Wholeness

[obsrvr524]

I start from the experience of being in the world. Where do you start from?

Before I asked - why should I trust what you say about this topic.
But then why should you trust what I say about this topic?
And now -

The Self itself is never experienced as a totality. It is known only through the experience of its manifold aspects in perception, memories, dreams, anticipations and reflections.

Why should You trust what You say/think about this topic?

It is easy for a person to mislead even themselves isn't it (just look around on this board)?
So I am still back at my earlier suggestion -

• that in turn requires that it be a moral imperative to learn how to ascertain trustworthiness.

All of those imply to me that becoming self-realized, although a high imperative is considerably below many others.

Which spiritual or religious organization concentrates on how to ascertain trustworthiness?

Infants just make an instinctive guess - "trust mommy" - sometimes wrongly. Adults find it far more complicated so many instinctively default to "just trust Big Mommy (government)". I think just assuming that your instincts are all the guide you need is a bit -- infantile-ish.

[felix dakat]

I start from the experience of being in the world. Where do you start from?

Before I asked - why should I trust what you say about this topic.
But then why should you trust what I say about this topic?
And now -

The Self itself is never experienced as a totality. It is known only through the experience of its manifold aspects in perception, memories, dreams, anticipations and reflections.

Why should You trust what You say/think about this topic?

It is easy for a person to mislead even themselves isn't it (just look around on this board)?
So I am still back at my earlier suggestion -

• that in turn requires that it be a moral imperative to learn how to ascertain trustworthiness.

All of those imply to me that becoming self-realized, although a high imperative is considerably below many others.

Which spiritual or religious organization concentrates on how to ascertain trustworthiness?

Infants just make an instinctive guess - "trust mommy" - sometimes wrongly. Adults find it far more complicated so many instinctively default to "just trust Big Mommy (government)". I think just assuming that your instincts are all the guide you need is a bit -- infantile-ish.

Nowhere on this thread did I ever say let your instincts be your guide.

[obsrvr524]

Nowhere on this thread did I ever say let your instincts be your guide.

What else do you have to determine your true self?

[felix dakat]

Nowhere on this thread did I ever say let your instincts be your guide.

What else do you have to determine your true self?

Pay attention to what you intend.

[obsrvr524]

Pay attention to what you intend.

Personally I think that is great advice -
- but why should we trust what we think about it?

[felix dakat]

Pay attention to what you intend.

Personally I think that is great advice -
- but why should we trust what we think about it?

You shouldn't, at least not absolutely. And that's why you begin to think about thinking which is the beginning of philosophy.

[obsrvr524]

And that's why you begin to think about thinking which is the beginning of philosophy.

Do I really have to keep repeating this?

How do we trust what we are thinking?

[felix dakat]

And that's why you begin to think about thinking which is the beginning of philosophy.

Do I really have to keep repeating this?

How do we trust what we are thinking?

You can't trust it absolutely. If what you're thinking is true enough to accomplish what you intend, so that the outcome is what your hypothesis predicts, that's as trustworthy as it gets.

[obsrvr524]

You can't trust it absolutely. If what you're thinking is true enough to accomplish what you intend, so that the outcome is what your hypothesis predicts, that's as trustworthy as it gets.

When I think about that I wonder about the kinds of choices I have made to see if your theory fits.

It seems to me that every choice I have made falls into one of 3 basic categories -

• The things revealed through direct experience -
  - trying to fix my flat tire
  - trying to fix my computer
  - trying to build a cabinet
  - and so on
  each proved a degree of success and failure
  each based on my instincts
• The things never really determined -
  - trying to be a good person
  - trying to choose the best wife
  - trying to live in the best neighborhood
  - and so on
  each based on my instincts - none proven either way
• The things that cannot be wrong -
  - things that can be strongly (if not absolutely) trusted

That last one is the one I am asking about - the one that forms, requires, and demands "wholeness".

Without that last one - what isn't just instinctive guessing?

[felix dakat]

You can't trust it absolutely. If what you're thinking is true enough to accomplish what you intend, so that the outcome is what your hypothesis predicts, that's as trustworthy as it gets.

When I think about that I wonder about the kinds of choices I have made to see if your theory fits.

It seems to me that every choice I have made falls into one of 3 basic categories -

• The things revealed through direct experience -
  - trying to fix my flat tire
  - trying to fix my computer
  - trying to build a cabinet
  - and so on
  each proved a degree of success and failure
  each based on my instincts
• The things never really determined -
  - trying to be a good person
  - trying to choose the best wife
  - trying to live in the best neighborhood
  - and so on
  each based on my instincts - none proven either way
• The things that cannot be wrong -
  - things that can be strongly (if not absolutely) trusted

That last one is the one I am asking about - the one that forms, requires, and demands "wholeness".

Without that last one - what isn't just instinctive guessing?

I don't know where you come up with instinctive guessing as the best means for making a decision. When the choice really matters, a person should use all their resources to make the best judgment including their knowledge reason and feeling. Wholeness includes the whole person.

[obsrvr524]

I don't know where you come up with instinctive guessing as the best means for making a decision.

And I don't get where you got that I ever said that.

When the choice really matters, a person should use all their resources to make the best judgment including their knowledge reason and feeling. Wholeness includes the whole person.

And what in that list of "all of your resources" isn't chosen by your instincts? To me all you have said so far is to trust your instincts (""trust your true self" - whatever it is that your instincts have led you to accept).

If that really is all there is - isn't everyone already doing that. If my instincts (my true self) haven't led me to being whole - just keep trying?

Isn't there anything else different than what your instincts guide you to accept that might be more trustable?

[felix dakat]

I don't know where you come up with instinctive guessing as the best means for making a decision.

And I don't get where you got that I ever said that.

When the choice really matters, a person should use all their resources to make the best judgment including their knowledge reason and feeling. Wholeness includes the whole person.

And what in that list of "all of your resources" isn't chosen by your instincts? To me all you have said so far is to trust your instincts (""trust your true self" - whatever it is that your instincts have led you to accept).

If that really is all there is - isn't everyone already doing that. If my instincts (my true self) haven't led me to being whole - just keep trying?

Isn't there anything else different than what your instincts guide you to accept that might be more trustable?

The Self is not the instincts I never said it was that's your misinterpretation.

[obsrvr524]

I think that is my correct interpretation - but I don't think we are getting anywhere with this anyway.

I was just playing, mate - giving you someone to talk to.

[polishyouthgotipbanned]

your pretentious clown why did you refer me to this topic???
this TOPIC

[obsrvr524]

your pretentious clown why did you refer me to this topic???
this TOPIC

I was quoting and writing to the other self-righteous bludger.

[polishyouthgotipbanned]

fuck you spook

[promethean75]

^^^ this pleases stirner

[felix dakat]

Without human consciousness the iconic reality that we inhabit would not exist. The icons are low resolution representations of things that are actually there. The thing in itself beyond consciousness is everything and nothing at the same time.

Aiming for heaven is an admirable goal. After all we are a social hierarchical species. The Kingdom of Heaven is in us in the sense that we should be aiming to improve ourselves. Heaven is not a place to go but a way to be.

[obsrvr524]

Heaven is not a place to go but a way to be.

I certainly agree with that one.

[felix dakat]

The principal of wholeness as it pertains to psychic integrity is a safeguard against fanaticism and extremism of the moral and or religious varieties which are based on objectivism and do violence to the soul. This kind of morality is theonomous rather than heteronymous. That is, it comes from within rather than from without.

On the other hand, the self's calling or drawing to wholeness answered and obeyed by the ego results in integrity which delivers it from psychic idolatry and splitting. Thus unified, the ego is strengthened. This is a vision of psychic monotheism as opposed to polytheism.

[felix dakat]

They were the meaning and they were born into meaning.
Their world taught them that they and it were meaningless.
Religion taught them to have faith that there is a meaning.
Some believed it and some didn't.
But how many saw that they were the meaning and that they were living in it?

[felix dakat]

When we treat persons as mere objects we diminish ourselves.

[felix dakat]

Our ability to see things as pictures is achieved by the intellect not just by sensibility. To be able to identify something as an image of something else is to see the image as conveying not just a reminder of that depicted object but presenting it under a certain angle and with a certain slant and to see it with a certain meaning. All this is the work of intellect and not just sensibility.

[felix dakat]

Wholes can be analyzed into pieces and moments. Pieces can be detached from their wholes. Moments can't. A branch is a piece of a tree. It can exist independently of it, at which point it itself becomes a whole. A musical pitch is a moment. It can't exist independently from a sound.