Wholeness

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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Wed May 05, 2021 6:10 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Bob wrote:
The book I’m reading is:
Nixey, Catherine. The Darkening Age: The Christian Destruction of the Classical World. Pan Macmillan. Kindle-Version.
.


This is a topic that never grows stale.
And with each generation needs to be heard again, since Gibbon dished the dirt on christianity in his Decline and Fall.

I think the rot started when Justinian closed down the philosophical schools in Greece, the autocracy of Constatine meant the persucution of so-called, and newly dubbed "Pagans", until a monoculture of bigotry reigned until the Enlightenment.


Where do you stand in the prevailing modern multiculture to reach those conclusions?
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Wed May 05, 2021 7:29 pm

polishyouthgotipbanned wrote:I dont even feel a need to defend Christianity from lying kooks accusations anymore. You are wrong factually but it is a fool's errand anyhow, even if you were completely right(and you are not); since nobody sane can claim that religion from over two thousand years ago is the same as the religion now, that scholasticism did not lay the groundwork for modern science, and that the civilizations of Antiquity were tolerant and progressive or conversely, that Medival Europe was not a fertile ground for what came afterwards because of its cosmopolitanism and its division of power and protection for free-thinking monks from the oppression of the aristocracy and conversely, the protection of the free-thinking civilians from the Church by the aristocracy itself and later by the Catholic/Protestant split, which turned Europe into the most free-thinking and democratic society known to human-kind.


Right. Holland contrasts the modern democracy with that of ancient Greece. Jefferson could think that the principle that all men are created equal was self-evident because the presupposition that Man was created in the image of God (both male and female by the way) is embedded in Western society by Judeo-Christian cultural history.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Wed May 05, 2021 7:31 pm

polishyouthgotipbanned wrote:This reminds me of this autistic Lyssa delusions and lies. A strong woman in Ancient Greece :-? :-? :-? ok...Canadian kooks can have it their own way.


Lyssa?
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby promethean75 » Wed May 05, 2021 8:35 pm

She was a mediogre poster from back in the day.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Wed May 05, 2021 11:05 pm

Ah... Thank you.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Bob » Thu May 06, 2021 8:52 am

felix dakat wrote:
Sculptor wrote:
Bob wrote:
The book I’m reading is:
Nixey, Catherine. The Darkening Age: The Christian Destruction of the Classical World. Pan Macmillan. Kindle-Version.
.


This is a topic that never grows stale.
And with each generation needs to be heard again, since Gibbon dished the dirt on christianity in his Decline and Fall.

I think the rot started when Justinian closed down the philosophical schools in Greece, the autocracy of Constatine meant the persucution of so-called, and newly dubbed "Pagans", until a monoculture of bigotry reigned until the Enlightenment.


Where do you stand in the prevailing modern multiculture to reach those conclusions?

A new topic: https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 5&t=197012
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby encode_decode » Thu May 06, 2021 10:38 am

promethean75 wrote:She was a mediogre poster from back in the day.

Have you ever explored the bizarre characteristics of Uranus? lol, this is related to a title of a video on YouTube - I just messed with it.
I have never watched that video either - because you were clearly wondering that, hahaha.

Is polish not referring to the ancient greek spirit of mad rage?

I guess Lyssa could have been a mediocre poster compared to some of her greek counterparts.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Thu May 06, 2021 2:04 pm






It seems that unless we take up the issue directly by exhaustive first person research, we are at the mercy of dueling historians whose propositions we evaluate through the lens of the presuppositions we come to the subject with due to our childhood indoctrination.

As early as I can remember I was taught about the evils of state religion and the virtues of the separation of church and state that led to the dark ages. So what's new here?

I reposted this on the new thread.

The controversy reminds me a bit of the current political debate about the cancel culture. Thus does the world divide our soul on a daily basis. The Tao de Ching reminds us to seek the center.
Last edited by felix dakat on Thu May 06, 2021 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby polishyouthgotipbanned » Thu May 06, 2021 2:16 pm

Lyssa the SHITthyself poster that had to leave because SATIRE decided he does not like Nietzsche after not reading him for the second time and whos posts which made up her argument with SATIRE leading up to her shadow-ban were deleted by the autistic neo-nazi SHITthyself dullard kooks in an attempt to protect their guru. Satyr is a really insecure person because deep down he knows he is a pretentious and unedcuated dullard kook who is just pulling shit out of his arse and throwing accusations left and right like a rabies dog.
At the beginning there was only Chaos, Night, dark Erebus, and deep Tartarus. Earth, the air and heaven had no existence. Firstly, blackwinged Night laid a germless egg in the bosom of the infinite deeps of Erebus, and from this, after the revolution of long ages, sprang the graceful Eros with his glittering golden wings, swift as the whirlwinds of the tempest. He mated in deep Tartarus with dark Chaos, winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race, which was the first to see the light. That of the Immortals did nove yielded themselves to their lovers when almost at the end of their youth, being led away by the gift of a quail, a waterfowl, a goose, or a cock.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Thu May 06, 2021 2:30 pm

Ah... well, there you go!
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Sat May 15, 2021 6:41 pm

Rather than talking about God, it makes more sense to me to refer to Ultimate Reality or, even better, the Ultimate Mystery. That, I believe, is what "God" represents.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Bob » Sat May 15, 2021 9:22 pm

felix dakat wrote:Rather than talking about God, it makes more sense to me to refer to Ultimate Reality or, even better, the Ultimate Mystery. That, I believe, is what "God" represents.

A phenomenon that in principle eludes unambiguous statement and explanation? Yes, I think that is an apt circumscription, although the apophatic seems to have been well-tried, and fitted as well as anything else.

I think our problem lies in the fact that our vocabulary wears out after a while, especially when words have become empty and lose their dynamic. That is why some mystics used the language of lovers, or used poetry to describe their relationship with that Ultimate Mystery that was so elusive.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Ierrellus » Sun May 16, 2021 1:13 pm

Even if it cannot be expressed in words, the Godspell or immediate awareness of the Whole, can be discussed as a real experience. Were this not so, the concept of a God or the God would have faded from our vocabularies over the centuries.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Mon May 17, 2021 12:20 am

felix dakat wrote:Rather than talking about God, it makes more sense to me to refer to Ultimate Reality or, even better, the Ultimate Mystery. That, I believe, is what "God" represents.


Reply
God doesn't "represent" those things. God is those things.


Right, but the God that can be represented or talked about is not the ultimate one. That one is beyond human comprehension, language and representation. So, in a sense, everything we say about God is wrong. Everything we say about God is at best metaphoric. This includes the statement that God is one and the statement that God is. As absolutely unique and transcendent God is beyond one. One only points to God metaphorically as it were. And since God must be being itself, it cannot be said that God is. Rather, God is the ground of everything that is. In sum, though I am here using words, my words are paradoxical because God is beyond words. Therefore the word God represents that which cannot be spoken, the ineffable, the ultimate mystery.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Mon May 17, 2021 1:02 am

Bob wrote:
felix dakat wrote:Rather than talking about God, it makes more sense to me to refer to Ultimate Reality or, even better, the Ultimate Mystery. That, I believe, is what "God" represents.

A phenomenon that in principle eludes unambiguous statement and explanation? Yes, I think that is an apt circumscription, although the apophatic seems to have been well-tried, and fitted as well as anything else.

I think our problem lies in the fact that our vocabulary wears out after a while, especially when words have become empty and lose their dynamic. That is why some mystics used the language of lovers, or used poetry to describe their relationship with that Ultimate Mystery that was so elusive.


Yes and...
God as Absolute Mystery
Rahner often prefers the term "mystery" to that of "God".He identifies the God of Absolute Being as Absolute Mystery. At best, philosophy approaches God only asymptotically, evoking the question whether attempts to know God are in vain. Can the line between the human asymptote and the Mystery asymptote connect?

In Rahner's theology, the Absolute Mystery reveals himself in self-communication. Revelation, however, does not resolve the Mystery; it increases cognizance of God's incomprehensibility. Experiences of the mystery of themselves point people to the Absolute Mystery, "an always-ever-greater Mystery." Even in heaven, God will still be an incomprehensible mystery.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Rahner
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Mon May 17, 2021 1:09 am

Ierrellus wrote:Even if it cannot be expressed in words, the Godspell or immediate awareness of the Whole, can be discussed as a real experience. Were this not so, the concept of a God or the God would have faded from our vocabularies over the centuries.


Yes and we have only to consider the acts of supreme compassion and the heinous crimes committed in the name of God to begin to get some sense of the ambiguity involved in the word.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Ierrellus » Mon May 17, 2021 12:22 pm

Those who know God as the Whole of which they are a part will not commit heinous acts in the name of God. Crusaders and inquisitors see Others as separate from God, not as a part of God. Them and us are trademarks of separatism; but the divisions only reflect the divider; they are not in tune with the ultimate Reality. Ambiguity comes from watching and judging the ways of others, not from direct experience of the Whole.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Mon May 17, 2021 3:34 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Those who know God as the Whole of which they are a part will not commit heinous acts in the name of God. Crusaders and inquisitors see Others as separate from God, not as a part of God. Them and us are trademarks of separatism; but the divisions only reflect the divider; they are not in tune with the ultimate Reality. Ambiguity comes from watching and judging the ways of others, not from direct experience of the Whole.


Let's not forget that wholeness encompasses both the ego ideal and the shadow, the light and the dark, order and chaos. It exceeds the imagination in uniting opposites.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Mon May 17, 2021 4:04 pm

felix dakat wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:Those who know God as the Whole of which they are a part will not commit heinous acts in the name of God. Crusaders and inquisitors see Others as separate from God, not as a part of God. Them and us are trademarks of separatism; but the divisions only reflect the divider; they are not in tune with the ultimate Reality. Ambiguity comes from watching and judging the ways of others, not from direct experience of the Whole.


Let's not forget that wholeness encompasses both the ego ideal and the shadow, the light and the dark, order and chaos. It exceeds the imagination in uniting opposites.


Also there is the fact that, whether we are talking about an entity present at hand, our own selves, or the metaphysical absolute we can only ever know the whole in part.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Ierrellus » Tue May 18, 2021 12:13 pm

Felix,
Do you believe the Whole contains what we describe as good and evil, as was noted in the book of Job?
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Ierrellus » Tue May 25, 2021 12:26 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Felix,
Do you believe the Whole contains what we describe as good and evil, as was noted in the book of Job?

I'd say good and evil are human ways of thinking about loss or gain; and, perhaps have nothing to do with any description of God's so-called attributes.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Tue May 25, 2021 2:43 pm

Ierrellus wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:Felix,
Do you believe the Whole contains what we describe as good and evil, as was noted in the book of Job?

I'd say good and evil are human ways of thinking about loss or gain; and, perhaps have nothing to do with any description of God's so-called attributes.


Sorry I missed your question until now. Everything must be contained in the whole. A disordered whole is chaos. An ordered integrated whole is a harmonious union of opposites including the opposites of good and evil. The goal of individuation is to bring the repressed shadow side of our being to consciousness and through this process to integrate it and transform it, and thus reach our full potential. Thanks for reminding me.

It is actually possible to become preoccupied with the evil shadow side of ourselves. For example a man might be preoccupied with his cowardice in the face of a threat. The threat could be quite serious such as a terminal disease. Focusing on this negative aspect of himself the man might lose sight of other resources of his psyche such as the ego ideal of his imagination which would give him a balanced view of the threat and enable him to face his fear heroically.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Ierrellus » Wed May 26, 2021 12:06 pm

Then good and evil are the yin/yang of the soul? Perhaps Buddhists and Taoists have worked out problems of the human psyche better than we of the West can.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Wed May 26, 2021 9:43 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Then good and evil are the yin/yang of the soul? Perhaps Buddhists and Taoists have worked out problems of the human psyche better than we of the West can.


I contemplate the Tao everyday. Jung's psychology was informed by Taoism. He understood that psychic health consisted of a unity of opposites. Western tradition shares this understanding at an esoteric level as one discovers when one studies the perennial philosophy.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Ierrellus » Thu May 27, 2021 2:59 pm

See William Blake's poem "The Tyger" for the yin/yang of God's creations.
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