Wholeness

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Re: Wholeness

Postby Dan~ » Tue Oct 06, 2020 7:45 pm

felix dakat wrote:
Dan~ wrote:
I entertain the proposition that the major religions have a common esoteric core.

What if their common esoteric core has to do with them being humanized?

Hi Dan. That seems to imply that they were inhuman to begin with. How so? And if so, then how could humanizing them be at their core?


We don't have truth, we have a Human-Truth.
Truth is humanized.

Thus, religions are human religions.
This causes similarities between all world religions.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Ierrellus » Wed Oct 07, 2020 12:52 pm

Dan,
Are you simply saying that there is no supernatural reason for the major religions to coincide at the core?
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Wed Oct 07, 2020 3:29 pm

Dan~ wrote:
We don't have truth, we have a Human-Truth.
Truth is humanized.

Thus, religions are human religions.
This causes similarities between all world religions.


Every thought strives for truth. Naturalists and positivists limit truth to empirically verifiable statements. According to them truth should be limited to experimentally confirmed propositions and analytic sentences.

Now perennial wisdom talks about truth in terms of divine revelation, uncovering or unveiling. Things hide their true being and must be discovered under the surface of sense impressions, changing appearances and unfounded opinions.

Insight is an inner experience not a mere seeing with the eyes. The dialectic itself is a kind of uncovering.

Of course it's all human, i.e. all we know of this is from a human point of view. But what does that mean? I'm 70 years old and I'm still finding out.

Being human is paradoxical. Perhaps reality itself is a paradox. We are primates with an infinite universe around us and inside us. I suppose we could call that "humanized truth" as you say.

In so far as each of us are unique beings with unique points of view, your "truth" will not be identical to mine.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Dan~ » Wed Oct 07, 2020 11:29 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Dan,
Are you simply saying that there is no supernatural reason for the major religions to coincide at the core?

In a way, i am saying that, yes.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Dan~ » Wed Oct 07, 2020 11:34 pm

felix dakat wrote:I'm 70 years old and I'm still finding out

I'm 36y old.
Sorry that you are 70.
But you may have more free quality time.
Senior unemployment money,
and then a life time of experience to draw from.

And yes, i think reality is super paradoxical.
There is little proof that the universe is finite.

Every thought strives for truth.

I see every thought as striving for self.
Reactions to self, and self's reaction to the world.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Ierrellus » Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:42 pm

'Purity of heart is to will one thing."--Kierkegaard.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Thu Oct 08, 2020 6:59 pm

Dan~ wrote:
felix dakat wrote:I'm 70 years old and I'm still finding out

I'm 36y old.
Sorry that you are 70.
But you may have more free quality time.
Senior unemployment money,
and then a life time of experience to draw from.

And yes, i think reality is super paradoxical.
There is little proof that the universe is finite.

Every thought strives for truth.

I see every thought as striving for self.
Reactions to self, and self's reaction to the world.


Don't feel sorry for me. I'm living my best life as they say.

When I said every thought strives for the truth, I was referring to what phenomenologists call intentionality.

Every mental phenomenon is characterized by what the Scholastics of the Middle Ages called the intentional (or mental) inexistence of an object, and what we might call, though not wholly unambiguously, reference to a content, direction towards an object (which is not to be understood here as meaning a thing), or immanent objectivity. Every mental phenomenon includes something as object within itself, although they do not all do so in the same way. In presentation something is presented, in judgement something is affirmed or denied, in love loved, in hate hated, in desire desired and so on. This intentional in-existence is characteristic exclusively of mental phenomena. No physical phenomenon exhibits anything like it. We could, therefore, define mental phenomena by saying that they are those phenomena which contain an object intentionally within themselves.

— Franz Brentano, Psychology from an Empirical Standpoint, edited by Linda L. McAlister (London: Routledge, 1995), pp. 88–89.


There is intentionality in all our propositions and perceptions including yours. We suppose they all refer to something "out there" whether they do or not. Now I'm asking myself what this has to do with "wholeness"? If the big "S" Self is behind all we think and do and say unconsciously, then it's all pointing toward Wholeness. That's starting to sound like faith. Wholeness would be the ultimate intention behind all our intentions.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:01 pm

Heraclitus and Parmenides, Becoming and Being, are the Yin and Yang at the threshold of philosophy and my consciousness.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Fri Oct 09, 2020 5:14 pm

The object of faith is really no object at all. Every concept of God is inadequate in the final analysis. The images of religions are fingers pointing at the Moon.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Dan~ » Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:11 am

felix dakat wrote:The object of faith is really no object at all. Every concept of God is inadequate in the final analysis. The images of religions are fingers pointing at the Moon.

I think most religions claim to be about the truth.
A specific truth that is said to save one's soul.
Do we need more truthiness? Or can we live without it?
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:04 pm

Dan~ wrote:
felix dakat wrote:The object of faith is really no object at all. Every concept of God is inadequate in the final analysis. The images of religions are fingers pointing at the Moon.

I think most religions claim to be about the truth.
A specific truth that is said to save one's soul.
Do we need more truthiness? Or can we live without it?


Nietzsche famously said that the god of Western culture was dead that we had killed him. In 1918 the philosopher of history, Oswald Spengler observed that every major culture is born out of a new religion and that Western Faustian culture was in a state of decline. It seems to me that they were right and that the decline continues. Religions aren't invented. They are a product of the soul, the collective unconscious. I think the world is in a painful stage of transition, an initiation, a death and a rebirth.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Dan~ » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:14 pm

Jesus was supposed to be anti decadent.
It's ironic that some of the worst things to be done in history were for the sake of the gods.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:51 pm

Dan~ wrote:Jesus was supposed to be anti decadent.
It's ironic that some of the worst things to be done in history were for the sake of the gods.


Jesus represented the incarnation of the divine Logos, the Tao. The Logos unites opposites. The gods have always represented creative and destructive potentials. In the New Testament Paul calls them the archon. The new world culture already has a medium --the internet. Here we witness the passing away of the old and the birth of the new culture which is a living being.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Dan~ » Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:45 pm

Jesus represented the incarnation of the divine Logos, the Tao.

I consider him to be a possibly augmented human radicalist which was destroyed by his own species and race.
The tao is eternal and always changing. It is already here, and doesn't get born into a single individual alone.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:23 pm

Dan~ wrote:
Jesus represented the incarnation of the divine Logos, the Tao.

I consider him to be a possibly augmented human radicalist which was destroyed by his own species and race.
The tao is eternal and always changing. It is already here, and doesn't get born into a single individual alone.


The Logos or the Tao is the structural principle incarnate in creation. It's what brings order to chaos.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Dan~ » Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:34 pm

if total balance and harmony is inherited,
why so much suffering?
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Sat Oct 10, 2020 7:57 pm

Dan~ wrote:if total balance and harmony is inherited,
why so much suffering?


Pleasure and pain are two poles in the balance.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:46 pm

"...a pure existentialism is impossible because to describe existence one must use language. Now language deals with universals. In using universals, language is by its very nature essentialist, and cannot escape it.
All attempts to reduce language to mere noises or utterances would bring man back to the animal level on which universals do not exist. Animals cannot express universals.
But man can and must express his encounter with the world in terms of universals. Therefore, there is an essentialist framework in his mind.
Existentialism is possible only as an element in a larger whole, as an element in a vision of the structure of being in its created goodness, and then as a description of man's existence within that framework. The conflicts between his essential goodness and his existential estrangement cannot be seen at all without keeping essentialism and existentialism together.
Theology must see both sides, man's essential nature, wonderfully and symbolically expressed in the paradise story, and man's existential condition, under sin, guilt, and death."
Tillich, Paul. A History of Christian Thought (Touchstone Books) (p. 541). Kindle Edition.


Here we see the Yin and Yang of Existentialism and Essentialism, Becoming and Being, within the Gestalt of the "Larger Whole".
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:39 pm

Primate ethology connects us with our evolutionary past. Chimpanzees are our closest living relatives. Their genetic material is between 98 and 99% identical to ours. Chimpanzees and humans have a close relative now in extinct in common with each other. We can see evidence of the archetypal structures in chimp behavior. there is evidence of the archetypal King in the chimpanzee alpha male. The alpha has is retinue of warriors. Battling chimpanzees seem absolutely possessed by a kind of war frenzy. Some researchers like Goodall and DeWaal hypothesize that the origin of religion may be found in an altered state of warrior possession. "For example during a storm male chimpanzees will sometimes snatch up large branches and charge out into the wind and rain and challenge the lightning bolts with weapons of their own." (The warrior within assessing the knight in the male psyche by Robert Moore and Douglas Gillette.)
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:37 pm

felix dakat wrote:Heraclitus and Parmenides, Becoming and Being, are the Yin and Yang at the threshold of philosophy and my consciousness.

Raymond Tallis on Parmenides:
http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/7/0/4/7046b11 ... 828086f8d1
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Dan~ » Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:35 am

felix dakat wrote:Chimpanzees are our closest living relatives. Their genetic material is between 98 and 99% identical to ours.

"people and tomatoes share as much as 60 percent of the same genes."

This doesn't mean tomatoes are half human.

Also i suspect that there is more than DNA which makes life as it is.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:42 pm

Dan~ wrote:
felix dakat wrote:Chimpanzees are our closest living relatives. Their genetic material is between 98 and 99% identical to ours.

"people and tomatoes share as much as 60 percent of the same genes."

This doesn't mean tomatoes are half human.

Also i suspect that there is more than DNA which makes life as it is.


I didn't claim that chimpanzees are 98% human. So I said nothing would imply the tomatoes are half human.

You're right that there are other significant determinants to the character of human life than DNA. There are obviously significant differences between humans and chimps. And whether there is a connection is between human religion and chimp behavior during storms is questionable. Yet our evolutionary connection to other living organisms is well established.

My post reflected my interest in exploring how archetypes are connected to instincts, the possibility of archetypal imagery in the consciousness of non-human animals, and the evolution of religion.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:27 pm

I am a novice in the mode of life I am now living and trying to express on this thread. In the early 90s on reading the existential philosophers Tillich and Heidegger and Jaspers I embarked on a path of living according to being instead of instrumental knowledge. But I wasn't making the connection to Jung. It was Peterson and then James Hillman through whom I came back to Jung not primarily as a personality theory but as a means of tapping into my own psyche through the phenomenology of the image. That's what I'm espousing here. It's a way obscured by dogmatic religion and this high tech cyber-bombarded age. The image is the font of thought. Hypnagogic consciousness is the gateway to such mysteries of the pleroma as can be experienced in this life. Don't take my word for it. Connect with it yourself.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:50 pm

Hypnagogic consciousness is closely related to the phenomenon that Jung called active imagination. These phenomena often occur while falling asleep (hypnagogic) or waking up (hypnopompic). That such states are not necessarily nonsensical or trivial can be seen by the fact that Rene Descartes may have conceived of analytic geometry while in a hypnopompic state. I read that Descartes considered the period upon awakening in the morning his most mentally lucid and productive times.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Dan~ » Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:24 am

felix dakat wrote:I am a novice in the mode of life I am now living and trying to express on this thread. In the early 90s on reading the existential philosophers Tillich and Heidegger and Jaspers I embarked on a path of living according to being instead of instrumental knowledge. But I wasn't making the connection to Jung. It was Peterson and then James Hillman through whom I came back to Jung not primarily as a personality theory but as a means of tapping into my own psyche through the phenomenology of the image. That's what I'm espousing here. It's a way obscured by dogmatic religion and this high tech cyber-bombarded age. The image is the font of thought. Hypnagogic consciousness is the gateway to such mysteries of the pleroma as can be experienced in this life. Don't take my word for it. Connect with it yourself.

I've never heard of these people before.

Do they have youtube channels?
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