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Tab wrote:What's 'wholeness' in this context..?
felix dakat wrote:To paraphrase CG Jung, wholeness is a gift which can't be fabricated by art or science. You have to grow into it.
In positive psychology, a flow state, also known colloquially as being in the zone, is the mental state in which a person performing an activity is fully immersed in a feeling of energized focus, full involvement, and enjoyment in the process of the activity. In essence, flow is characterized by the complete absorption in what one does, and a resulting transformation in one's sense of time.
-wiki
felix dakat wrote:Wholeness or integration is the goal toward which the individuation process tends, a condition in which all the different elements of the psyche both conscious and unconscious are united harmoniously. It's a consciousness detached from the world. Jung claimed that a person that achieves this goal possesses an attitude that is beyond the reach of emotional entanglements and violent shocks.
felix dakat wrote:Tab wrote:What's 'wholeness' in this context..?
Wholeness or integration is the goal toward which the individuation process tends, a condition in which all the different elements of the psyche both conscious and unconscious are united harmoniously. It's a consciousness detached from the world. Jung claimed that a person that achieves this goal possesses an attitude that is beyond the reach of emotional entanglements and violent shocks.
Tab wrote:Felix, a question: To what degree do you think individuals actively shape themselves in life, and to what degree do you believe they are shaped by circumstance..?
Sorry - rl stuff - you can do the heavy lifting lol.
felix dakat wrote:To paraphrase CG Jung, wholeness is a gift which can't be fabricated by art or science. You have to grow into it.
iambiguous wrote:felix dakat wrote:To paraphrase CG Jung, wholeness is a gift which can't be fabricated by art or science. You have to grow into it.
We'll need a context of course.
felix dakat wrote:Tab wrote:Felix, a question: To what degree do you think individuals actively shape themselves in life, and to what degree do you believe they are shaped by circumstance..?
Sorry - rl stuff - you can do the heavy lifting lol.
If you include factors of both nature and nurture under the circumstance category, and by "shaping themselves" you mean freely choosing, then it seems very little. But we are not closed systems. Perception and self-consciousness enter into the feedback loop as determining factors. Rather than thinking of myself as freely choosing, it makes more sense to me to think of my conscious ego as in dialogue with my unconscious psyche.
Tab wrote:felix dakat wrote:Tab wrote:Felix, a question: To what degree do you think individuals actively shape themselves in life, and to what degree do you believe they are shaped by circumstance..?
Sorry - rl stuff - you can do the heavy lifting lol.
If you include factors of both nature and nurture under the circumstance category, and by "shaping themselves" you mean freely choosing, then it seems very little. But we are not closed systems. Perception and self-consciousness enter into the feedback loop as determining factors. Rather than thinking of myself as freely choosing, it makes more sense to me to think of my conscious ego as in dialogue with my unconscious psyche.
We think pretty much the same then. I think perhaps the only thing we can actively do is a) accept that we cannot change ourselves from the inside out - we cannot easily 'think ourselves better' and then b) actively try to expose ourselves to beneficial experience. Read widely is a good start, seek out the companionship of people who seem to be eh, 'good' for want of a better word. Discard or distance ourselves from bad influences as much as is possible, human or otherwise.
Tab wrote:Yeah, you're right. We need both. Two outsides. I like that idea.
We are so super-agreeable. So ok. Where do we go from here..? I feel like we both just observed the sky was blue. Then agreed it was blue.
Tab wrote:Okay, religion gets a bad rap I think because questioning it, and then rejecting dogma, is probably everyone's, or at least your common-or-garden internet philosopher's, jumping off point. And from observation, most people never ever get beyond that. It's like whoa, god is dead, behold ! I win philosophy !![]()
So yeah, lotta flak. God knows I did my fair share.
Blame it on religion's success lol. You don't see threads with titles like "Odin is bollocks." or "Wiccans are fools." etc.
Bask in the glory of God's ubiquity.
Moving on.
So, if personal individuation is partially a subjective journey into your own psychic landscape, and a bumpier, more random ride along the rollercoaster of life, presumably slightly more objective as reality will apply some quality control to our inner lives, then what is its ultimate goal, or even progressive goals..?
You can't really judge your own "wholeness" without bias, conscious or unconscious, which would seem to leave you dependent on the judgement of others. Which again would have you tied almost wholly, to circumstance, at the mercy of the collective - external to your endevor.
felix dakat wrote:Tab wrote:Okay, religion gets a bad rap I think because questioning it, and then rejecting dogma, is probably everyone's, or at least your common-or-garden internet philosopher's, jumping off point. And from observation, most people never ever get beyond that. It's like whoa, god is dead, behold ! I win philosophy !![]()
So yeah, lotta flak. God knows I did my fair share.
Blame it on religion's success lol. You don't see threads with titles like "Odin is bollocks." or "Wiccans are fools." etc.
Bask in the glory of God's ubiquity.
Moving on.
So, if personal individuation is partially a subjective journey into your own psychic landscape, and a bumpier, more random ride along the rollercoaster of life, presumably slightly more objective as reality will apply some quality control to our inner lives, then what is its ultimate goal, or even progressive goals..?
You can't really judge your own "wholeness" without bias, conscious or unconscious, which would seem to leave you dependent on the judgement of others. Which again would have you tied almost wholly, to circumstance, at the mercy of the collective - external to your endevor.
I could tell you what Jung and the Jungians and the archetypal psychologists say in the books [I've read a bunch of them] and the videos[ I've watched a bunch]. But, here's the thing about individuation is individual, and experiential. The task is to become aware of your own imagery. I studied cognitive behavioral psychotherapy which focused on awareness of the messages we tell ourselves. But, images underlie those messages. Jungian therapy is about becoming aware of them. And it's not about interpreting them so much as it is about dialogue with them. They are autonomous sub-personalities. Thereby, you can integrate your conscious ego with your unconscious Self. They are the daemons or demons of religious mythology that inhabit our being. Last night in my dreams I was having intercourse with a girlfriend. She wasn't really here. Could that be part of me--my anima, my feminine side, possessing me?
Tab wrote::D Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
Tab wrote:Okay, sometimes dream sex with dream girlfriend is just dream sex with dream girlfriend.
I dunno, it all just seems too subjective/primitive to be of much use except for chatting up facebook girls who believe in chakras. Even if we end up being able to make some sense of our inner symbolic language, what's it gonna say to us..? It sounds to me like these deamons are the remnants of prelinguistic times. The animal equivalent of thinking. Perhaps its the seat of Jordan Peterson's proposed deep brain structures that resonate with some archetypal story tropes.
On the other hand however, perhaps it is also the language of the hunch. Which might be useful if you're a pro poker player or an antiquities dealer.
The second dream was all about her vagina. Of course it was sexual, but it is also the organ of birth and, in this context, connotes rebirth. Death and rebirth is a recurring archetypal theme that is present in world mythology including Christianity.
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