DL
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