theodicy

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Re: theodicy

Postby Ichthus77 » Thu Aug 18, 2022 10:05 pm

Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas

“ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “
Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive.
- Irenaeus
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Re: theodicy

Postby iambiguous » Thu Aug 18, 2022 10:19 pm

So much for turning the other cheek!!! :lol:
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

"Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?"

Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me."
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Re: theodicy

Postby Ichthus77 » Thu Aug 18, 2022 11:38 pm

This seems apropos. Not that I would even know what that word means.
https://youtu.be/xLnahXpHsN4
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas

“ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “
Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive.
- Irenaeus
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Re: theodicy

Postby Ecmandu » Thu Aug 18, 2022 11:41 pm

What do you want me to demonstrate to you iambiguous?

That people have things occur to them that they don’t want, and if they claim otherwise they are lying?

How about this... you’ve been blind here your whole life and you get furious at all these people who explain vision exists... or more to your style, you’re completely blind and ask them to demonstrate green to you, and then call them fulminating objectivist scum when they can’t.

Has it ever occurred to you that people actually have experiences besides yours? Senses you don’t have?

I know. It’s quite a shocker to you.

I’d say there’s easily a hundreds of millions of people who’ve had direct access to spirit where it can’t be ignored.
The purpose of life is to give everyone individually what they always want at the expense of no being - forever.

The biggest problem of life is the, “hey, I don’t want this to be happening” problem for everyone.

Welcome to thinking.
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Re: theodicy

Postby iambiguous » Fri Aug 19, 2022 1:32 am

Ecmandu wrote:What do you want me to demonstrate to you iambiguous?


Already noted that:

My focus here is not in examining what Ecmandu says about God and His insecurities...or enlightenment or forever or hyper-dimensionality. It's to ask him to demonstrate that what he says is the case regarding them is actually true such that experientially we can confirm this ourselves.


Also, how do you go about demonstrating to yourself that you have spoken to God, the Devil, Death and Buddha? What accumulation of evidence -- tapes, videos etc. -- have you collected?

Anything you can link the rest of us to?

Bottom line: one day with any luck you will ask yourself these questions. Then it might begin to dawn on you that, perhaps, you do have a "condition" that prompts you to believe so many things that virtually no one else does. Things you believe "in your head" but when push comes to shove you can never take beyond that.

Then you come in here and thank me for getting the ball rolling.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

"Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?"

Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me."
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Re: theodicy

Postby Ichthus77 » Fri Aug 19, 2022 1:59 am

Hindsight is the darnedest thing.
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas

“ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “
Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive.
- Irenaeus
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Re: theodicy

Postby Ecmandu » Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:06 am

All those beings were failures.

What interests me most is that an experience other than your own is intolerable to you.

I can perfectly accept that you have - a massive perception of existence - handicap.

You get very defensive, not just about the ordinary, but about the extraordinary.

Let’s say I’m full of shit and that I haven’t met these failed celebrities Who visited me in the flesh .

You think I have a condition first and foremost because I think if there’s a problem, that, that concept actually facilitates an objective discussion about existence as a whole.

That drives you nuts as well.

That your life purpose that anyone is wrong forever Because they might change their mind, is shattered.

Nobody changes their mind about consent violation.

Some people have coping mechanisms about it, but by definitional logic, nobody wants it.

That means everyone.

That’s objective.
The purpose of life is to give everyone individually what they always want at the expense of no being - forever.

The biggest problem of life is the, “hey, I don’t want this to be happening” problem for everyone.

Welcome to thinking.
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Re: theodicy

Postby iambiguous » Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:08 am

Note to Pedro:

Come and claim her please.

Talk about The Corner material!!
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

"Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?"

Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me."
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Re: theodicy

Postby Ecmandu » Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:22 am

Iambiguous.

The failure of our ancestors and modern times is that it was never transmitted globally that if anything bothers anyone for any reason, that existence isn’t working.

Because for the very first time... a person has to think.

Everyone has been philosophizing about straw men for countless eons.
The purpose of life is to give everyone individually what they always want at the expense of no being - forever.

The biggest problem of life is the, “hey, I don’t want this to be happening” problem for everyone.

Welcome to thinking.
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Re: theodicy

Postby iambiguous » Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:49 am

Ecmandu wrote:
Let’s say I’m full of shit and that I haven’t met these failed celebrities Who visited me in the flesh .


Hmm...

They visited you in the flesh but you want us to say that you haven't met them? More to the point though are you full of shit? Not in regard to what you tell us but regarding what you tell yourself. If they did visit you in the flesh then back to this:

"...how do you go about demonstrating to yourself that God, the Devil, Death and Buddha have visited you? What accumulation of evidence -- tapes, videos etc. -- have you collected?"

And how specifically do you demonstrate to others that they are failures...beyond [once again] what that simply means to you "in your head".

Ecmandu wrote:You think I have a condition first and foremost because I think if there’s a problem, that, that concept actually facilitates an objective discussion about existence as a whole.


I have absolutely no idea what this has to do with anything...concrete?

Look, I really know nothing substantial at all about you, right? Or, rather, online, I know only what you post here about yourself. And in your posts...time after time after time...you assert things that you believe are true "in your head" which many people find to be, well, simply unbelievable. If not ridiculous.

So, all I can do is press you to demonstrate that they are true. In particular regarding how you demonstrate them even to yourself.

How else if it is a "condition" are we going to work on it?

Or get you to admit that "Ecmandu" is just a character you play here.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

"Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?"

Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me."
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Re: theodicy

Postby iambiguous » Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:52 am

Ecmandu wrote:Iambiguous.

The failure of our ancestors and modern times is that it was never transmitted globally that if anything bothers anyone for any reason, that existence isn’t working.

Because for the very first time... a person has to think.

Everyone has been philosophizing about straw men for countless eons.


Note to Meno:

Did you put him up to this? Now that is evil!
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

"Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?"

Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me."
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Re: theodicy

Postby iambiguous » Sun Aug 21, 2022 6:06 pm

From PN:


attofishpi wrote:There is only one type of evil, and that is wo/man inflicting evil to other sentient beings (animals, wo/men, children)


Right. So, this part...

...an endless procession of earthquakes and volcanic eruptions and tornadoes and hurricanes and great floods and great droughts and great fires and deadly viral and bacterial plagues and miscarriages and hundreds and hundreds of medical and mental afflictions and extinction events...making life on Earth a living hell for countless millions of men, women and children down through the ages"

...is not evil because the loving, just and merciful God that creates the conditions that sustains them century after century after century after century works in "mysterious ways" far beyond the grasp of mere mortals.

And my own, at times, sardonic reaction to those here able to swallow that hook, line and sinker revolves mostly around the fact that I want God to exist. If only that there be an explanation for this terrible, terrible human suffering. After all, in a No God world these ghastly things are but the "brute facticity" of an essentially meaningless and purposeless human existence.

Right?

And, in part, I scoff at the True Believers here not because they believe what they do, but because they are unable to convince me to believe it as well.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

"Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?"

Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me."
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Re: theodicy

Postby iambiguous » Mon Aug 22, 2022 4:10 pm

From PN:

seeds wrote:You need to stop trying to reconcile the "...God that many believe in..." (which could be false and nonsensical) with your list of grievances,...

...and instead try to focus on whether or not an unfathomably advanced (and transcendent) Being who is capable of creating a hundred billion galaxies of suns and planets out of the living fabric of its very own mind, would have a logical reason for allowing such things?

In other words, stop basing your assessment of God's motives on the limited scope of the Epicurean riddle.

Furthermore, you might also try being open to the possibility that the "end"...

(eternal life in "true reality" with a wonderful, ever-evolving, and ever-fruitful purpose)

...may indeed "justify the means" by which we must momentarily function on this planet.
_______


How about this...

You go to a hospital like St. Jude and note the above to the children who are suffering from one of the more severe childhood afflictions here:

https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/chi ... conditions

See if that soothes their soul.

Of course, the doctors and the nurses and the parents of these kids are not likely to be focusing in on God's logic here. Instead, they have faith that, well beyond anything they could possibly understand about God's mysterious ways, one day their souls and the souls of all the departed will gather around their Creator in Paradise and -- as souls? -- live happily ever after.

Here, however, in a philosophy forum, it's not what we believe in our head is true about God and theodicy but what we are, to the best of our ability, able to demonstrate that all rational men and women are obligated to believe in turn.

Starting with proof that of all the countless renditions of God there are out there, your God is in fact the real deal.

Then moving on to theodicy.

Again, sure, for the sake of all the millions of truly innocent children down through the ages who suffered terribly from what the lawyers call "acts of God", I'd truly like to be convinced myself that, down the road, all is well that ends well in Heaven.

Give it a shot.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

"Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?"

Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me."
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Re: theodicy

Postby Ecmandu » Tue Aug 23, 2022 1:28 am

iambiguous wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:Iambiguous.

The failure of our ancestors and modern times is that it was never transmitted globally that if anything bothers anyone for any reason, that existence isn’t working.

Because for the very first time... a person has to think.

Everyone has been philosophizing about straw men for countless eons.


Note to Meno:

Did you put him up to this? Now that is evil!


By anyone... I mean anyone... not just you.

It’s interesting. When I first came back into my body after 30 years of research... I was narcissistic ...

I assumed everyone wanted everything they wanted forever at the expense of nobody.

And then I figured out that these billions of people only feel pleasure knowing another’s exclusion.

So I had to rework the plan to accommodate all of you.

Are you up for the job?

Didn’t think so.
The purpose of life is to give everyone individually what they always want at the expense of no being - forever.

The biggest problem of life is the, “hey, I don’t want this to be happening” problem for everyone.

Welcome to thinking.
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Re: theodicy

Postby iambiguous » Tue Aug 23, 2022 1:48 am

Ecmandu wrote:
By anyone... I mean anyone... not just you.

It’s interesting. When I first came back into my body after 30 years of research... I was narcissistic ...

I assumed everyone wanted everything they wanted forever at the expense of nobody.

And then I figured out that these billions of people only feel pleasure knowing another’s exclusion.

So I had to rework the plan to accommodate all of you.

Are you up for the job?

Didn’t think so.


Note to Meno:

Not to worry. He's not even close. You're still by far the most unintelligible poster here.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

"Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?"

Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me."
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Re: theodicy

Postby iambiguous » Fri Aug 26, 2022 5:13 pm

Saint Thomas Aquinas and the Nature of Evil
From the Thomistic Philosophy website

The ultimate motivation even of moral evil, though, still arises from a desire for some good, but for a lesser good when one is supposed to choose a higher one. Or it arises from the desire for a good that is not appropriate to a given time or place of circumstance.


Some good, lesser good, higher good. Yours or mine? Here and now or there and then? In reaction to what situation we are all likely to be familiar with?

In a world where what some construe to be a moral good others constue to be a moral evil.

Instead, as per usual, let's keep it all up in the stratosphere of the abstract:

So, for Aquinas (following Aristotle), no one chooses evil as evil; rather one makes an evil choice when one chooses a good which reason should know is lesser or inappropriate instead of the true good. The evil, then, of moral evils depends entirely on the free agent who deprives their own actions of the moral goodness, or rationality, which such acts are due as acts of a rational, human, agent. The free rational agent is solely responsible for the act being deprived of the goodness it should have.


I am often baffled by this. Don't those who note a conclusion like this ever stop to think that out in the real world of actual human interactions, it can be made applicable to those all up and down the moral and political spectrum?

Even the assumption of autonomy, free will, volition, etc., often never goes much beyond a conceptual, theoretical "world of words" philosophical assessment.

Getting back to natural or physical evil, it may be hard to see how such evils are supposed to be privations. We tend to view the natural evils that tell against God’s goodness as natural disasters, diseases, birth defects and ultimately death. Earthquakes that devastate whole cities and cripple or kill thousands or tens of thousands of innocent people. Virus outbreaks which kill millions or cancers which slowly and painfully take the life of innocent children. The earth or water which move and bury or drown people are real things, not privations; the viruses and cancers which take the lives of their victims are not the lack of something, but biological entities with a kind of life of their own.


Please. As though "natural disasters, diseases, birth defects and ultimately death" are not directly linked to a God, the God, your God bringing them about in the first place. It's not for nothing that whenever the media is covering the latest natural disaster, you often find references to God among those being interviewed. Often in a place of worship. Mostly they revolve around God's mysterious ways, but every once in a while, you have someone bitterly rejecting their God. "How could God let this happen?!!"

Then, for others, cue Harold Kushner.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

"Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?"

Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me."
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Re: theodicy

Postby Ichthus77 » Fri Aug 26, 2022 8:01 pm

Only have Time to say “proper (dys)function and cognitive (dis)order have no meaning apart from an original position/intension of homeostasis/harmony/wholeness/health/…LIFE”.


*mic drop*

Pick that up for me, will ya iBig? I’ll just stand back here out of your way…
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas

“ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “
Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive.
- Irenaeus
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Re: theodicy

Postby iambiguous » Fri Aug 26, 2022 8:07 pm

Uh, define "clever"? :lol:
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

"Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?"

Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me."
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Re: theodicy

Postby Arcturus Descending » Fri Aug 26, 2022 9:20 pm

Ichthus77 wrote:I’m so sorry. I have to interject. God SAID there would be persecution. That means he is still in control when it happens. And stuff after that fulfilled prophecies, and weird stuff *keeps* happening even today.. and it’s GOING to get worse (before it gets better). But… without God… there is no real better/worse. Your intuition that it’s real… points to God/Good.

Sorry to intrude, Biggy.


Is this response for me, Ichthus. It followed mine.
BE MELTING SNOW. WASH YOURSELF OF YOURSELF.

YOU WANDER FROM ROOM TO ROOM
HUNTING FOR THE DIAMOND NECKLACE
THAT IS ALREADY AROUND YOUR NECK!

DANCE UNTIL YOU SHATTER YOURSELF!

THERE IS A VOICE THAT DOESN'T USE WORDS. LISTEN!

LIFE IS A BALANCE BETWEEN HOLDING ON AND LETTING GO!

LET SILENCE TAKE YOU TO THE CORE OF LIFE!
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Re: theodicy

Postby Ichthus77 » Fri Aug 26, 2022 11:43 pm

Yes, but also Biggy’s sadistic god comment.

As far as this quote, I’ll put the relevant stuff in bold:

Arcturus Descending wrote:Ecmandu wrote:

The moment you question the power of god is the moment you separate yourself from god.


That is not necessarily true. It may be the moment in which you come to realize that perhaps God is not, in actuality, as you think/thought Him to be...as many others do also. Thinking "out of the box" may in a sense be bringing one closer to God since you are now "seeing" God in a truer light...albeit a more mysterious one.

We are stretching ourselves, going beyond our old and lazy beliefs, creating a new mindset and perspective, growing up spiritually, when we question the "real" power of God.

Three million Jews were destroyed, murdered, during the Nazi occupation and the holocaust. They were God's chosen people supposedly. Who would at least not take a moment to question God's power/omnipotence, while thinking of this? It really is not a "good fit" is it? So perhaps God is not so much about being all powerful but about being who knows what? Perhaps the all-powerful part has more to do with who WE are rather than with who God is.

Anyway, insofar as your statement is concerned, that might also depend on the individual and that individual's faith, confidence and trust in God.


Also, I disagree with “Ec” (you were answering him) that questioning God separates us from him in a bad way (as opposed to just showing we are NOT him). God invites us to contend and reason with him. He invites us to ask, seek, and knock. I have given examples at least a couple times of this being biblical/historical.
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas

“ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “
Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive.
- Irenaeus
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Re: theodicy

Postby Ichthus77 » Fri Aug 26, 2022 11:44 pm

Redefine power if you think it means remote controlling everyone like robots.
Fall semester ends 12/16/22. Apologies if I do not reply immediately.

“In choosing myself, I choose the other.”
- A marriage of Sartre & Levinas

“ Gloria Dei est vivens homo. “
Trans.: The glory of God is man fully alive.
- Irenaeus
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Re: theodicy

Postby iambiguous » Sun Sep 04, 2022 5:14 pm

Saint Thomas Aquinas and the Nature of Evil
From the Thomistic Philosophy website

Evil and Objective Natures

The fact that evil is a privation of a due good implies that whatever things suffer natural or physical evil have objective natures. That is, they exist as belonging to certain classes or categories of things, for, the goodness or perfection that a thing is supposed to have is determined by the kind of thing it is. This is the thing’s nature, the internal principle whereby it is what it is, and does what is characteristic of things of that sort. Dogs, humans and other animals for that matter, have each their own objective nature that is supposed to see; this truth underlies the fact that when they do not see, they have suffered a natural or physical evil.


Oh well, here we go again...

Let's talk about evil. But let's talk about it in such a way that, in regard to the lives that we actually live, it is barely recognizable. Instead, let's entangle it in the intellectual contraptions we concoct to discuss "privations" and "classes and categories" and "goodness and perfection" and "human nature".

Human nature. As opposed to the nature of dogs.

Of course, dogs don't invent philosophy forums on an internet to ponder evil in their world. Let alone Gods to explain it all away.

Aquinas explains that the objective nature of a thing specifies its various perfections, goods which do (or should) belong to it, for it to be complete in its being.


Okay, how then did he go about demonstrating the existence of the Christian God? And how on Earth -- beyond the "spiritual contraptions" he thought up in his head -- did he go about demonstrating God's loving, just and merciful nature given the world that we do live in?

Does this...

"Everything is said to be good so far as it is perfect; for in that way only is it desirable (as shown above. Now a thing is said to be perfect if it lacks nothing according to the mode of its perfection. But since everything is what it is by its form (and since the form presupposes certain things, and from the form certain things necessarily follow), in order for a thing to be perfect and good it must have a form, together with all that precedes and follows upon that form. . . . But the form itself is signified by the species; for everything is placed in its species by its form. . . . Further, upon the form follows an inclination to the end, or to an action, or something of the sort; for everything, in so far as it is in act, acts and tends towards that which is in accordance with its form."

...work for you?

An intellectual/spiritual contraption on steroids? Imagine going out into the world and every time you came upon a human tragedy revolving around one or another "act of God" -- natural disasters, hideous diseases -- you gathered all the victims around and noted that.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

"Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?"

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Re: theodicy

Postby phenomenal_graffiti » Wed Sep 07, 2022 12:01 am

Okay, how then did he go about demonstrating the existence of the Christian God? And how on Earth -- beyond the "spiritual contraptions" he thought up in his head -- did he go about demonstrating God's loving, just and merciful nature given the world that we do live in?

Does this...

"Everything is said to be good so far as it is perfect; for in that way only is it desirable (as shown above. Now a thing is said to be perfect if it lacks nothing according to the mode of its perfection. But since everything is what it is by its form (and since the form presupposes certain things, and from the form certain things necessarily follow), in order for a thing to be perfect and good it must have a form, together with all that precedes and follows upon that form. . . . But the form itself is signified by the species; for everything is placed in its species by its form. . . . Further, upon the form follows an inclination to the end, or to an action, or something of the sort; for everything, in so far as it is in act, acts and tends towards that which is in accordance with its form."

...work for you?

An intellectual/spiritual contraption on steroids? Imagine going out into the world and every time you came upon a human tragedy revolving around one or another "act of God" -- natural disasters, hideous diseases -- you gathered all the victims around and noted that.


I suppose, then, human tragedy is just "a collocation of atoms" (Bertrand Russell), barring the question of whether or not mind-independent atoms exist.
Q: What lies beyond the "Matrix" that is consciousness?

A: The conscious and unconscious mind of God.


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Re: theodicy

Postby iambiguous » Wed Sep 14, 2022 3:39 pm

Saint Thomas Aquinas and the Nature of Evil
From the Thomistic Philosophy website

The Problem of Good (or of Natures)

The reality of evil actually gives implicit support for God’s existence and knowledge of his goodness. Since evil is real, and since, as a privation of goods or perfections that are supposed to be present in good things that exist in their own right, the occurrence of real evils actually depends on goodness, goodness which is found in varying degrees of perfections according to the objective natures in things.


Of course, my argument revolves around the assumption [mine] that in the absence of God, evil itself can only be an existential prejudice, a subjective predilection, a personal opinion. Not only regarding the existence of evil in and of itself but what is said to be evil as well. After all, there are many, many religious faiths that all subscribe to one or another God. And while to a faith they accept the reality of evil, there may be any number of differences between them regarding what particular behaviors are evil. And yet with immortality and salvation literally on the line given the behaviors that you choose on this side of the grave, what's a mere mortal to do? Must he or she not choose the One True Path? Why yours and not theirs?

Same with goodness in contrast to evil. All of the different understandings of that. Which one sends you up, which one sends you down?

You tell me what this...

"...goodness which is found in varying degrees of perfections according to the objective natures in things..."

...means in regard to the behaviors that you choose.

And all of the faiths that subscribe to the belief that it is their duty on Earth to proselytize...to save souls from damnation. Have they got it wrong?

This all implies there is an all good Creator of good things, who is the objective standard of perfection. Aquinas concludes to the reality of God on this basis in the fourth of his famous Five Ways of proving the existence of God.


Yes, if you believe in a God, the God, your God, and this God is the God that Aquinas is now in sync with in Heaven, you too can insist that all of this implies "there is an all-good Creator of good things, who is the objective standard of perfection". In your head, for example. Actually demonstrating this such that all rational people are obligated to believe the same...?

The Fourth argument: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_degree

So, how would you go about demonstrating that all rational men and women are obligated to agree that one can -- must? -- connect the dots between this argument as an intellectual/spiritual contraption to the actual existence of the Christian God.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

"Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?"

Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me."
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Re: theodicy

Postby iambiguous » Wed Sep 14, 2022 8:01 pm

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/14/worl ... loods.html

'DADU, Pakistan — The view from Muhammad Jaffar’s small, mud brick home in southern Pakistan used to bring him a sense of relief. Rolling fields of green cotton shrubs had started just steps from his door, their white blooms offering the promise of enough income for his family to survive the year.

'Now his fields, along with other vast swaths of Pakistan, are under green, putrid water. About two weeks ago, in one of the latest rounds of record-shattering flooding that has afflicted the country since June, his land was completely submerged, including his well for drinking water.

'“We are living on an island now,” Mr. Jaffar, 40, told visiting New York Times journalists on Tuesday.

'The devastating floods have inundated hundreds of villages across much of Pakistan’s fertile land. In Sindh Province in the south, the floodwater has effectively transformed what was once farmland into two large lakes that have engulfed entire villages and turned others into fragile islands. The flooding is the worst to hit the country in recent history, according to Pakistani officials. They warn that it may take three to six months for the floodwaters to recede.

'So far, around 1,500 people have died — nearly half of whom are children — and more than 33 million have been displaced from their homes by the floods, which were caused by heavier-than-usual monsoon rains and glacial melt.

'In Dadu District, one of the worst hit areas in Sindh Province in southern Pakistan, the floodwater has completely submerged roughly 300 villages and marooned scores of others. Across the province, around 40,000 square miles of land — about the size of the state of Virginia — is now underwater, officials say.'


On the other hand, had they been Christians?

Or the same old same old: God's mysterious ways.

And me, I suspect my own reaction revolves around reading such grim stories and wanting to believe it is all God and His mysterious ways. Why? Because at least that's an explanation. And maybe in the end it is all for the best. It is all still in sync with a loving, just and merciful God.

Otherwise, you have to accept that there is no reason for this terrible human pain and suffering. It just happened. And for no ultimate reason whatsoever. You're just in the wrong place at the wrong time when nature comes calling.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

"Sure, it works in practice, but does it work in theory?"

Danny Embling: "People wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me."
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