Question For Athiests

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Re: Question For Athiests

Postby Sculptor » Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:28 pm

Shepherdess wrote:Sculptor

But if you were smart, you might want to prepare yourself just in case and learn how to spend time with those religious nut cases comfortably. We cannot know whether our likes or dislikes or fears influence our consciousness after death (if it does survive that is). Perhaps death is like our dreams which are influenced by and come from the material within our lives.

No being smart is knowing that death is an end, and living your life accordingly - and not waste your life playing Pascal's Wager.


As for the first paragraph I was more or less teasing there. I think that the word "karma" came to me. But there may be some truth within that
Well, our immediate death is an end but who can really know if it is the end to end all ends? How can we possibly know this as fact?

It's called evidence.
We cannot know for a fact that there is not a teapot orbiting Pluto. But since there is not a shred of evidence to support such a claim then I'm not going to spend any effort building a spaceship. I'll just pop down the road and buy one downtown if I want one.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. - Hamlet (1.5.167-8), Hamlet to Horatio

Opinion in a fiction with a ghost. Not exacly reliable is it?
Do you think that all agnostics stand on Pascal's Wager? Personally, I do not believe something or disbelieve it because it may be true or not. I'm skeptical.

No only a foll plays Pascal's wager, because if there is a god, who is to know which one to follow in any case. Just live your life as authetically as possible with no care for an uncertain future state.
If god does not like that then ytou have to ask why he created me that way.
The best way to play the wager is not to play it at all.


I prefer the thoughts of Albert Camus “For who would dare to assert that eternal happiness can compensate for a single moment’s human suffering.”


But might it not depend on what that single moment's human suffering was for or about? As for eternal happiness, what is that?! Have philosophers even defined what happiness is as of yet?

Not really.


Religious people, it is said, are scared of death. But more likely they are scared of life.


Can we really make such a blanket statement? I think that it would depend on the "individual" him/her-self.

"we" are not making it. I am making it and am prepared to defend it.
Some religious people are afraid of death/to die so they are good - they want that so-called eternal life with God. Some I would say love their God purely for the sake of loving of God and neighbor.
I can agree with you though. So many are afraid of living. Perhaps they feel that they do not deserve a good life. Perhaps they need to learn, to let go and to soar.

Soar?? Seriously I do not see the need to duck for all the soaring religious people. In fact all the religious people seem to be carrying a ball and chain.

When you know that death is final it is the greatest liberations and makes life all the more interesting, and your living of it fearless.

We cannot know that death is final but we can know that we will someday die so we "clamber through the clouds and exist".
What is that song something like "If that's all there is...." da de de de de :evilfun:

Er nope never heard that one.
It may have more to do with our own minds and brain chemistry. The cup is either full, half full or empty or perhaps not even there for them.


Whatever the level of the cup, a cup is for drinking, so drink and be merry for tomorow we die.
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Re: Question For Athiests

Postby Shepherdess » Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:09 pm

Sculptor


Well, our immediate death is an end but who can really know if it is the end to end all ends? How can we possibly know this as fact?

It's called evidence.


What evidence? I thought that one could not prove a negative. Can you point me to the evidence of there not being consciousness after death? Have the philosophers, neuro-scientists, et cetera proven that?


We cannot know for a fact that there is not a teapot orbiting Pluto. But since there is not a shred of evidence to support such a claim then I'm not going to spend any effort building a spaceship. I'll just pop down the road and buy one downtown if I want one.


lol You're funny. I may be wrong here but something tells me that I may think more like you than you think.

Opinion in a fiction with a ghost. Not exacly reliable is it?


Yes, I understand that opinion is not fact; just one's own way of looking at something.
Why did you use the word "ghost" here though?

No only a foll plays Pascal's wager, because if there is a god, who is to know which one to follow in any case
.

Well, how many gods can there be? If there be one, how can it be other than just the creator god? I think the problem is with the word "God/god in the first place.

Just live your life as authetically as possible with no care for an uncertain future state.

We are human beings. Do you really think that that is such an easy thing for many?
But I may be wrong here. Perhaps it might be if we work hard at it, focus on it, just live in the moment...perhaps almost like a "sculptor" would. Mold and shape and chip away what is not necessary - only keep what creates the most authentic form one is going for. Your username, sculptor, literal or figurative?

If god does not like that then ytou have to ask why he created me that way.

Questioning is really important. Agnostic or not, I still question God though I realize I may be talking to myself.

The best way to play the wager is not to play it at all.

I'm not a gambler, well not when it comes to religious gambles.

I prefer the thoughts of Albert Camus “For who would dare to assert that eternal happiness can compensate for a single moment’s human suffering.”

But might it not depend on what that single moment's human suffering was for or about? As for eternal happiness, what is that?! Have philosophers even defined what happiness is as of yet?

Not really.


What does "not really" refer to - the last sentence?


Religious people, it is said, are scared of death. But more likely they are scared of life.

Can we really make such a blanket statement? I think that it would depend on the "individual" him/her-self.

"we" are not making it. I am making it and am prepared to defend it.

Do you see the "individual" or do you really believe that all religious people are alike - think and feel the same way? Show me where you can prove it?


Perhaps they need to learn, to let go and to soar.

Soar?? Seriously I do not see the need to duck for all the soaring religious people. In fact all the religious people seem to be carrying a ball and chain.


That made me laugh. I can see you trying to swat them on their way up. I was not so much speaking of religious people here soaring but really about laying down one's shackles, whatever they are, and soaring...just feeling free and unencumbered. :angelic-blueglow:


Whatever the level of the cup, a cup is for drinking, so drink and be merry for tomorow we die.

Could you also just gaze at it and ponder it or meditate on it depending on how much is in that cup?
"It is by going down into the abyss that we recover the treasures of life. Where you stumble, there lies your treasure."
Joseph Campbell

"In the woods, we return to reason and faith. There I feel nothing can befall me in life, - no disgrace, no calamity, (leaving me my eyes,) which nature cannot repair. Standing on the bare ground, - my head bathed by the blithe air, and uplifted into infinite space, - all mean egotism vanishes. I become a transparent eye-ball; I am nothing; I see all; the currents of the Universal Being circulate through me; I am part or particle of God."
Ralph Waldo Emerson

"No way of thinking or doing, however ancient, can be trusted without proof. What everybody echoes or in silence passes by as true today may turn out to be falsehood tomorrow, mere smoke of opinion, which some had trusted for a cloud that would sprinkle fertilizing rain on their fields."
Thoreau
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Re: Question For Athiests

Postby Sculptor » Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:28 pm

Shepherdess wrote:Sculptor


Well, our immediate death is an end but who can really know if it is the end to end all ends? How can we possibly know this as fact?

It's called evidence.


What evidence? I thought that one could not prove a negative. Can you point me to the evidence of there not being consciousness after death? Have the philosophers, neuro-scientists, et cetera proven that?

A corpse and rotting flesh is not negative evidence.
Nor is the loss of the mind associated with injuries to the brain, Alzheimers and many other diseases which demonstrate the indelible association between the peronality/self/mind/conssiousness and the working of a healthy brain.


We cannot know for a fact that there is not a teapot orbiting Pluto. But since there is not a shred of evidence to support such a claim then I'm not going to spend any effort building a spaceship. I'll just pop down the road and buy one downtown if I want one.


lol You're funny. I may be wrong here but something tells me that I may think more like you than you think.

:wink:


Opinion in a fiction with a ghost. Not exacly reliable is it?


Yes, I understand that opinion is not fact; just one's own way of looking at something.
Why did you use the word "ghost" here though?

DId you not quote Hamlet?
Have you ever seen the play? Maybe you did not know the derivation?

No only a fool plays Pascal's wager, because if there is a god, who is to know which one to follow in any case
.

Well, how many gods can there be? If there be one, how can it be other than just the creator god? I think the problem is with the word "God/god in the first place.

How many gods?
My guess is ZERO.
But there are plenty of contenders, and for each one, an almost infinite set of behaviours you are suppose to follow to get your reward.

Just live your life as authetically as possible with no care for an uncertain future state.

We are human beings. Do you really think that that is such an easy thing for many?

I'm not a priest so have no say in what others do.
But I may be wrong here. Perhaps it might be if we work hard at it, focus on it, just live in the moment...perhaps almost like a "sculptor" would. Mold and shape and chip away what is not necessary - only keep what creates the most authentic form one is going for. Your username, sculptor, literal or figurative?

Mostly figurative, though I delve into the dark art of abstration sometimes. Most work from clay.
Apparently this activity is completely anathema to the Muslim God for which I am likely to be damnned.
The Christian version not so much.

If god does not like that then ytou have to ask why he created me that way.

Questioning is really important. Agnostic or not, I still question God though I realize I may be talking to myself.

THere is hope for you yet
The best way to play the wager is not to play it at all.

I'm not a gambler, well not when it comes to religious gambles.

I prefer the thoughts of Albert Camus “For who would dare to assert that eternal happiness can compensate for a single moment’s human suffering.”

But might it not depend on what that single moment's human suffering was for or about? As for eternal happiness, what is that?! Have philosophers even defined what happiness is as of yet?

Not really.


What does "not really" refer to - the last sentence?


Religious people, it is said, are scared of death. But more likely they are scared of life.

Can we really make such a blanket statement? I think that it would depend on the "individual" him/her-self.

"we" are not making it. I am making it and am prepared to defend it.

Do you see the "individual" or do you really believe that all religious people are alike - think and feel the same way? Show me where you can prove it?


Perhaps they need to learn, to let go and to soar.

Soar?? Seriously I do not see the need to duck for all the soaring religious people. In fact all the religious people seem to be carrying a ball and chain.


That made me laugh. I can see you trying to swat them on their way up. I was not so much speaking of religious people here soaring but really about laying down one's shackles, whatever they are, and soaring...just feeling free and unencumbered. :angelic-blueglow:

I do not think they are on their way up, but have no interest in swapping them. They are free to waste their lives. Trouble is that they can get in may way, and try to impose their fake morality on others. We are lucky enough to live in a time and plae where they are mostly having to take a back seat. But we have to keep defeinding the freedoms that have taken thousands of years to achive in the face of religious bigotry which is always just around the corner.


Whatever the level of the cup, a cup is for drinking, so drink and be merry for tomorow we die.

Could you also just gaze at it and ponder it or meditate on it depending on how much is in that cup?


Often.
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Re: Question For Athiests

Postby Sculptor » Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:32 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:
Keep doing your blind faith arguments and see where that goes

Remember you are the one who believes in the afterlife not me


A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN??

Really??
Not sure the analogy is very good since you have to throw yourself out of a plane before its anything more than a useless burden.
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Re: Question For Athiests

Postby phenomenal_graffiti » Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:32 am

A corpse and rotting flesh is not negative evidence.
Nor is the loss of the mind associated with injuries to the brain, Alzheimers and many other diseases which demonstrate the indelible association between the peronality/self/mind/conssiousness and the working of a healthy brain.


The brain itself is also made up of consciousness. It cannot be made up of something that is not consciousness as, well, that wouldn't make sense. Thus the brain cannot logically create consciousness: it is a consciousness-composed analog.
Q: What lies beyond the "Matrix" that is consciousness?

A: The conscious and unconscious mind of God.


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Re: Question For Athiests

Postby Sculptor » Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:26 am

phenomenal_graffiti wrote:
A corpse and rotting flesh is not negative evidence.
Nor is the loss of the mind associated with injuries to the brain, Alzheimers and many other diseases which demonstrate the indelible association between the peronality/self/mind/conssiousness and the working of a healthy brain.


The brain itself is also made up of consciousness. It cannot be made up of something that is not consciousness as, well, that wouldn't make sense. Thus the brain cannot logically create consciousness: it is a consciousness-composed analog.


This statement does not work.
Since it is obvious that the brain is literally composed of neural matter: meat. The statment that it cannot be composed of something NOT consciousness is false.
The brain and consciousness are not the same thing. In the same way a car and its journey are not the same thing. or a pair of legs and running are not the same thing.
Consciousness/mind/thinking/personality are what the brain DOES. Conditions for this activity include agood supply of nutrients especially water, glucose and oxygen and many other essential things supplied by the blood.
When supplies of these things are limited the result is a loss of fucntion which is the same as loss of self, memory, and bodily control etc.
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