Is the West in Decline?

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Re: Is the West in Decline?

Postby felix dakat » Wed Oct 27, 2021 12:11 am

Mad Man P wrote:
felix dakat wrote:In effect modernity killed theology and philosophy leaving us with only knowledge. Modern science killed wisdom.

Cosmic meaning is accepted only in the subjective realm of fantasy or personal religious belief. Welcome to the meaning crisis.


There is wisdom in seeking meaning from within while remaining uncertain of the cosmic.
The delphic maxims, written on the temple of apollo were:
know thyself
nothing to excess
certainty brings insanity


You read Plato. God and the gods were very near to people then and even sometimes possessed them. Now God has been banished from the scientific cosmology. So yeah the sublime chaos of madness may be as close to the Divine as you can get today.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Is the West in Decline?

Postby Great Again » Wed Oct 27, 2021 12:22 am

felix dakat wrote:The modern outlook separates faith from reason in the effort to separate scientific knowledge from theology and philosophy. Modernity is a result of the uncoupling of knowledge and wisdom in order to give theoretical knowledge of nature that is independent of religious authority and philosophically neutral. The aim is at achieving an objective relation to facts with no essential relationship to theological or philosophical meanings and no deference to interpretive authorities.

A downside of this is that reality and nature are presupposed to have no objective meaning. And if we are part of nature then we are ourselves and our language and our knowledge have no objective meaning.

In effect modernity killed theology and philosophy leaving us with only knowledge. Modern science killed wisdom.

Science has become dependent on technology (application and benefit) and on politics and economics (money and benefit). Science only receives money for its research if it serves the interests of technology, business and politics.

It is all modernity that kills wisdom. Modernity is only interested in money, which serves power, and utility, which serves money and thus power, and applications, which serve utility as well as money and thus power.

The biggest problem of our modernity is the technocreditism (not to be confused with "technocratism", although this is included in technocredtism).
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Re: Is the West in Decline?

Postby felix dakat » Wed Oct 27, 2021 4:22 am

Great Again-- since it is from you that I first learned of technocreditism; please be kind enough to explain what it is from your point of view.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Is the West in Decline?

Postby Great Again » Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:49 pm

felix dakat wrote:Great Again-- since it is from you that I first learned of technocreditism; please be kind enough to explain what it is from your point of view.

The alliance of the two self-reinforcing systems of credit-based interest-driven economy and innovation-driven mechanical engineering resulted in the most powerful complex of half-blindly forward-looking tendencies to date, which are still grouped together under the clumsy term "capitalism", although if it had been a matter of a true name, it should have been called techno-creditism from the start.

This "start" is to be identified with the beginning of Occidental culture, or at the latest with the beginning of the modernity of Occidental culture.

This development and its effects are so unique and so extreme that they have upset the whole world. But first they have upset the Occidental people themselves, put technology (including science) above everything, which has not escaped the economy, so that it has also been catapulted upwards.

On the one hand, we have gladly let ourselves become dependent on luxury, but on the other hand, we have not wanted to see the economic, especially the financial dependence, which can no longer be separated from what we call technical "progress". Once money is involved, there is no turning back. The Occident is in debt, both financially/economically and demographically. It is becoming more and more dependent, and its decision-makers think they can solve the problems with even bigger problems.

The Occidental downfall has its reasons in almost every Occidental person as well, but the effects of this techno-creditism clearly show us how much the dependence on money and thus on power is also a made and consciously controlled dependence.
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Re: Is the West in Decline?

Postby Bob » Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:50 am

Great Again wrote:The Occident is in debt, both financially/economically and demographically. It is becoming more and more dependent, and its decision-makers think they can solve the problems with even bigger problems.

The Occidental downfall has its reasons in almost every Occidental person as well, but the effects of this techno-creditism clearly show us how much the dependence on money and thus on power is also a made and consciously controlled dependence.

The debt, I believe is owed the future generation, who will have to cope with the depletion of resources in such a record time, with nothing to show except refuse and scrap, plastic in the oceans, and poison in freshwater.
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Re: Is the West in Decline?

Postby obsrvr524 » Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:58 am

Bob wrote:the depletion of resources in such a record time, with nothing to show except refuse and scrap, plastic in the oceans, and poison in freshwater.

The least of their worries.
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    • - until they beg you to take charge.
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Re: Is the West in Decline?

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:20 am

The plastic in the ocean is 90% Chinese fishing nets.

But whatever feeds your fantasy.
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Re: Is the West in Decline?

Postby Bob » Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:22 am

Pedro I Rengel wrote:The plastic in the ocean is 90% Chinese fishing nets.

But whatever feeds your fantasy.

https://www.ecoredux.com/plastic-pollution-in-ocean#:~:text=%2015%20Facts%20You%20Need%20to%20Know%20About,to%20setting%20five%20garbage%20bags%20full...%20More%20

Not so much fantasy ...
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Re: Is the West in Decline?

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:34 am

How about we choose a source that isn't a blog post written by some dude who gets paid $0.01 per word.

https://hillnotes.ca/2020/01/30/ghost-f ... pollution/
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Re: Is the West in Decline?

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:37 am

Considering China basically makes all of the world's fishing nets, when placed relative to the fishing net production of any other group of nations combined, 90% of the plastic in the ocean is Chinese fishing nets.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fishing_industry_in_China

The oceans there are so depleted, because of fishing nets, that people now eat jellyfish. I assure you, they don't recycle them (one would assume, given your doomsday fetish, you would anyways be concerned with the amount of waste produced by recycling).

But I didn't mean to interrupt your self-flagellating fantasies, what the world needs is people drinking less bottled water.

Sorry, my bad, what the world needs is governments forcing people to drink less bottled water. I'm so clumsy sometimes.
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Re: Is the West in Decline?

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:52 am

The focus on "science" is relatively new, though not as new as most people believe, but the obsession with the world being destroyed within the next few decades as a result of the sins of man is an old one.

When you control for variables, is it likely that this obsession is caused by scientific discoveries, or that it is a continuation of the old fantasy by new means?
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Re: Is the West in Decline?

Postby Bob » Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:06 am

Pedro I Rengel wrote:The plastic in the ocean is 90% Chinese fishing nets.

But whatever feeds your fantasy.

Ghost fishing gear is estimated to make up 46% to 70% of all macroplastic marine debris by weight.

Your source ...

Besides, who cares, it is plastic.
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Re: Is the West in Decline?

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:22 am

Lol.
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Re: Is the West in Decline?

Postby Sculptor » Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:21 am

Pedro I Rengel wrote:The plastic in the ocean is 90% Chinese fishing nets.

But whatever feeds your fantasy.


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Re: Is the West in Decline?

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:43 pm

I'm sorry, are you trying to form a sentence there little buddy?
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Re: Is the West in Decline?

Postby Bob » Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:53 pm

The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
TS Eliot
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Re: Is the West in Decline?

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:31 pm

Bob wrote:Beware:
[url][/url]
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Re: Is the West in Decline?

Postby felix dakat » Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:34 am

Are the After Skool people trying to educate us away from totalitarianism? If so, is education an effective antidote?
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: Is the West in Decline?

Postby Bob » Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:44 am

felix dakat wrote:Are the After Skool people trying to educate us away from totalitarianism? If so, is education an effective antidote?

I think that education is an effective antidote, if we can get people to listen and watch. After Skool does a good job of helping people to do that. The range of videos they have made is impressive.
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
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Re: Is the West in Decline?

Postby Mad Man P » Thu Nov 04, 2021 2:26 pm

There are no stupid questions, just stupid people.
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Re: Is the West in Decline?

Postby felix dakat » Thu Nov 04, 2021 3:22 pm

Thank you. I've watched it. Tell us what you think Mad Man. These are all guys I've spent some time studying.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: Is the West in Decline?

Postby Bob » Thu Nov 04, 2021 4:12 pm

Mad Man P wrote:

I think that Jonathan Haidt is making a case for the decline, and it is a process that is incredibly stupid because things have been getting better. But the fact that factionalism is going on, we are risking the benefits of improvements. We are lacking the ability to find truth and losing the ability to stand together to solve problems.
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
TS Eliot
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Re: Is the West in Decline?

Postby Mad Man P » Thu Nov 04, 2021 4:14 pm

felix dakat wrote:Thank you. I've watched it. Tell us what you think Mad Man. These are all guys I've spent some time studying.


I've already expressed what I think for the past two pages... many, if not all of my points, were repeated in this discussion.
I thought perhaps if the source were different the points might land or at least be heard and responded to.
There are no stupid questions, just stupid people.
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Re: Is the West in Decline?

Postby felix dakat » Thu Nov 04, 2021 4:26 pm

Curiously, whatever their differences are, all three have roots in the study of evolutionary psychology and all three find themselves in the middle of that ever narrowing road where constructive dialogue is still possible.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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