Jupiter and Saturn, European Paganism never Ended...

For intuitive and critical discussions, from spirituality to theological doctrines. Fair warning: because the subject matter is personal, moderation is strict.

Moderator: Dan~

Re: Jupiter and Saturn, European Paganism never Ended...

Postby felix dakat » Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:01 pm

Mad Man P. You informed me about your assumption and I reciprocated.
User avatar
felix dakat
Janitor
 
Posts: 10930
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:20 am
Location: USA

Re: Jupiter and Saturn, European Paganism never Ended...

Postby Mad Man P » Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:48 pm

felix dakat wrote:Mad Man P. You informed me about your assumption and I reciprocated.


I didn't, but even assuming I did, what did you hope to accomplish by reciprocating?
There are no stupid questions, just stupid people.
User avatar
Mad Man P
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2801
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:32 pm
Location: Denmark

Re: Jupiter and Saturn, European Paganism never Ended...

Postby Bob » Thu Jan 27, 2022 1:40 pm

Mad Man P wrote:
felix dakat wrote:Mad Man P. You informed me about your assumption and I reciprocated.


I didn't, but even assuming I did, what did you hope to accomplish by reciprocating?

It is a discussion forum, so is it a surprise to you to get an opinion to something you have posted?
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
TS Eliot
When you are out of touch with reality you will easily embrace a delusion, and equally put in doubt the most basic elements of existence. If this reminds you of the mindset of the present day materialist science and philosophy establishments, as well as of the loudest voices in the socio-political debate, we should not be particularly surprised, since they show all the signs of attending with the left hemisphere alone. I live in the hope that that may soon change: for without a change we are lost.
McGilchrist, Iain . The Matter With Things: Our Brains, Our Delusions and the Unmaking of the World (S.562). Perspectiva Press. Kindle-Version.
User avatar
Bob
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4212
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 6:20 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Jupiter and Saturn, European Paganism never Ended...

Postby Mad Man P » Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:49 pm

Bob wrote:It is a discussion forum, so is it a surprise to you to get an opinion to something you have posted?


Let's say I vacationed in China and came away with an impression of chinese culture, it's entirely anecdotal but at least it's evidenced by the experiences I had.
You then tell me that you assume I have the wrong impression of chinese culture... Which amounts to informing me that you prefer to believe I am wrong...
What is there to respond to other than to question the purpose of announcing it?
So that's what I did... question the purpose.

But to answer your question:
Yes... it's a discussion forum, not a youtube comment section.
I expect responses to generate or further a discussion not add inane commentary... but alas, I'm often disappointed these days.
There are no stupid questions, just stupid people.
User avatar
Mad Man P
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2801
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:32 pm
Location: Denmark

Re: Jupiter and Saturn, European Paganism never Ended...

Postby felix dakat » Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:15 pm

Mad Man P wrote:
felix dakat wrote:Those countervailing tendencies both exist among Americans.


I assume you mean they exist in equal measure... otherwise this is a trivial statement
User avatar
felix dakat
Janitor
 
Posts: 10930
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:20 am
Location: USA

Re: Jupiter and Saturn, European Paganism never Ended...

Postby felix dakat » Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:16 pm

Mad Man P wrote:
felix dakat wrote:Mad Man P. You informed me about your assumption and I reciprocated.


I didn't, but even assuming I did, what did you hope to accomplish by reciprocating?


I hoped it would be a free exchange of ideas.
User avatar
felix dakat
Janitor
 
Posts: 10930
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:20 am
Location: USA

Re: Jupiter and Saturn, European Paganism never Ended...

Postby Mad Man P » Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:42 am

felix dakat wrote:
Mad Man P wrote:
felix dakat wrote:Those countervailing tendencies both exist among Americans.


I assume you mean they exist in equal measure... otherwise this is a trivial statement


That is an invitation to clarify the meaning of your statement... as you left me no other choice but to make an assumption and I made the charitable one.

felix dakat wrote:I hoped it would be a free exchange of ideas.


Are inane comments ideas?
There are no stupid questions, just stupid people.
User avatar
Mad Man P
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2801
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:32 pm
Location: Denmark

Re: Jupiter and Saturn, European Paganism never Ended...

Postby felix dakat » Fri Jan 28, 2022 6:07 am

Mad Man P wrote:
I assume you mean they exist in equal measure... otherwise this is a trivial statement.

That is an invitation to clarify the meaning of your statement... as you left me no other choice but to make an assumption and I made the charitable one.

Are inane comments ideas?


Bono’s quip was to me an amusing stereotype of American and European sentiments. If you maintain it’s literally true, back it up with statistical evidence and I’ll concede the point. I don’t think you can. Prove me wrong.
User avatar
felix dakat
Janitor
 
Posts: 10930
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:20 am
Location: USA

Re: Jupiter and Saturn, European Paganism never Ended...

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:42 am

felix dakat wrote:Why don’t you mention the proposition that Jupiter “is actually” Zeus? Or that Saturn “is actually” Hades?

Theology, Mysticism, History, and Politics are a deep well to draw from. I admit that, the further this ideology strays from Philosophy, the less I am equipped to speak upon it all. Instead I recognize the Generality first. It made sense to me, to connect Jupiter to 'God' and Saturn to 'Satan'. I doubt that I'm the first with this observation. In fact, rewind 1000 and 2000 years ago, perhaps it was the "common sense" of the Era back then...


felix dakat wrote:“Is actually” begs the ontological question. How is any god anything? In other words what is the thingness of a god? If gods are not material beings in what way can they be said to exist? If they are spiritual beings, what is spirit? If they are mere figments of the imagination, how can it be said that one “is actually” another? Isn’t each figment “actually” uniquely itself and no other? And what is that exactly?

I agree with your line-of-questioning. I've posed this exact string of arguments against Christians since I was young. I have never met a person, unless they are admittedly a strict 'Fundamentalist' that could answer such questions with Confidence.

So then I pretended that the questions & answers were Allegorical. Then it made sense. "Spirit" can mean male Ejaculate, for example. "The Afterlife" can mean, literally, your progeny, children, grandchildren, etc. "Soul" refers to the collective spirit and genealogy of specific human Lineages/Societies/Collectives, etc.

The problem with this, then, is a complete lack of Authority. It boils down to "well, that's just your interpretation and your opinion". People discount all Mysticism unless it is backed by religious Authorities. Do you recognize me as a Religious Authority, or I you? Probably not, therefore, people aren't going to take the Allegorical meanings and definitions seriously ...even when they're true or accurate. And that is the greater difficulty, speaking upon all of these different topics and their minutiæ.


felix dakat wrote:You are asserting that there is a historical-social phenomenon whereby one god “becomes” another. Is the name the only thing about the god that changed? If more than that changes, how can one god be said to “actually” be another?

If the names of Gods changes, over time, then it I suspect is rather elongated process. It's slow. The bigger the God, the more difficult and slowly that God 'changes'. And the "change" is the relationship that the God has with the Observer -- between Deity and Humanity.

To understand all these properly, people would need to look into History and beyond the political disputes between Authoritative Religions. Because this one "God" is owned by this religion. And that one "God" is owned by that religion. And not even they will agree on pivotal aspects of their Deities.

This is why I cut-to-the-chase quickly. Do Christians, Jews, and Moslems actually believe in the same Abrahamic God?? I very much doubt it.

Because they cannot even agree to share the same texts.
Urwrongx1000
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7798
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: Jupiter and Saturn, European Paganism never Ended...

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:46 am

Mad Man P wrote:I don't know that this is true... I think the distinction you're trying to make was best made by Bono of all people (or at least, that's where I first heard it).
In the US when you drive by the big mansion on the hill you look up at it and say "If I work really hard, one day I'll be the one who lives in that mansion"
In europe when we drive by that mansion we look up at it and say "One day, if I work really hard, I'll tear that sucker down!"

I think it's because in europe that mansion housed a tyrant and people's resentment for the blue blooded aristocracy is still alive.
America's history is a gold rush... a race to becoming the new aristocrats in a new world.
It's still classist, it's just re-framed as a positive, the dream of being the one in the mansion.

I disagree, although it's true that many Anglo "Whites" in the US (WASPs) want to be, and act like, European Classists... they are strongly rebuked by the Liberal-Leftist-Democrats, who actively 'balance' the plight of minority "victims", who "deserve" the "privileges" of the self-proclaimed Elitists.

I mean, your argument really is out-of-touch with the recent political upheavals in the United States.

Furthermore, just look at "Critical Race Theory" in the US public system.


In the US, "Class" is meshed and melded with "Race". And, to the benefit of racial and ethnic minorities, it does produce some degree of Equality by battling racial, ethnic, and society Prejudice.

Americans are taught, in the Public Education system, to judge a person by the "content of their character" (Individuality) before their race/creed/color/gender, etc.
Urwrongx1000
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7798
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: Jupiter and Saturn, European Paganism never Ended...

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:49 am

Maia wrote:
Bob wrote:The national faith in Europe, in the north even more than in the south, was pantheistic, its mysteries and symbols referred to a service of nature, in every element one worshipped miraculous beings, in every tree breathed a deity, the whole world of appearances was through-goddess; Christianity reversed this view, and in place of a through-goddess nature came a through-devil. However, the cheerful, artfully embellished forms of Greek mythology, which prevailed in the South with Roman civilization, could not be transformed into ugly, gruesome Satanic larvae as easily as the Germanic gods, which, of course, had not been modeled by any special sense of art and which had already been as discontented and gloomy as the North itself.
Heine, Heinrich. Zur Geschichte der Religion und Philosophie in Deutschland (German Edition) (p.22). Hofenberg. Kindle version.


That's a pretty good description of Paganism. Christianity has desacralised nature, and disconnected us from it. Not sure I would draw such a sharp distinction between the Northern and Classical traditions of Paganism, though.

I agree, except the reality is Inverted in the United States.

It is the Amish and Luddites, Christian Fundamentalists, who are strictly and specifically "at one with Nature" compared to other Americans, and even Europeans.

These are Farmer communities that forsake and ban Technological innovations (Electricity).


Electricity being, not ironically, the Symbol of Jupiter/Zeus/God.
Urwrongx1000
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7798
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: Jupiter and Saturn, European Paganism never Ended...

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:51 am

Mad Man P wrote:
Bob wrote:It is a discussion forum, so is it a surprise to you to get an opinion to something you have posted?


Let's say I vacationed in China and came away with an impression of chinese culture, it's entirely anecdotal but at least it's evidenced by the experiences I had.
You then tell me that you assume I have the wrong impression of chinese culture... Which amounts to informing me that you prefer to believe I am wrong...
What is there to respond to other than to question the purpose of announcing it?
So that's what I did... question the purpose.

But to answer your question:
Yes... it's a discussion forum, not a youtube comment section.
I expect responses to generate or further a discussion not add inane commentary... but alas, I'm often disappointed these days.

In my experience, when people transition to foreign Languages, there are steep divisions of meaning, context, and implication that are actively lost-in-translation.

Philosophers tend to, on average, be able to listen more clearly and intently than average people. Although there is more-than-enough criticism to go around this forum.


This is especially tricky when it comes to Theological/Deistic/Mythological debates/arguments, such as this thread.
Urwrongx1000
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7798
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: Jupiter and Saturn, European Paganism never Ended...

Postby Mad Man P » Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:02 pm

Urwrongx1000 wrote:I disagree, although it's true that many Anglo "Whites" in the US (WASPs) want to be, and act like, European Classists... they are strongly rebuked by the Liberal-Leftist-Democrats, who actively 'balance' the plight of minority "victims", who "deserve" the "privileges" of the self-proclaimed Elitists.

I mean, your argument really is out-of-touch with the recent political upheavals in the United States.

Furthermore, just look at "Critical Race Theory" in the US public system.


In the US, "Class" is meshed and melded with "Race". And, to the benefit of racial and ethnic minorities, it does produce some degree of Equality by battling racial, ethnic, and society Prejudice.

Americans are taught, in the Public Education system, to judge a person by the "content of their character" (Individuality) before their race/creed/color/gender, etc.


It seems a shared impression of anyone who has visited both europe and America that there is a great deal of respect and admiration leveled at the rich who are often referred to as "successful".
If you are rich in europe the first thought isn't necessarily that you are successful.. but that you are a villain who takes advantage of others to better their own lot.
In many parts of europe there is a great deal of social pressure against flaunting your class, and in fact one might say it's an uphill battle to retain social standing as you climb the class ladder.

I will grant you that from afar it does seems like that trend is diminishing in the US in more recent years, so perhaps this distinction is no longer as pronounced...
But what is preached from the pulpit and what is practiced in life are often not the same... and I wonder if perhaps only the sermons have changed.

Either way, it seems class is an undeniable factor in both cases... and colors most people's impression of you right out the gate.
Certainly in the US you have other factors that may or may not weigh as heavily... like race and religion... but I suspect classism is still heavily in the mix and I'd be shocked if it wasn't.
Last edited by Mad Man P on Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There are no stupid questions, just stupid people.
User avatar
Mad Man P
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2801
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:32 pm
Location: Denmark

Re: Jupiter and Saturn, European Paganism never Ended...

Postby Mad Man P » Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:33 pm

felix dakat wrote:Bono’s quip was to me an amusing stereotype of American and European sentiments. If you maintain it’s literally true, back it up with statistical evidence and I’ll concede the point. I don’t think you can. Prove me wrong.


Why?
If you think Bono's impression is wrong, present evidence or arguments to the contrary.
Your personal incredulity is not a problem I need to fix or even address... I'd sleep soundly at night even if you told me you don't believe water is wet.
There are no stupid questions, just stupid people.
User avatar
Mad Man P
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2801
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:32 pm
Location: Denmark

Re: Jupiter and Saturn, European Paganism never Ended...

Postby felix dakat » Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:48 pm

Mad Man P wrote:
felix dakat wrote:Bono’s quip was to me an amusing stereotype of American and European sentiments. If you maintain it’s literally true, back it up with statistical evidence and I’ll concede the point. I don’t think you can. Prove me wrong.


Why?
If you think Bono's impression is wrong, present evidence or arguments to the contrary.
Your personal incredulity is not a problem I need to fix or even address... I'd sleep soundly at night even if you told me you don't believe water is wet.


You’ve presented no evidence to show that Bono was right yet you ask me to present evidence to show he was wrong.
User avatar
felix dakat
Janitor
 
Posts: 10930
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:20 am
Location: USA

Re: Jupiter and Saturn, European Paganism never Ended...

Postby Mad Man P » Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:01 pm

felix dakat wrote:You’ve presented no evidence to show that Bono was right yet you ask me to present evidence to show he was wrong.


#-o

MMP wrote:Let's say I vacationed in China and came away with an impression of chinese culture, it's entirely anecdotal but at least it's evidenced by the experiences I had.
You then tell me that you assume I have the wrong impression of chinese culture... Which amounts to informing me that you prefer to believe I am wrong...
What is there to respond to other than to question the purpose of announcing it?
There are no stupid questions, just stupid people.
User avatar
Mad Man P
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2801
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:32 pm
Location: Denmark

Re: Jupiter and Saturn, European Paganism never Ended...

Postby felix dakat » Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:34 pm

Mad Man P wrote:
felix dakat wrote:You’ve presented no evidence to show that Bono was right yet you ask me to present evidence to show he was wrong.


#-o

MMP wrote:Let's say I vacationed in China and came away with an impression of chinese culture, it's entirely anecdotal but at least it's evidenced by the experiences I had.
You then tell me that you assume I have the wrong impression of chinese culture... Which amounts to informing me that you prefer to believe I am wrong...
What is there to respond to other than to question the purpose of announcing it?


Did you vacation in America?
User avatar
felix dakat
Janitor
 
Posts: 10930
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:20 am
Location: USA

Re: Jupiter and Saturn, European Paganism never Ended...

Postby Mad Man P » Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:41 pm

felix dakat wrote:Did you vacation in America?


Many times as I have both family and close personal friends there.
I'm sure Bono's spent more time in America than me, though...
There are no stupid questions, just stupid people.
User avatar
Mad Man P
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2801
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:32 pm
Location: Denmark

Re: Jupiter and Saturn, European Paganism never Ended...

Postby Sculptor » Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:42 pm

Paganism was never a thing in the first place.

Pagan refers to the people of the counryside who missed out on the growth of the largely urban \Christianity.
It was a placemarket for ANY religious affiliation outside Christianity,
The term is perjorative
Sculptor
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2246
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:52 pm

Re: Jupiter and Saturn, European Paganism never Ended...

Postby felix dakat » Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:44 pm

Mad Man P wrote:
felix dakat wrote:Did you vacation in America?


Many times as I have both family and close personal friends there.
I'm sure Bono's spent more time in America than me, though...


And your American friends and family want to live in mansions?
User avatar
felix dakat
Janitor
 
Posts: 10930
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:20 am
Location: USA

Re: Jupiter and Saturn, European Paganism never Ended...

Postby Mad Man P » Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:00 pm

felix dakat wrote:And your American friends and family want to live in mansions?


:lol:
There are no stupid questions, just stupid people.
User avatar
Mad Man P
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2801
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:32 pm
Location: Denmark

Re: Jupiter and Saturn, European Paganism never Ended...

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Sat Jan 29, 2022 10:06 am

Mad Man P wrote:It seems a shared impression of anyone who has visited both europe and America that there is a great deal of respect and admiration leveled at the rich who are often referred to as "successful".
If you are rich in europe the first thought isn't necessarily that you are successful.. but that you are a villain who takes advantage of others to better their own lot.
In many parts of europe there is a great deal of social pressure against flaunting your class, and in fact one might say it's an uphill battle to retain social standing as you climb the class ladder.

I will grant you that from afar it does seems like that trend is diminishing in the US in more recent years, so perhaps this distinction is no longer as pronounced...
But what is preached from the pulpit and what is practiced in life are often not the same... and I wonder if perhaps only the sermons have changed.

Either way, it seems class is an undeniable factor in both cases... and colors most people's impression of you right out the gate.
Certainly in the US you have other factors that may or may not weigh as heavily... like race and religion... but I suspect classism is still heavily in the mix and I'd be shocked if it wasn't.

There are always some small degrees of 'Class'. Dressing sharply versus dressing "comfortably" shifted in the United States from the 1950s to today. Look at old photographs and the previous generations look very dignified, slim, fit, and healthy, compared to today's standards. Does that not indicate a degradation of Class and Etiquette, lack of Grooming and self-awareness in public, a lack of dignity, etc...

But my greater point is that the Colonialist period of the United States, settling, colonizing, fighting and conquest, etc. those early Settlers could not rely on any degree of 'Aristocracy' to help them to survive, prosper, and thrive.


Colonial Americans and Settler families had to rely on their wits, their intellect, their cunning to survive the settling of the West.

This is why the Americas are essentially a place of Meritocracy rather than (European) Aristocracy. This is why Capitalism outpaces the French lassiez-faire economic model. Americans are seen as "hard working" compared to the "lazy" atmosphere of European socialism. Furthermore, European countries and peoples are built on thousands of years, centuries of Inheritance. Inheritance-societies are a factor of time.

As the United States grows older, stagnates, and repeats the previous eras of History as those who came before (New World versus the Old), then the West becomes rapidly domesticated, pacified, lazy, and socialistic. The West battles this encroaching "Socialism" and laziness even today.

Over time, Meritocracies become Aristocracies as larger and larger amounts of wealth are not made in new generations, but rather depended to be passed from the old and dieing generations.
Urwrongx1000
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7798
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: Jupiter and Saturn, European Paganism never Ended...

Postby Maia » Sat Jan 29, 2022 11:13 am

Urwrongx1000 wrote:
Mad Man P wrote:It seems a shared impression of anyone who has visited both europe and America that there is a great deal of respect and admiration leveled at the rich who are often referred to as "successful".
If you are rich in europe the first thought isn't necessarily that you are successful.. but that you are a villain who takes advantage of others to better their own lot.
In many parts of europe there is a great deal of social pressure against flaunting your class, and in fact one might say it's an uphill battle to retain social standing as you climb the class ladder.

I will grant you that from afar it does seems like that trend is diminishing in the US in more recent years, so perhaps this distinction is no longer as pronounced...
But what is preached from the pulpit and what is practiced in life are often not the same... and I wonder if perhaps only the sermons have changed.

Either way, it seems class is an undeniable factor in both cases... and colors most people's impression of you right out the gate.
Certainly in the US you have other factors that may or may not weigh as heavily... like race and religion... but I suspect classism is still heavily in the mix and I'd be shocked if it wasn't.

There are always some small degrees of 'Class'. Dressing sharply versus dressing "comfortably" shifted in the United States from the 1950s to today. Look at old photographs and the previous generations look very dignified, slim, fit, and healthy, compared to today's standards. Does that not indicate a degradation of Class and Etiquette, lack of Grooming and self-awareness in public, a lack of dignity, etc...

But my greater point is that the Colonialist period of the United States, settling, colonizing, fighting and conquest, etc. those early Settlers could not rely on any degree of 'Aristocracy' to help them to survive, prosper, and thrive.


Colonial Americans and Settler families had to rely on their wits, their intellect, their cunning to survive the settling of the West.

This is why the Americas are essentially a place of Meritocracy rather than (European) Aristocracy. This is why Capitalism outpaces the French lassiez-faire economic model. Americans are seen as "hard working" compared to the "lazy" atmosphere of European socialism. Furthermore, European countries and peoples are built on thousands of years, centuries of Inheritance. Inheritance-societies are a factor of time.

As the United States grows older, stagnates, and repeats the previous eras of History as those who came before (New World versus the Old), then the West becomes rapidly domesticated, pacified, lazy, and socialistic. The West battles this encroaching "Socialism" and laziness even today.

Over time, Meritocracies become Aristocracies as larger and larger amounts of wealth are not made in new generations, but rather depended to be passed from the old and dieing generations.


Just out of interest, have you ever been to Europe? Because I don't really recognise your description of it. Certainly not the UK, anyway, if you're including that in Europe.
User avatar
Maia
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3620
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:22 am
Location: UK

Re: Jupiter and Saturn, European Paganism never Ended...

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Sat Jan 29, 2022 11:38 am

No, but I've discussed the matter relentlessly when I studied Anthropology, on a forum in which mostly natural Europeans inhabited and discussed such issues along with genealogy and ethnic group origins.

Have you been to USA, yet? You're invited, of course.
Urwrongx1000
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7798
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: Jupiter and Saturn, European Paganism never Ended...

Postby Mad Man P » Sat Jan 29, 2022 11:41 am

Urwrongx1000 wrote:There are always some small degrees of 'Class'. Dressing sharply versus dressing "comfortably" shifted in the United States from the 1950s to today. Look at old photographs and the previous generations look very dignified, slim, fit, and healthy, compared to today's standards. Does that not indicate a degradation of Class and Etiquette, lack of Grooming and self-awareness in public, a lack of dignity, etc...


The shifting of fashion is not tantamount to the shifting of class... the fashion of the upper class is still quite distinct from the lower classes though both differ quite a bit from 100 years ago, I'd assume.

Colonial Americans and Settler families had to rely on their wits, their intellect, their cunning to survive the settling of the West.

This is why the Americas are essentially a place of Meritocracy rather than (European) Aristocracy. This is why Capitalism outpaces the French lassiez-faire economic model. Americans are seen as "hard working" compared to the "lazy" atmosphere of European socialism. Furthermore, European countries and peoples are built on thousands of years, centuries of Inheritance. Inheritance-societies are a factor of time.

As the United States grows older, stagnates, and repeats the previous eras of History as those who came before (New World versus the Old), then the West becomes rapidly domesticated, pacified, lazy, and socialistic. The West battles this encroaching "Socialism" and laziness even today.


European aristocracy consisted of a handful of people lazing about while everyone else labored tirelessly to provide for their luxurious lifestyle... those hard working peasants, miners and fishermen made up the overwhelming majority the population. They did their work without much hope of having the fruits of their labor improving their own lot in life, because they were effectively the employees of the local lord or lady. the land wasn't theirs the ocean wasn't theirs so the fruits of it wasn't theirs either. They either did the backbreaking work or they died... and not to harsh winters or a warring faction... but due to privation, as there was no "free" land for them to claim as their own to live off of. Which is why so many flocked to America in the first place. However harsh it was, it was preferable to the conditions back home.

Since the fall of monarchies in europe, where the fear of the aristocrat's whip has subsided... the discontent and resentment for the aristocrats has made it to the surface. It's been many generations since and yet that disposition has been passed down through culture and for generations. Europeans are by and large not PRO aristocracy... given what they suffered under their rule that would be a perverse condition.

You are right, however, in that work and successful amassing of wealth is not so central to a person's valuation in Europe... It's no less necessary for survival, but it's not considered sufficient for thriving. Taking time to cultivate family, friends and community is considered more healthy and wholesome... which if you're so inclined, you might describe as lazy.

Over time, Meritocracies become Aristocracies as larger and larger amounts of wealth are not made in new generations, but rather depended to be passed from the old and dieing generations.


This I agree with... One of the dangers of unmitigated capitalism, which is why there needs to be controls in place to prevent too much power being amassed in any institution, private or otherwise.
Last edited by Mad Man P on Sat Jan 29, 2022 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
There are no stupid questions, just stupid people.
User avatar
Mad Man P
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2801
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:32 pm
Location: Denmark

PreviousNext

Return to Religion and Spirituality



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users