Wholeness

For intuitive and critical discussions, from spirituality to theological doctrines. Fair warning: because the subject matter is personal, moderation is strict.

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Re: Wholeness

Postby Ierrellus » Mon Nov 16, 2020 2:08 pm

The psychological trinity, or trinity of the psyche, is our image of god. These are ideas from body, from mind, and from spirit. Double-mindedness as mentioned in the first chapter of James ( NT) amounts to warring factions among the psyche's trinity. For a trinity to be effective all parts must be in harmony as a Whole.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:37 pm

Ierrellus wrote:The psychological trinity, or trinity of the psyche, is our image of god. These are ideas from body, from mind, and from spirit. Double-mindedness as mentioned in the first chapter of James ( NT) amounts to warring factions among the psyche's trinity. For a trinity to be effective all parts must be in harmony as a Whole.


Here is a historical fact related to your post in terms of perennial wisdom, the psyche, and as a matter of faith, to the ultimate whole:
Christian Kabbalah "reinterpreted Kabbalistic doctrine to a distinctly Christian perspective, linking Jesus Christ, His atonement, and His resurrection to the Ten Sefirot", linking the upper three Sephirot to the hypostases of the Trinity and the last seven "to the lower or earthly world",[2] or "would make Kether the Creator (or the Spirit), Hokhmah the Father, and Binah—the supernal mother—Mary", which "places Mary on a divine level with God, something the orthodox churches have always refused to do". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Kabbalah
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:19 pm

All the personality tests are in a sense wrong. They are products of the more and the less of Left Brain reductive dualistic thinking. The Myers-Briggs test notwithstanding, Jung's theory of personality comes closest to capturing the dynamic polarity of the personality dimensions. The introvert is also an extrovert. The feeling person is also thinking person. The sensing person is also an intuitive person. And so forth. The whole is more than a sum of its parts. We are more than we know.
Last edited by felix dakat on Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Dan~ » Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:56 pm

felix dakat wrote:By data I take you to mean characteristics or information that are collected through observation.

I mean Data as in computer files, memories of the human brain/mind, DNA, etc. All of that is linguistic.

By energy, do you mean something externally or internally perceived or both?

Both. Energy to me means essence.

And what's the polarity? Negative vs. positive?

I mean the polarity as some thoughtforms are mostly information.
Some thoughtforms are mostly energy.
And many are a bit of both.

How is the mind effective and thought forms less effective?

A whole mind is different than an individual, isolated thoughtform.
That is all i meant.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:26 pm

Dan~ wrote:
felix dakat wrote:By data I take you to mean characteristics or information that are collected through observation.

I mean Data as in computer files, memories of the human brain/mind, DNA, etc. All of that is linguistic.

By energy, do you mean something externally or internally perceived or both?

Both. Energy to me means essence.

And what's the polarity? Negative vs. positive?

I mean the polarity as some thoughtforms are mostly information.
Some thoughtforms are mostly energy.
And many are a bit of both.

How is the mind effective and thought forms less effective?

A whole mind is different than an individual, isolated thoughtform.
That is all i meant.


Per A.N. Whitehead, energy experienced within is feeling and thus even atoms feel.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Bob » Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:39 pm

felix dakat wrote:All the personality tests are in a sense wrong. They are products of the more and the less of Left Brain reductive dualistic thinking. The Myers-Briggs test notwithstanding, Jung's theory of personality comes closest to capturing the dynamic polarity of the personality dimensions. The introvert is also an extrovert. The feeling person is also thinking person. The sensing person is also an intuitive person. And so forth. The whole is more than a sum of its parts. We are more than we know.

I think the attempt to stick with one definition in MBT is difficult, the MBT only tells you where your comfort zone is. I prefer the enneagram which offers a more differentiated description of personality.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:11 pm

Bob wrote:
felix dakat wrote:All the personality tests are in a sense wrong. They are products of the more and the less of Left Brain reductive dualistic thinking. The Myers-Briggs test notwithstanding, Jung's theory of personality comes closest to capturing the dynamic polarity of the personality dimensions. The introvert is also an extrovert. The feeling person is also thinking person. The sensing person is also an intuitive person. And so forth. The whole is more than a sum of its parts. We are more than we know.

I think the attempt to stick with one definition in MBT is difficult, the MBT only tells you where your comfort zone is. I prefer the enneagram which offers a more differentiated description of personality.


the online versions of the Myers-Briggs and the big five factor personality tests are subjective. They tell you what you think of yourself. One can access that through introspection. Perhaps at best they clarify what one thinks of oneself if one doesn't know. If you have a link to an online enneagram test that you think is helpful please share.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Bob » Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:18 am

felix dakat wrote:the online versions of the Myers-Briggs and the big five factor personality tests are subjective. They tell you what you think of yourself. One can access that through introspection. Perhaps at best they clarify what one thinks of oneself if one doesn't know. If you have a link to an online enneagram test that you think is helpful please share.

I have realised that I took a German test, which was available online. The only English-speaking test that I found is here:
https://www.testgorilla.com/test-library/personality-culture-fit-tests/enneagram-personality-test-test/?utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Campaign_Personality_Values_Bing_World&utm_term=enneagram&msclkid=877a993abb9714f62314c68e6387f5e8

A chart is found here:
https://www.cocreativejourneys.com/enneagram/chart
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:35 pm

Bob wrote:
felix dakat wrote:the online versions of the Myers-Briggs and the big five factor personality tests are subjective. They tell you what you think of yourself. One can access that through introspection. Perhaps at best they clarify what one thinks of oneself if one doesn't know. If you have a link to an online enneagram test that you think is helpful please share.

I have realised that I took a German test, which was available online. The only English-speaking test that I found is here:
https://www.testgorilla.com/test-library/personality-culture-fit-tests/enneagram-personality-test-test/?utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Campaign_Personality_Values_Bing_World&utm_term=enneagram&msclkid=877a993abb9714f62314c68e6387f5e8

A chart is found here:
https://www.cocreativejourneys.com/enneagram/chart


Some interesting facts about enneagrams here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enneagram_of_Personality. "...contemporary Enneagram theories are principally derived from the teachings of the Bolivian psycho-spiritual teacher Oscar Ichazo from the 1950s and the Chilean psychiatrist Claudio Naranjo from the 1970s. Naranjo's theories were also influenced by some earlier teachings about personality by George Gurdjieff and the Fourth Way tradition." So far I'm having trouble accessing test on that site without paying $$.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Bob » Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:08 pm

felix dakat wrote:Some interesting facts about enneagrams here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enneagram_of_Personality. "...contemporary Enneagram theories are principally derived from the teachings of the Bolivian psycho-spiritual teacher Oscar Ichazo from the 1950s and the Chilean psychiatrist Claudio Naranjo from the 1970s. Naranjo's theories were also influenced by some earlier teachings about personality by George Gurdjieff and the Fourth Way tradition." So far I'm having trouble accessing test on that site without paying $$.

Here is a free test:
https://lonerwolf.com/enneagram-test/
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:54 pm

Bob wrote:
felix dakat wrote:Some interesting facts about enneagrams here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enneagram_of_Personality. "...contemporary Enneagram theories are principally derived from the teachings of the Bolivian psycho-spiritual teacher Oscar Ichazo from the 1950s and the Chilean psychiatrist Claudio Naranjo from the 1970s. Naranjo's theories were also influenced by some earlier teachings about personality by George Gurdjieff and the Fourth Way tradition." So far I'm having trouble accessing test on that site without paying $$.

Here is a free test:
https://lonerwolf.com/enneagram-test/


Thank you! I took the test. It labeled me the Challenger or the Boss. I don't recognize myself in the description of that profile. Maybe the test is inaccurate. Or perhaps it's so deeply diagnostic that it detected my unconscious or barely conscious shadow self. Shrug! I'll send the test to friends and see what they think. Thanks again. Fun stuff!
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:58 pm

To experience the riches of the soul one must be open to her polytheism. Psychological monotheism has tended to denude and disenchant the imagination of its Pantheon of Divine images. We must leave the safe shore of the normative ideals of health as balanced wholeness and launch into a sea foreign and unnatural to the ego. I showed above how the Gnostic vision of the Cosmic Christ integrated the gods in the form of planetary spheres into Christ. As the Logos, Christ became the reality of every positive thing.

Indeed I ask myself again and again what the idea of wholeness represents in the context of the evidence of human imperfectability. No doubt it's the ideal. But, what kind of attraction does an unattainable ideal have?

As archetypal psychologist James Hillman points out the psyche has the ability to create "illness, morbidity, disorder, abnormality and suffering," and to experience and imagine life through this deformed afflicted lens. By pathologizing our spiritual and natural selves are transformed into a fragmented fractured and deformed psychological ego. Ironically this too can lead to individuation as the soul is freed from its identification with ego and it's life and the upper world of heroes and high gods who provide the ego with its models and bring us into a one sided suppressive narrow way of life and living. Wholeness requires balancing the properties of chaos and order.

I opened the Red Book and found Jung struggling with similar issues. He says
"I held to the sanctified form, and didn’t want to allow the chaos to break through its dams. I believed in the order of the world and hated everything disorganized and unformed. Therefore above all I had to realize that my own law had brought me to this place. As the God developed in me, I thought he was a part of my self. I thought that my “I” included him and therefore I took him for my thought. But I also considered that my thoughts were parts of my “I.” Thus I entered into my thoughts, and into the thinking about the God, in that I took him for a part of my self. [page 191]

He starts out tightly to pre-conceived order and thinking he is greater than God who is only part of himself. Thus, he tried to keep his God in a box.


On account of my thoughts, I had left myself; therefore my self became hungry and made God into a selfish thought. If I leave myself, my hunger will drive me to find my self in my object, that is, in my thought. Therefore you love reasonable and orderly thoughts, since you could not endure it if your self was in disordered, that is, unsuitable thoughts. Through your selfish wish, you pushed out of your thoughts everything that you do not consider ordered, that is, unfitting. You create order according to what you know, you do not know the thoughts of chaos, and yet they exist. My thoughts are not my self, and my I does not embrace the thought. Your thought has this meaning and that, not just one, but many meanings. No one knows how many.[page 191]


Than he realizes that his conscious thoughts are greater than he knew, less orderly and controllable and less fathomable.

My thoughts are not my self, but exactly like the things of the world, alive and dead. Just as I am not damaged through living in a partly chaotic world, so too I am not damaged if I live in my partly chaotic thought world. Thoughts are natural events that you do not possess, and whose meaning you only imperfectly recognize. Thoughts grow in me like a forest, populated by many different animals. But man is domineering in his thinking, and therefore he kills the pleasure of the forest and that of the wild animals. Man is violent in his desire, and he himself becomes a forest and a forest animal. Just as I have freedom in the world, I also have freedom in my thoughts. Freedom is conditional. [page 192]


Eventually he realized that his conscious ego stands like a donut between the chaoses of inner and outer worlds. Thoughts have an autonomy of their own. We don't have them. They have us. We must contemplate them from every angle. Understand them. Overstand them. Stand beside them this way and that. Still we do not exhaust their meaning.

So my question about thoughts is what effect do they have? Do they strengthen you or weaken you?

I approach the mandala of wholeness through struggle. It is dynamic and profusely populated with images including my thoughts. I can view them as divine gifts to my consciousness. I don't despise whatever their origin even if they come from popular media insofar as they give me strength. Whatever gives you strength is good insofar as it does that. If they don't, I just let them go.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:09 pm

Next Jung deals with symbols of transformation. Rationality and absurdity are interdependent. The white serpent and the black serpent don't destroy each other. They transform each other. Elijah above becomes Mime below. Enantidromia is at work.

ONE MORNING, WHEN GREGOR SAMSA WOKE FROM TROUBLED DREAMS, he found himself transformed in his bed into a horrible vermin. He lay on his armour-like back, and if he lifted his head a little he could see his brown belly, slightly domed and divided by arches into stiff sections. The bedding was hardly able to cover it and seemed ready to slide off any moment. His many legs, pitifully thin compared with the size of the rest of him, waved about helplessly as he looked. “What’s happened to me?” he thought. It wasn’t a dream.

Franz Kafka. METAMORPHOSIS


"...you should know that Ein Sof emanated its sefirot, through which its its actions are performed. They serve as vessels for the actions deriving from Ein Sof in the world of separation and below." [Moses Cordevero]

The world of hypnagogia is a one of consciousness between wakefulness and sleep. It is the one that Jung entered through active imagination. Notice that Kafka's protagonist becomes insect-like upon awakening before rising from bed. There is evidence that his story emerged from a hypnagogic state in that detail.
Hypnagogia is separate in the sense that it is an awareness that is separate from the sensory world and below in the sense that its content is the images of psychic depth.

The pattern of patterns is a fractal in which symbols are reiterated infinitely all the way up and all the way down. The outward reiterates the inward. The inward reiterates the outward. There's no way to appreciate what this means that isn't conscious. We are embedded in existence-- a world of separation above and below.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby MagsJ » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:28 am

Bob wrote:
felix dakat wrote:Some interesting facts about enneagrams here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enneagram_of_Personality. "...contemporary Enneagram theories are principally derived from the teachings of the Bolivian psycho-spiritual teacher Oscar Ichazo from the 1950s and the Chilean psychiatrist Claudio Naranjo from the 1970s. Naranjo's theories were also influenced by some earlier teachings about personality by George Gurdjieff and the Fourth Way tradition." So far I'm having trouble accessing test on that site without paying $$.

Here is a free test:
https://lonerwolf.com/enneagram-test/

I scored as Individualist, but I had already garnered that via my life’s experiences. But not quite spot on..

While I was at it I also read up on Jung’s shadow personality traits, which affirmed to me that I had never gone below the surface of the self.. though I may have skimmed the surface of the fine line that divides them.
_
Ier's trinity of the psyche template.. of the ideas from body, from mind, and from spirit, where my recent bout of low spirit/energy proved to me that all three are indeed required, to be and feel whole.

When one arrives at that place, where constant improving finally pays off, and that place of infinite maintenance is reached, is good.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:38 pm

MagsJ wrote:
Bob wrote:
felix dakat wrote:Some interesting facts about enneagrams here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enneagram_of_Personality. "...contemporary Enneagram theories are principally derived from the teachings of the Bolivian psycho-spiritual teacher Oscar Ichazo from the 1950s and the Chilean psychiatrist Claudio Naranjo from the 1970s. Naranjo's theories were also influenced by some earlier teachings about personality by George Gurdjieff and the Fourth Way tradition." So far I'm having trouble accessing test on that site without paying $$.

Here is a free test:
https://lonerwolf.com/enneagram-test/

I scored as Individualist, but I had already garnered that via my life’s experiences. But not quite spot on..

While I was at it I also read up on Jung’s shadow personality traits, which affirmed to me that I had never gone below the surface of the self.. though I may have skimmed the surface of the fine line that divides them.
_
Ier's trinity of the psyche template.. of the ideas from body, from mind, and from spirit, where my recent bout of low spirit/energy proved to me that all three are indeed required, to be and feel whole.

When one arrives at that place, where constant improving finally pays off, and that place of infinite maintenance is reached, is good.


I plan to look further into the enneagram test. My girlfriend took the test and scored as an Observer. I can see that to an extent, but it hardly summarizes her personality for me. nor can I relate directly to the test result that I got. Do you think the category individualist reflects well who you are?

I can definitely relate to what I think you are saying about constantly improving or at least improving our situation. Would we do anything if we didn't think it would make the next moment better than the present one in some way? And now my phone is about to die so I'll improve the situation by putting it on its charger.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:35 am

As a man you are part of mankind, and therefore you have a share in the whole of mankind, as if you were the whole of mankind. If you overpower and kill your fellow man who is contrary to you, then you also kill that person in yourself and have murdered a part of your life. The spirit of this dead man follows you and does not let your life become joyful. You need your wholeness to live onward.

C. G. Jung. The Red Book: A Reader's Edition (Philemon) (Kindle Locations 3573-3576). W. W. Norton & Company. Kindle Edition.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Bob » Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:43 am

felix dakat wrote:I plan to look further into the enneagram test. My girlfriend took the test and scored as an Observer. I can see that to an extent, but it hardly summarizes her personality for me. nor can I relate directly to the test result that I got. Do you think the category individualist reflects well who you are?

I can definitely relate to what I think you are saying about constantly improving or at least improving our situation. Would we do anything if we didn't think it would make the next moment better than the present one in some way? And now my phone is about to die so I'll improve the situation by putting it on its charger.

What you really have to look into is how strong your "wings" are (7+9), because they influence you in varying degrees too. I am a five but spent periods in my life as a four or a six which are very strong with me. You may also have a high score elsewhere too, which means that it can influence your behaviour as well. As an eight, you may be helped by becoming a bit more like fives now and again and you may tend to be stressed by twos. That is taken from the book by Richard Rohr.
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Bob » Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:23 am

felix dakat wrote:
As a man you are part of mankind, and therefore you have a share in the whole of mankind, as if you were the whole of mankind. If you overpower and kill your fellow man who is contrary to you, then you also kill that person in yourself and have murdered a part of your life. The spirit of this dead man follows you and does not let your life become joyful. You need your wholeness to live onward.

C. G. Jung. The Red Book: A Reader's Edition (Philemon) (Kindle Locations 3573-3576). W. W. Norton & Company. Kindle Edition.

When I read Jung, I get drawn in and often lose track of time. My mind goes off and opens up doors and windows in my mind that were closed. This idea of wholeness was with me even when I was with the Evangelicals, which wasn’t appreciated. It has consequences that impede our acceptance of some of the tasks that society may ask of us. It also explains the physical and mental wrecks that come back from active duty. Our society hasn’t yet grasped the reality of being a human being, but is instead caught up in the material world.
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:48 pm

Bob wrote:
When I read Jung, I get drawn in and often lose track of time. My mind goes off and opens up doors and windows in my mind that were closed. This idea of wholeness was with me even when I was with the Evangelicals, which wasn’t appreciated. It has consequences that impede our acceptance of some of the tasks that society may ask of us. It also explains the physical and mental wrecks that come back from active duty. Our society hasn’t yet grasped the reality of being a human being, but is instead caught up in the material world.


From what you say there, reading Jung may be putting you in touch with hypnagogic consciousness. That's the consciousness that Jung himself sought through the technique he called active imagination which is primarily one of working with dream images, dialoguing with them. I think that's how he produced the Red Book.After his split from Freud before the beginning of World War I, he was overtaken by psychic imagery. He feared he was losing his mind. But instead of running from it, he worked on understanding and processing the imagery and it inspired his research for the rest of his long psychological career.

Archetypal psychology as I understand it, seeks to follow the same path. The way I'm seeking is the way of my own soul. That is, getting in touch with my own internal imagery. Our soul is primarily unconscious, it speaks to us in the imagery of our own mind. It's about paying attention to that imagery, working with it, dialoguing with it, letting your own soul become your teacher.

I agree with what you say. Our knowledge doesn't encompass who we are. To see that is to pierce the first level of illusion. What we have are images and resting on those--words. The words are given to us by our culture. They only roughly approximate the images which we can only express through the arts to the limits of our skills in those areas. The images are both visual and auditory. They are what Jung refers to in the Red Book as the "spirit of the depth." On the other hand we have "the spirit of the age. That spirit can totally overwhelm us and take us away from our own depth are own soul. That why we need our spiritual practices to get in touch with and live in our own depth.

In spite of my advanced age, I feel like I am a total beginner at this. "Beginners mind" is in itself a humbling experience. Jesus said we have to become like a child. I have no laurels to rest on. Past spiritual experiences are useless except insofar as they are images upon which we can work in the present.

Wholeness I see on two levels: psychological and ultimate. The mystical apriori is this "Atman is Brahman". The ground of my being is one with the ground of Being Itself.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Bob » Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:14 pm

felix dakat wrote: From what you say there, reading Jung may be putting you in touch with hypnagogic consciousness. That's the consciousness that Jung himself sought through the technique he called active imagination which is primarily one of working with dream images, dialoguing with them. I think that's how he produced the Red Book. After his split from Freud before the beginning of World War I, he was overtaking by psychic imagery. He feared he was losing his mind. But instead of running from it, he worked on understanding and processing the imagery and it inspired his research for the rest of his long psychological career.

“Memories, Reflections and Dreams” was an eye-opener (or a mind opener). I have had times when I thought that I’d lose control, struggling with an assuredness that shocked me. It resonated with Jung saying he didn’t believe, he knew. Today, I notice that the volume of knowledge that has amounted within me (Ennegram 5) has to be put aside. I use meditation for that. Just being in the presence helps me regain that assuredness and calms my spirit. It does put me at odds with the world occasionally, but I’ve come to accept that.

Archetypal psychology as I understand it, seeks to follow the same path. The way I'm seeking is the way of my own soul. That is, getting in touch with my own internal imagery. Our soul is primarily unconscious, it speaks to us in the imagery of our own mind. It's about paying attention to that imagery, working with it, dialoguing with it, letting your own soul become your teacher.

Our soul also reacts within our body. I’m sure that the burnout I had a while ago was may soul telling my head to slow down. The psychiatrist said I was drained of serotonin, and needed a break, but the physical symptoms brought my attention to that. After I stopped working and started meditating more, it went away.

I agree with what you say. Our knowledge doesn't encompass who we are. To see that is to pierce the first level of illusion. What we have are images and resting on those--words. The words are given to us by our culture. They only roughly approximate the images which we can only express through the arts to the limits of our skills in those areas. The images are both visual and auditory. They are what Jung refers to in the Red Book as the "spirit of the depth." On the other hand we have "the spirit of the age. That spirit can totally overwhelm us and take us away from our own depth are own soul. That why we need our spiritual practices to get in touch with and live in our own depth.

In spite of my advanced age, I feel like I am a total beginner at this. "Beginners mind" is in itself a humbling experience. Jesus said we have to become like a child. I have no laurels to rest on. Past spiritual experiences are useless except insofar as they are images upon which we can work in the present.

Wholeness I see on two levels: psychological and ultimate. The mystical apriori is this "Atman is Brahman". The ground of my being is one with the ground of Being Itself.

Beginners mind was also a big discovery for me and helped me in my interactions with people. I used it especially in my advisory capacity and people noticed and spoke to me about it. They hadn’t had a boss who approached things that way. I see us deeply interconnected, including our environment. I believe that we need to have nature wherever we are and people around us. We need to see that the wholeness we feel is when we are part of the whole. Conflict is just a different perspective that needs to be cleared up.
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
TS Eliot
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:25 pm

O to be a beginner in everything!
Seeing and hearing and touching the world through fresh eyes and ears and flesh.
The questions of knowledge and truth, the nature of humanity nature and God, questions about moral values questions, about aesthetic values questions, about the bases and purposes of organized society all appear fresh to me.
The meaning of the images that flash before my mind, the meaning of my dreams, the experience of being embodied, the routines and the skills enacted by my hands and feet are like new to me.
Like a baby discovering herself for the first time.
Beginning again renewed every morning, every hour, every minute, every moment.
Present moment--wonderful moment!
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Bob » Fri Nov 27, 2020 3:30 pm

felix dakat wrote:O to be a beginner in everything!
Seeing and hearing and touching the world through fresh eyes and ears and flesh.
The questions of knowledge and truth, the nature of humanity nature and God, questions about moral values questions, about aesthetic values questions, about the bases and purposes of organized society all appear fresh to me.
The meaning of the images that flash before my mind, the meaning of my dreams, the experience of being embodied, the routines and the skills enacted by my hands and feet are like new to me.
Like a baby discovering herself for the first time.
Beginning again renewed every morning, every hour, every minute, every moment.
Present moment--wonderful moment!

Very thoughtful and thought provoking!

I have had a look at what you mentioned about Pageau and his take on A. Jones.

I think his intention wasn’t to declare Jones as acceptable, his side remarks show that Jones’ ranting is all over the place and he mixes one kind of Symbolism with another, but he does show that society is going down a certain road with the depletion of trust in institutions. Jones is a typical voice in such times.

His mistake, as far as I’m concerned, is to underrate the influence Jones has on people and the danger he poses. Having said that, he is a symptom, not the illness. The postmodern tendency to pull down institutions and sow doubt causes this kind of reaction. Anyone on the conservative side of the spectrum would see their trusted institutions in danger, with nothing trustworthy to take its place. Remember, the way that Peterson points at, is the middle way, between order and chaos. Both, on their own, can cause upheaval and all the worst things that civilisations have gone through. The danger is from right and left, the right demanding a strict order and the left raising doubts about everything.

People are not talking to each other, they are not making sense of what they are experiencing and their visions of the way ahead are short-sighted. Pageau has given himself the task of translating what is going on, which I think he does well. He does make mistakes, but I think he does make valid points. Beginners mind is important, but we must be careful not to ignore the ground sliding away under us. That is what I think is happening at present.
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
TS Eliot
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Dan~ » Fri Nov 27, 2020 3:54 pm

I've developed a new bible launching device called the bible basher.
It is modeled after a scorpion cross bow.
The shaft fits the width of the bible perfectly.
:-k

Bob, how far have you gone with meditation?
I like http://www.accuradio.com , internet radio.
https://dannerz.itch.io/ -- a new and minimal webside now hosting two of my free game projects.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Bob » Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:34 pm

Dan~ wrote:I've developed a new bible launching device called the bible basher.
It is modeled after a scorpion cross bow.
The shaft fits the width of the bible perfectly.
:-k

Bob, how far have you gone with meditation?

I’m not one who understands meditation as a way, down which one goes. I understand meditation as an oasis in which we gain refreshment, where we find peace and, very lacking in todays world, silence and solitude. It is where I open myself to spiritual confrontation, it is a “parlour” into which Jesus sends us to be confronted by what we call God.
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
TS Eliot
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Dan~ » Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:39 pm

I recently did a test with a guy i know.
I felt that his aura was indestructible, to my great surprise.
Then we talked about it, and he considers himself an extention of the divine.

So I decided 2 things.
He has a superpositioning soul, which is in God and in his earth body all at the same time,
and that technological magic is inferior to divine magic.

God may be trying to tell you something.
I think it is often an added detail to an already held belief.

Being able to talk with God is an attempt that the praying folk made.
But how about hearing God, instead of just praying one way.

Prophets were exceptional, maybe something genetic,
to where they could hear God's words.

I find it incredibly difficult.
But maybe someday I'll get it.
I like http://www.accuradio.com , internet radio.
https://dannerz.itch.io/ -- a new and minimal webside now hosting two of my free game projects.
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