Brave Christian Worship

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Re: Brave Christian Worship

Postby felix dakat » Mon May 17, 2021 11:23 pm

Fixed Cross--perhaps your personal encounter with professing Christianity was too negative for you to ever see what I see. There are people within my circle of family and friends for whom that's true and who consequently don't see what I see. In fact, most of them don't. Maybe none of them do. So I'm not surprised. I don't try to persuade them of my vision. I love them as they are.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: Brave Christian Worship

Postby Ecmandu » Mon May 17, 2021 11:53 pm

I’m the mote of dust in Jesus’ eye.

Christianity is actually an offshoot of Hinduism (the Vedas). Gandhi said it himself after reading the Bible, “why change religions when everything in the Bible is already in the vedas?”

You people think I’m insane. That’s fine.

My ‘satanist’ side is actually a great defender by accusing god.

It helps people out a lot more than Hinduism or Judaism or Christianity or Islam or Buddhism or Sikhism combined.

I will say this and you need to understand it:

You are completely innocent if you are ignorant.

This bears repeating:

Sin is consent violation. That’s all it is. Some are worse than others. It must be understood that every being in one way or another is having their consent violated. That means that existence itself is sin.

That’s a big load off your shoulders folks.

How do you live a ‘good’ life?

You give existence the middle finger and violate consent as little as possible.

Life viewings are a real thing. You will be judged.

Where does the buck stop?

With people like me. People who say “ha! Blasphemy? Fucking, they can’t even tie their moral shoe laces, give them a break”

Blasphemy is only a concept starting with Judaism. That’s where it came from. The one sin that lasts forever. You know what a guy like me did?

I came along and said, actually, karma is just a reputation system... you don’t have to have that loaded Jewish gun held to your head every second.

That’s my grace to you.
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Re: Brave Christian Worship

Postby Fixed Cross » Tue May 18, 2021 1:31 am

felix dakat wrote:Fixed Cross--perhaps your personal encounter with professing Christianity was too negative for you to ever see what I see. There are people within my circle of family and friends for whom that's true and who consequently don't see what I see. In fact, most of them don't. Maybe none of them do. So I'm not surprised. I don't try to persuade them of my vision. I love them as they are.

I respect you without reservations as I know you to be a very devout man in an intellectual integrity, and you dont shun debate nor waver from your trajectory. You could be a happy pagan but you choose to be a christian, and you are able to manifest your virtue in its terms.

My own heart is complex in that it is Russian Hebrew as well as Frisian (the proper Germanic tribe here) so I have a completely saturated genetics in terms of adoration, I can not find an integrity other than in these elements Ive been given; the pagan north and the rabbinical alchemists. Christianity to me, and Ive really engaged it very openly very often, gives me impulses which interfere with my virtues, lower them to a general standard, It is my kryptonite. Ive found this out the hard way and more often than is really sensible.

The problem is that there is a great decency in Christian life as a general rule. There is much to appreciate about the Christian world, obviously - but is it not more the classicist nature in which the gospels basically form a certain kind of axle? Does the christ really represent the story that it represents or is it a mask for an asceticism that is older and has more to do with perhaps Eleusis and Apollo than with Gethsemane?

Suggestions.
A good friend of mine takes christianity as an initiation pattern of I believe seven steps; the footwashing, the crown of thorns, etc -
yes I respect that too but I dont need protocol for sanctification. I think that itself is a form of blasphemy, precluding true sanctity - to prescribe rituals in general. It is often good, but nonetheless it can not aspire directly to the source of being; it can evoke great powers but it cannot itself be the Creator.


Now because I find this so remarkably to be true, so unavoidably real, I am drawn to authors such as Nietzsche and also Crowley, people who have knowledge about ancient worship and ideas about future worship. But more than that I find in my own sanctity a war with the cold christian fever, those eerie solemn caverns of remembrance of an awful fact and an incomprehensible instance, a memory of a split psyche that rules the world by giving itself away to it, the sheer audacity of taking this memory as the temple of power speaks to the poetic sense of the west, but it has been played out on a grand scale now and its mists are... well, no longer as intoxicating as they used to be and what remains is simply a tribe of culturally true people who refuse to let go of their quite strong tradition in the face of a world which certainly offers no reasons to surrender to other causes.

I am me, and I dont speak to christians when I speak of gods, I know the storm as my truest love ever since I can remember.
The strong act as they may, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: Brave Christian Worship

Postby felix dakat » Tue May 18, 2021 2:16 am

Ecmandu wrote:I’m the mote of dust in Jesus’ eye.

Christianity is actually an offshoot of Hinduism (the Vedas). Gandhi said it himself after reading the Bible, “why change religions when everything in the Bible is already in the vedas?”

You people think I’m insane. That’s fine.

My ‘satanist’ side is actually a great defender by accusing god.

It helps people out a lot more than Hinduism or Judaism or Christianity or Islam or Buddhism or Sikhism combined.

I will say this and you need to understand it:

You are completely innocent if you are ignorant.

This bears repeating:

Sin is consent violation. That’s all it is. Some are worse than others. It must be understood that every being in one way or another is having their consent violated. That means that existence itself is sin.

That’s a big load off your shoulders folks.

How do you live a ‘good’ life?

You give existence the middle finger and violate consent as little as possible.

Life viewings are a real thing. You will be judged.

Where does the buck stop?

With people like me. People who say “ha! Blasphemy? Fucking, they can’t even tie their moral shoe laces, give them a break”

Blasphemy is only a concept starting with Judaism. That’s where it came from. The one sin that lasts forever. You know what a guy like me did?

I came along and said, actually, karma is just a reputation system... you don’t have to have that loaded Jewish gun held to your head every second.

That’s my grace to you.


I like that you quoted Harry Truman.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: Brave Christian Worship

Postby felix dakat » Tue May 18, 2021 2:30 am

Fixed Cross wrote:
felix dakat wrote:Fixed Cross--perhaps your personal encounter with professing Christianity was too negative for you to ever see what I see. There are people within my circle of family and friends for whom that's true and who consequently don't see what I see. In fact, most of them don't. Maybe none of them do. So I'm not surprised. I don't try to persuade them of my vision. I love them as they are.

I respect you without reservations as I know you to be a very devout man in an intellectual integrity, and you dont shun debate nor waver from your trajectory. You could be a happy pagan but you choose to be a christian, and you are able to manifest your virtue in its terms.

My own heart is complex in that it is Russian Hebrew as well as Frisian (the proper Germanic tribe here) so I have a completely saturated genetics in terms of adoration, I can not find an integrity other than in these elements Ive been given; the pagan north and the rabbinical alchemists. Christianity to me, and Ive really engaged it very openly very often, gives me impulses which interfere with my virtues, lower them to a general standard, It is my kryptonite. Ive found this out the hard way and more often than is really sensible.

The problem is that there is a great decency in Christian life as a general rule. There is much to appreciate about the Christian world, obviously - but is it not more the classicist nature in which the gospels basically form a certain kind of axle? Does the christ really represent the story that it represents or is it a mask for an asceticism that is older and has more to do with perhaps Eleusis and Apollo than with Gethsemane?

Suggestions.
A good friend of mine takes christianity as an initiation pattern of I believe seven steps; the footwashing, the crown of thorns, etc -
yes I respect that too but I dont need protocol for sanctification. I think that itself is a form of blasphemy, precluding true sanctity - to prescribe rituals in general. It is often good, but nonetheless it can not aspire directly to the source of being; it can evoke great powers but it cannot itself be the Creator.


Now because I find this so remarkably to be true, so unavoidably real, I am drawn to authors such as Nietzsche and also Crowley, people who have knowledge about ancient worship and ideas about future worship. But more than that I find in my own sanctity a war with the cold christian fever, those eerie solemn caverns of remembrance of an awful fact and an incomprehensible instance, a memory of a split psyche that rules the world by giving itself away to it, the sheer audacity of taking this memory as the temple of power speaks to the poetic sense of the west, but it has been played out on a grand scale now and its mists are... well, no longer as intoxicating as they used to be and what remains is simply a tribe of culturally true people who refuse to let go of their quite strong tradition in the face of a world which certainly offers no reasons to surrender to other causes.

I am me, and I dont speak to christians when I speak of gods, I know the storm as my truest love ever since I can remember.


Much of what you say makes perfect sense to me. That which doesn't, I'm trying to understand. I learned from a Buddhist that understanding is the way to peace. Gadamer says we all are standing in our prejudices. Where else could we be standing? Our prejudices are the judgments that have gotten us where we are in the present moment.The way forward, the way to peace, is openness to receive new light. The logos is the light that enlightens everyone in so far as they have light. And what is that light? Consciousness. That's in the Prologue to the Gospel of John. And it runs through the perennial wisdom of the West which parallels that of the East. I don't have to make this stuff up because it's there. More people don't see it because apparently their attention is focused elsewhere.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: Brave Christian Worship

Postby Bob » Tue May 18, 2021 7:00 am

Ecmandu wrote:And who the fuck am I? The teacher of all of you.

No you are not!
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
TS Eliot
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Re: Brave Christian Worship

Postby Bob » Tue May 18, 2021 9:34 am

Fixed Cross wrote:I appreciate the scholarship on this. It's clear that you're the most serious in building an argument here. Though Felix has something to offer he is, Im afraid, entirely tied by his wish that Christianity could be absolved of all its perversities. which it cannot. Just like nazism cant be 'reinvented' and suddenly be decent, Christianity cant just all of a sudden be something separate from what it has done to people - thats just what it is, its legacy, and forever will be. It has all the cruelty and of the Roman empire but added to that, a belief in itself as being innocent. So it is the most dangerously violent religion earth has seen. At the very least Islam, which is almost equally violent, doesnt quite have that pretense of being innocent, it knows itself as descendent of a warlord and respects itself as such.

I appreciate your praise, although it is not scholarship, just keeping oneself informed. I generally check up on the facts I write before (or after) I write them, but before I post them. When I haven’t, it has been embarrassing.

Your comparison of Christianity with Nazism and Islam ignore the fact that the teaching if Christianity is different to its implementation, which is where the problem lies. It also overlooks the fact that all religions have scriptures that are antiquated to some degree, but the Gospels are also morally challenging, which is probably the biggest reason for the failure to implement its teaching into everyday life. Felix is right in his appraisal of the situation from a theological perspective, its history lets Christianity down, however.

Fixed Cross wrote:It is due to Islam that knowledge of the Greeks has survived. Through Alexander, those writings were exported, gratefully kept and built on in Asia, and after the worst of Christianity was over in Europe, Islamic scholars came to Venice and such cities to share the old classical treasures.

That said, I think the age of spinoffs of Judaeism is sort of spent. I dont see great things coming for the two big monotheistic faiths. I just see that the Jewish god has delivered on his promise, and the others have not.

It wasn’t just Islam that helped Greek culture to survive, otherwise it wouldn’t have played such a role in Christian education. Asia had its own traditions, so a comparison may have taken place, but it was by no means dependent upon transmission of Greek culture. In fact, it may just have been the other way around at an earlier stage, or both had a common source.

I was yesterday listening to a discussion of Alan Watts’ book, The Book on the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are, and decided to open it, since I have quite a number of his books. This is what he had to say:
The standard-brand religions, whether Jewish, Christian, Mohammedan, Hindu, or Buddhist, are—as now practiced—like exhausted mines: very hard to dig. With some exceptions not too easily found, their ideas about man and the world, their imagery, their rites, and their notions of the good life don’t seem to fit in with the universe as we now know it, or with a human world that is changing so rapidly that much of what one learns in school is already obsolete on graduation day.
Watts, Alan. The Book on the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are (S.5). Profile. Kindle-Version.

At the same time, Watts saw a need for a transmission of some kind from one generation to the next, but saw it as having a different form.

… The Book that I would like to slip to my children would itself be slippery. It would slip them into a new domain, not of ideas alone, but of experience and feeling. It would be a temporary medicine, not a diet; a point of departure, not a perpetual point of reference. They would read it and be done with it, for if it were well and clearly written they would not have to go back to it again and again for hidden meanings or for clarification of obscure doctrines.
Watts, Alan. The Book on the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are (S.11-12). Profile. Kindle-Version.

Of course, his books have had that effect on people like me, but they haven’t been quite as effective on others. In GB I believe that Alan Watts is hardly known, especially not by the people on the street. In other countries I have to explain to people about who he is. His biggest following is in the USA or on YouTube.

This makes my point that I mentioned earlier in the thread: Alternatives to Christianity in the West just don’t do the job they want to. People are intellectually lazy, and they need to form habits and rituals to keep them at whatever good they have discovered.
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
TS Eliot
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Re: Brave Christian Worship

Postby felix dakat » Tue May 18, 2021 12:52 pm

Sean D. Kelley says that Heidegger's intention when writing Being and Time was to write the fundamental ontology. But he never finished the book because he came to realize that it cannot be written because the mode of being is different in every epoch.

The difference between epochs as modes of being is clearly illustrated by the Christian Bible. The Old and the New Testaments are two different epochs. The books of the latter Prophets in the Old Testament represent a transitional stage between the two.

To live in a different epoch is to live in a different world. It's a different cosmology. It is as if one lives in a different universe.

The modern age took us out of the West's Christian epoch and now we are transitioning out of modernity. To read the works of a different epoch and not see the difference is to misunderstand the writer's world. I find this is true even when reading works from the 20th century. Even Martin Heidegger's Being and Time could be subtitled "in the modern age".

The strident militantism of American Evangelicals gets its character from it's hostility in reaction to an epoch hostile to it. With the election of President Donald Trump, con man and pathological liar, the majority of American evangelicals passed from mass neurosis to mass psychosis wherein they must sever touch with reality in order to maintain their world.

I find it ironic when Jordan Peterson inveighs against postmodernism because that's the ocean he's swimming in and without it he wouldn't have relevance or an audience. I see him as a psychological apologist for the perennial philosophy as an alternative mode of being.

Anyway Christianity's original symbol was the fish which swam in the waters of a world that was not its own. Insofar is it survives and thrives, Christians must learn to do that again. Perhaps it will rediscover the spirit of its prototype, Jesus the Messiah in the process. The world the church created was as alien to Christ as the one that crucified him. Dostoevsky clearly made this point in Brothers Karamazov in the parable in which Jesus comes before the Grand Inquisitor who tells him the church no longer needs him an instructs him never to return
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Brave Christian Worship

Postby Fixed Cross » Tue May 18, 2021 2:36 pm

felix dakat wrote:Much of what you say makes perfect sense to me. That which doesn't, I'm trying to understand. I learned from a Buddhist that understanding is the way to peace. Gadamer says we all are standing in our prejudices. Where else could we be standing? Our prejudices are the judgments that have gotten us where we are in the present moment.The way forward, the way to peace, is openness to receive new light. The logos is the light that enlightens everyone in so far as they have light. And what is that light? Consciousness. That's in the Prologue to the Gospel of John. And it runs through the perennial wisdom of the West which parallels that of the East. I don't have to make this stuff up because it's there. More people don't see it because apparently their attention is focused elsewhere.

Ok we've got two interesting concepts here, hard ontological concepts; light and prejudice.

Prejudice has been slandered, but as you say, what else do we strand on? Instinct is a prejudice, so is faith. Taste is largely prejudicial, as is foresight -
we are indeed a result of a long tradition of value-selections, which are pre-judgments. Heidegger's lectures on Nietzsche deal with this ultra-extensively, highly recommended. Having read much of and understood I think all of Heidegger in 2008, I completed Heideggers work with my discovering of the 'logical grammar' of valuing as the primary ontological form in 2011. This ontology does not change in different epochs. I moved beyond Heidegger and back to Nietzsche in demonstrating that what goes for life also goes for atoms. We are all of one ontological substance, which is valuing, "love" as the religions exultingly wish to simplify it. In fact love is 'merely' the most powerful form of valuing/being that is known to us, and we rightly attribute it to the gods, who are more powerful forms of being, valuing, than we are. Jesus' message was one of becoming nothing besides ones valuing too but my criticism is that he didn't offer the means outside of his own epoch; he taught how to value in the condition of sickness hopeless slavery and oppression - he did not teach how to value in a condition of freedom and health, which is the problem. Christian valuing is epochal, to my mind and experience, and it drives out health and happiness in some cases.

Heidegger didn't leave B&T uncompleted for the reason Kelley mentions, but because the book wasn't going anywhere (like many of his sentences, it just went on and on in spirals), as it wasn't grounded in the most thorough understanding available to Heidegger. After leaving the book, he went back to Nietzsche and, in the form of lectures, to very very very carefully and thoroughly explicate what N means with 'will to power' - why truth must be a form of will to power, etc; these lectures are collected in these volumes. Very clearly he did not abandon the project of defining a universal ontology.

So that's prejudice; valuing. We stand on the valuing of previous moments. If we value the wrong things, we cease to exist.

As for light; we are physically made for a large deal of light, as electrons are collapsed photons. (See this thread with Farshight)

So we are left with valuing and light as the two categories of true being.
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Re: Brave Christian Worship

Postby Fixed Cross » Tue May 18, 2021 3:04 pm

I appreciate your praise, although it is not scholarship, just keeping oneself informed. I generally check up on the facts I write before (or after) I write them, but before I post them. When I haven’t, it has been embarrassing.

Your comparison of Christianity with Nazism and Islam ignore the fact that the teaching if Christianity is different to its implementation, which is where the problem lies. It also overlooks the fact that all religions have scriptures that are antiquated to some degree, but the Gospels are also morally challenging, which is probably the biggest reason for the failure to implement its teaching into everyday life. Felix is right in his appraisal of the situation from a theological perspective, its history lets Christianity down, however.

I am harsher than that; I see that christians have let down christianity; as I judge a theorem or a doctrine only by its results and never by what its disclaimer says, never by what it is supposed to be. Always by what it is. The history of christianity is all that christianity is, I have been forced to become very cold in this approach. If a theorem says it will make you fly but in reality makes you run into walls, I won't interpret it as the flying doctrine but as the running into walls doctrine.

Still, Im interested in your take on the gospels and the moral challenges they provide;
as likely there are people who have derived things from Christianity that drove them to noble deeds. I dont honestly know of such people - I rather notice that decent Christians were people who had decent characters and have remained decent in spite of their christianity.

Im being as strict as I can sensibly be here, Im not here to bash the religion as I am friendly to todays christians on a culture-conservative level and I am perfectly aware of the reverence some of my occult teachers (such as Gareth Knight) have for 'Their Lord' - I am here only to speak my own truths, findings, and stand corrected where I may be.

Fixed Cross wrote:It is due to Islam that knowledge of the Greeks has survived. Through Alexander, those writings were exported, gratefully kept and built on in Asia, and after the worst of Christianity was over in Europe, Islamic scholars came to Venice and such cities to share the old classical treasures.

That said, I think the age of spinoffs of Judaeism is sort of spent. I dont see great things coming for the two big monotheistic faiths. I just see that the Jewish god has delivered on his promise, and the others have not.

It wasn’t just Islam that helped Greek culture to survive, otherwise it wouldn’t have played such a role in Christian education. Asia had its own traditions, so a comparison may have taken place, but it was by no means dependent upon transmission of Greek culture. In fact, it may just have been the other way around at an earlier stage, or both had a common source.

It certainly wasn't the other way around, as when Alexander set to Asia it was long before Christ - he planted the knowledge there and it grew there for over a thousand years and defined the first four centuries of islam.

Aristotelean categoricalism was an important early christian method, but it was stripped of any true classical substance, as Aristotle in fact represents both the death and harvest of Greek culture. Still I would have been somewhat sweeping in my statement. Again, correct me where I am wrong.

I was yesterday listening to a discussion of Alan Watts’ book, The Book on the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are, and decided to open it, since I have quite a number of his books. This is what he had to say:
The standard-brand religions, whether Jewish, Christian, Mohammedan, Hindu, or Buddhist, are—as now practiced—like exhausted mines: very hard to dig. With some exceptions not too easily found, their ideas about man and the world, their imagery, their rites, and their notions of the good life don’t seem to fit in with the universe as we now know it, or with a human world that is changing so rapidly that much of what one learns in school is already obsolete on graduation day.
Watts, Alan. The Book on the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are (S.5). Profile. Kindle-Version.

That is truly an outsiders perspective to religion; some of these religions to me are extraordinarily fertile mines, much more so than our present day education. Religion is increasing in vehemence, especially non Abrahamic religion, and Jewish religion has reached its apotheosis in the creation of the state of Israel, which is the radical, miraculous fulfillment of the promise of their god, thousands of years after he made that promise.
I am a trained Kabbalist and Buddhist, and have a lot of experience with Hindu Gods and all of these fields are rich beyond imagining and are very capable of producing power and happiness in man. I just dont see Christianity as being on that level, as basically it denounces the gods who aren't secretly just humans - like Socrates did, and indeed I see Socrates as the seedling for Christianity. It is a cosmopolitan rather than a cosmic system of values. It is all too human, therefore it fails in conveying the divine.

At the same time, Watts saw a need for a transmission of some kind from one generation to the next, but saw it as having a different form.

I disagree - the nature of being remains the same - valuing (see my post to Felix) - and ancient religion shave developed very efficient means to enhance valuing, to enhance life.
Yes, they produced abominable dogma as well, but Indian and Jewish religion thrive on the same values as they were founded thousands of years ago, and they offer access to deep realities.
In terms of pure devotion I am a European pagan, I believe in Zeus, Artemis, -- Odin, Loki - beings much different from monotheistic deities.
I have been approached by the Odinic gods at one point which forced me to believe in them.
I wasn't raised on religion, but rather on physics, astronomy and psychology, but I was confronted with the 'supernatural' when I was 21 and set out to discover what religion is. Just to give you some context of where my ranting comes from.
I just woke up, my writing is chaotic.

… The Book that I would like to slip to my children would itself be slippery. It would slip them into a new domain, not of ideas alone, but of experience and feeling. It would be a temporary medicine, not a diet; a point of departure, not a perpetual point of reference. They would read it and be done with it, for if it were well and clearly written they would not have to go back to it again and again for hidden meanings or for clarification of obscure doctrines.
Watts, Alan. The Book on the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are (S.11-12). Profile. Kindle-Version.

Of course, his books have had that effect on people like me, but they haven’t been quite as effective on others. In GB I believe that Alan Watts is hardly known, especially not by the people on the street. In other countries I have to explain to people about who he is. His biggest following is in the USA or on YouTube.
This makes my point that I mentioned earlier in the thread: Alternatives to Christianity in the West just don’t do the job they want to. People are intellectually lazy, and they need to form habits and rituals to keep them at whatever good they have discovered.

I must stick to my truths and that makes me sound harsh; Christianity through staggering brutality imposed itself on very happy peoples - Celts, the Gauls, the Goths, the Germans, the Vikings - people who had their own gods and ways of life that were very wholesome by todays standards. We dont need alternatives to the oppressor - we need to be rid of him and go back to our old gods. Thats what Ive done and millions are doing with me. It is like waking up from a nightmare. Here is a thread on the gods to which we are re-awakening in the west.
The strong act as they may, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides
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Re: Brave Christian Worship

Postby Fixed Cross » Tue May 18, 2021 5:17 pm

To all Christians reading this some of whom may be my brothers in arms - I never know where Im being read by whom but find out later -
I am not here to bash christianity just for the sake of it. Ive learned of some of its hidden meanings through yogic philosophy, and I have immense respect for the yogi master that seems to have taught Jesus in the decade he was away -

but something is clearly lacking in the doctrine. I wish for this lack to be overcome. Whether that means christianity is overcome, or that it finally realizes itself as a doctrine which doesn't hate its own power, that is not up to me - I am the challenger. I demand of the religion that it rise beyond what it has been, because these are the days of transitioning to a completely new aeon and things have to be done now.

I have continually asked, wondered, what is "the Christ"?
What is the "cosmic Christ"?

Im not asking for repetition of doctrine, Ive probably read everything - Im asking in terms of - what must it be, for it to dignify the Earth?

In my opinion, when Christianity overtook Europe, it was lost, because it had no definition of itself as a power, only as a subject.

What must Christ become so to her comfortable with its power?

Ive earlier and elsewhere proposed the concept of the Horned Christ.
Can we work with this?
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Re: Brave Christian Worship

Postby Fixed Cross » Tue May 18, 2021 10:22 pm

I cant.


Because of the dichotomy 'jesus' vs 'satan'. I just cant make sanctity out of that.

It is tyranny, it forces me to choose between entities both of whom I do not love, both of whom have done nothing to indicate that they value what I love.

Youre either with me or against me. Thats the christian logic and I aint with that.

To that voice I say; Im against your whole dichotomy and I wont fall in the trap of becoming a satanist just because you desecrate what is holy to me and he is your enemy.

All the religion ever says about the devil is precisely what has been done in the name of the jesus.



Ive tried, I really tried.
The strong act as they may, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: Brave Christian Worship

Postby obsrvr524 » Wed May 19, 2021 12:40 am

Zookers are you serious?

Fixed Cross wrote:Ive tried, I really tried.

That tugs at my heart a bit.

Can you really not see the antithetical difference between Jesus and Satan? Those are like extreme opposites. It's like not seeing the difference between North and South - "They are both directions so they must be the same."

I think maybe you are confusing satanistic subversion of Jesus' teachings with what Jesus was actually saying. Jesus was far from being anti-jew - quite the opposite (despite the Christian vs Jew warring). It is like those who claim that Mr Trump was anti-American - just extremely daft political stupidity.

Jesus was = STOP HATING EACH OTHER!
Satan was/is = HATE EVERYONE!!

How can you not see that?

Catholic Christianity became support of the Roman Empire which was antithetical to the Judaist effort to destroy the Roman empire - two political/religious opponents.

So in the war, it became Jew vs Catholic - war of secret, behind the scenes, cabals to reign over all mankind - one through creating division and one trying to unite.

Jesus was all about trying to unite - although knowing that many would insist on dividing - "either you are trying to help unite or you are part of the move to divide".

Jesus was just saying that either you are striving to help life help itself or you are something else - not trying - or actually serving divisiveness. What else is there? You have to be one or the other.

Satan is all - ALL - about creating division by NOT going along - by hating the "other" - whoever that might be. And even if you do not hate - by doing nothing - you are helping the division. It takes conscious effort to stave off the intrinsically easier persuasion to depart - to separate - to become a part of the chaos of the insubstantial - the space between the substantial.

So IF you are not trying - you are the problem. - you are the anti-life - the devil thwarting the conserving of life. Life is the effort - and the real Jews know that.

If you really are trying - you are life - the opposite of Satanism.

Satanism is Mindless Power - with total disregard of life.

You either regard life in your decisions or you disregard life for sake of your mindless urges. Which are you?
Member of The Coalition of Truth - member #1

              You have been observed.
    Though often tempted to encourage a dog to distinguish color I refuse to argue with him about it
    It's just same Satanism as always -
    • separate the bottom from the top,
    • the left from the right,
    • the light from the dark, and
    • blame each for the sins of the other
    • - until they beg you to take charge.
    • -- but "you" have been observed --
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Re: Brave Christian Worship

Postby Ecmandu » Wed May 19, 2021 1:27 am

It’s interesting to see you try to grapple with concepts that you don’t understand. Not bad though.

Umm... how do I put this to you.

Life can’t be destroyed. Even satan knows this.

Satan is an accuser. Satan always accuses god for the throne.

God shouldn’t be sitting on a throne, but that’s besides the point.

In the end, we all see eye to eye.

That there was no point to this, and that we need a new plan.
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Re: Brave Christian Worship

Postby obsrvr524 » Wed May 19, 2021 1:41 am

Ecmandu wrote:we need a new plan.

That is about the only thing you say I can ever agree with.
Member of The Coalition of Truth - member #1

              You have been observed.
    Though often tempted to encourage a dog to distinguish color I refuse to argue with him about it
    It's just same Satanism as always -
    • separate the bottom from the top,
    • the left from the right,
    • the light from the dark, and
    • blame each for the sins of the other
    • - until they beg you to take charge.
    • -- but "you" have been observed --
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Re: Brave Christian Worship

Postby Ecmandu » Wed May 19, 2021 2:21 am

obsrvr524 wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:we need a new plan.

That is about the only thing you say I can ever agree with.


Obsrvr. I’m going to tell you something very straight forward.

When James was on these boards...

I wasn’t as smart as him. Simple. True.

Now I’m a billion times smarter than him.

I know the problems of existence. Not only do I know them, I know how to solve them.

Problem number 1.)

The pleasurable exclusive access problem

Problem number 2.)

The negative zero sum problem

Violating both of these sends you to hell. Since every being is doing it, that sends every being to hell! That’s a serious fucking flaw with the current plan! Some hells are worse than others.

I made a new plan:

Hyperdimensional mirror realities attached to our desire manifestation structures.

It’s a flawless plan.

It actually solves this problem:

We live our desired experiences at nobodies expense.

I’m literally the guy who’s doing all this shit right now. Not you. Not James.
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Re: Brave Christian Worship

Postby obsrvr524 » Wed May 19, 2021 3:03 am

Still -
obsrvr524 wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:we need a new plan.

That is about the only thing you say I can ever agree with.
Member of The Coalition of Truth - member #1

              You have been observed.
    Though often tempted to encourage a dog to distinguish color I refuse to argue with him about it
    It's just same Satanism as always -
    • separate the bottom from the top,
    • the left from the right,
    • the light from the dark, and
    • blame each for the sins of the other
    • - until they beg you to take charge.
    • -- but "you" have been observed --
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Re: Brave Christian Worship

Postby Bob » Wed May 19, 2021 9:07 am

Fixed Cross wrote:I am harsher than that; I see that christians have let down christianity; as I judge a theorem or a doctrine only by its results and never by what its disclaimer says, never by what it is supposed to be. Always by what it is. The history of christianity is all that christianity is, I have been forced to become very cold in this approach. If a theorem says it will make you fly but in reality makes you run into walls, I won't interpret it as the flying doctrine but as the running into walls doctrine.

But is it some kind of a proposition derived from a more general statement? I can understand that people want to deduct and theorise out of the Gospel stories and Epistles, that is what Theology is, but I believe that religion is on a different level. The reductionist rationality tries to make something tangible, graspable out of the stories, but in fact they are more an experience recorded, without having that structure of solid fact. The Gospels ask rhetorically, who is this? The question is put to the disciples, who then answer from faith. The Old Testament does something similar, even though the symbolic language tries to form a basic understanding of the world, the stories are often very allegorical and early theologians have said that the allegorical approach is the right way to read them. How else? The moral teaching of the OT is superseded by the teaching of Christ that goes a step further in professing love as the will of God that wants to be expressed in Christian lives, making them the “salt of the earth”.

Fixed Cross wrote:Still, Im interested in your take on the gospels and the moral challenges they provide; as likely there are people who have derived things from Christianity that drove them to noble deeds. I dont honestly know of such people - I rather notice that decent Christians were people who had decent characters and have remained decent in spite of their christianity.

Im being as strict as I can sensibly be here, Im not here to bash the religion as I am friendly to todays christians on a culture-conservative level and I am perfectly aware of the reverence some of my occult teachers (such as Gareth Knight) have for 'Their Lord' - I am here only to speak my own truths, findings, and stand corrected where I may be.

Felix has somewhere on this thread stated that the church has failed in this, which is something I agreed with. It is a radical lifestyle that Jesus requires of his followers, which led to the Jewish Christians forming communes in which there was no possessions and they shared everything. However, it also led to problems and Paul was collecting from his churches to support them in Israel. To begin with, the teaching of Christ was radical, and people today forget that. The despairing cry of the disciples, “who then can be saved?” is met by the assurance that there will be a “paraclete”, an advocate, helper, or comforter to help them, commonly assumed to be the Holy Spirit. It is the reason why penance became such a big subject in the church.

You also have to see the church in its historical setting, not just its failures in history. Many things that we now find horrific were commonplace in the middle ages, and the various cultures around the world, despite how we may honour them today, were just as bloody. The church was as much a part of that world as it was a driving force for a new morality. This is why the church is said to have been hypocritical, because its ideals were extremely difficult to implement. However, those ideals have gradually become a measure of civilised society – despite the widespread hypocrisy that is still around (in and out of the church). But this is not a purely Christian problem. Wherever moral ideals are professed, there is hypocrisy.

It certainly wasn't the other way around, as when Alexander set to Asia it was long before Christ - he planted the knowledge there and it grew there for over a thousand years and defined the first four centuries of islam.

Where do you think that Islam arose? It wasn’t Asia but Asia minor in 7th century Saudi Arabia. But there is also said to have been Indian influences of Hellenism (Indian Sources of Hellenistic Ethics (socrethics.com)) in early years (, even though Alexanders invasion made a huge cultural impact.

Fixed Cross wrote: That is truly an outsiders perspective to religion; some of these religions to me are extraordinarily fertile mines, much more so than our present day education. Religion is increasing in vehemence, especially non Abrahamic religion, and Jewish religion has reached its apotheosis in the creation of the state of Israel, which is the radical, miraculous fulfillment of the promise of their god, thousands of years after he made that promise.
I am a trained Kabbalist and Buddhist, and have a lot of experience with Hindu Gods and all of these fields are rich beyond imagining and are very capable of producing power and happiness in man. I just dont see Christianity as being on that level, as basically it denounces the gods who aren't secretly just humans - like Socrates did, and indeed I see Socrates as the seedling for Christianity. It is a cosmopolitan rather than a cosmic system of values. It is all too human, therefore it fails in conveying the divine.

I think that Watts saw a lot of fertility in religions, his statement was pointing out that much of what can be known is known. Our problem is in the implementation, because we have words on a page and not experiential knowledge. It is wrong to assume that this is changing or different today. Watts’ subject in the book is the fact that human beings, particularly in the West, have an individualistic perspective which also means that they can’t conceive of the whole and of themselves being one aspect of that whole. Our minds have difficulty in perceiving anything other that bits and opposites, failing to see the opposites as the different sides of the whole. controlled in that way, the senses are overwhelmed with the connectedness that they haven’t been able to see. This has led people to a different interpretation of religion, including Christianity, based on the vision of wholeness.

Fixed Cross wrote:
At the same time, Watts saw a need for a transmission of some kind from one generation to the next, but saw it as having a different form.

I disagree - the nature of being remains the same - valuing (see my post to Felix) - and ancient religion shave developed very efficient means to enhance valuing, to enhance life.
Yes, they produced abominable dogma as well, but Indian and Jewish religion thrive on the same values as they were founded thousands of years ago, and they offer access to deep realities.
In terms of pure devotion I am a European pagan, I believe in Zeus, Artemis, -- Odin, Loki - beings much different from monotheistic deities.
I have been approached by the Odinic gods at one point which forced me to believe in them.
I wasn't raised on religion, but rather on physics, astronomy and psychology, but I was confronted with the 'supernatural' when I was 21 and set out to discover what religion is. Just to give you some context of where my ranting comes from.

See above on the nature of being. The efficiency that enhances life has come very much from and since the enlightenment. I think that our perception of values from thousands of years ago is rather idealistic and people are glad that there is a modern interpretation that saves them having to accept archaic laws. I have listened to Sadhguru, or Jaggi Vasudev, an Indian Yogi and Mystic, who follows his tradition but with a lot of common sense. He says, “If you trace a tradition back to its origin, you will find its roots in the inner experience of an individual or a group of people. A tradition is therefore valuable as an inspiration or tool so that the present generation can arrive at the same experience.” It is this value that we have to transport today.

Fixed Cross wrote: I must stick to my truths and that makes me sound harsh; Christianity through staggering brutality imposed itself on very happy peoples - Celts, the Gauls, the Goths, the Germans, the Vikings - people who had their own gods and ways of life that were very wholesome by todays standards. We dont need alternatives to the oppressor - we need to be rid of him and go back to our old gods. Thats what Ive done and millions are doing with me. It is like waking up from a nightmare. Here is a thread on the gods to which we are re-awakening in the west.
[/quote]
Very idealistic view of a very brutal time …
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
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Re: Brave Christian Worship

Postby Fixed Cross » Wed May 19, 2021 4:41 pm

obsrvr524 wrote:Zookers are you serious?

Fixed Cross wrote:Ive tried, I really tried.

That tugs at my heart a bit.

Can you really not see the antithetical difference between Jesus and Satan? Those are like extreme opposites. It's like not seeing the difference between North and South - "They are both directions so they must be the same."

That antithesis is exactly what I rejected as tyrannical.

Also I noted that what was done in name of Jesus has been the most violent episode in human history; the murder of virtually the entire male population of an entire continent, for example.

So whereas the theoretical antithesis is absolute - a form of ideology I find crude and damaging to the spirit, the actual behavioral results of adhering Jesus is very dark indeed.
I think that this has to do with the absoluteness of the dichotomy, which is unhealthy and unrealistic.
There are no such dichotomies in nature.

I think maybe you are confusing satanistic subversion of Jesus' teachings with what Jesus was actually saying. Jesus was far from being anti-jew - quite the opposite (despite the Christian vs Jew warring). It is like those who claim that Mr Trump was anti-American - just extremely daft political stupidity.

Jesus was = STOP HATING EACH OTHER!
Satan was/is = HATE EVERYONE!!

How can you not see that?

Youve clearly misread me.

Ive rejected the absolute dichotomy and ascribe the factual violence that christianity represents to that absolute dichotomy.
Catholic Christianity became support of the Roman Empire which was antithetical to the Judaist effort to destroy the Roman empire - two political/religious opponents.

So in the war, it became Jew vs Catholic - war of secret, behind the scenes, cabals to reign over all mankind - one through creating division and one trying to unite.

I tis confusing to me that you can think this but I suppose catholics in general think that they have a peaceful organization.
Im from Jewish and Viking lineages and no one has done more to harm us than the Catholics, who were always waging war against people who just wished to govern themselves.

It is curious that the catholics dont see that they are the worlds largest warmachine.
This is at the heart of what I dislike about christianity; it believes itself to be peaceful while it is burning people alive!

I dont see how you guys can keep ignoring this, but Im guessing it is because you never took the trouble to look at it from a nonchristian perspective.

And Jesus was a Jew, mind you, not a Catholic!

Factually, whatever is good about Jesus himself is Jewish, and whatever is corrupted about his teaching is Catholic or Protestant.

The first truly Christian thing the Catholic church might do is to thank the Jews for producing their savior and ask for their forgiveness for two thousand years of persecution of the family of that savior.

Its really very obvious when youre not looking at it through a papal (caesaric) lens.
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Re: Brave Christian Worship

Postby Fixed Cross » Wed May 19, 2021 5:21 pm

Bob wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:I am harsher than that; I see that christians have let down christianity; as I judge a theorem or a doctrine only by its results and never by what its disclaimer says, never by what it is supposed to be. Always by what it is. The history of christianity is all that christianity is, I have been forced to become very cold in this approach. If a theorem says it will make you fly but in reality makes you run into walls, I won't interpret it as the flying doctrine but as the running into walls doctrine.

But is it some kind of a proposition derived from a more general statement? I can understand that people want to deduct and theorise out of the Gospel stories and Epistles, that is what Theology is, but I believe that religion is on a different level. The reductionist rationality tries to make something tangible, graspable out of the stories, but in fact they are more an experience recorded, without having that structure of solid fact. The Gospels ask rhetorically, who is this? The question is put to the disciples, who then answer from faith. The Old Testament does something similar, even though the symbolic language tries to form a basic understanding of the world, the stories are often very allegorical and early theologians have said that the allegorical approach is the right way to read them. How else? The moral teaching of the OT is superseded by the teaching of Christ that goes a step further in professing love as the will of God that wants to be expressed in Christian lives, making them the “salt of the earth”.

Hold on - what is, to your mind then, the moral teaching of the OT? The ten commandments? It is a very large collection of stories and certainly the Jews do not consider there to be a singular moral teaching to it. That is why they have the Talmud; endless reasoning about what may have been meant, here, there - Jewish morality is always in evolution, as morality should be if it is to be vital.

But what Im speaking to generally is simply, reality. Not what is professed about people in Jesus' time of whom we have absolutely no factual knowledge, but about what has factually been done by christians throughout the reign of christianity. Which is very horrible and I dont see anyone even attempting to address that.
Thats what makes me distrust christianity more and ore - the fact that no christian ever wants to reflect on his tradition, that with all the brutality that it represents, the sanctimoniousness reigns supreme.
Its dirty, unwashed.

I hope there will be a transformation in this, that christianity will become self-aware. And this is what Im trying for here. If I didnt have that hope I wouldnt be spending energy on it.

Fixed Cross wrote:Still, Im interested in your take on the gospels and the moral challenges they provide; as likely there are people who have derived things from Christianity that drove them to noble deeds. I dont honestly know of such people - I rather notice that decent Christians were people who had decent characters and have remained decent in spite of their christianity.

Im being as strict as I can sensibly be here, Im not here to bash the religion as I am friendly to todays christians on a culture-conservative level and I am perfectly aware of the reverence some of my occult teachers (such as Gareth Knight) have for 'Their Lord' - I am here only to speak my own truths, findings, and stand corrected where I may be.

Felix has somewhere on this thread stated that the church has failed in this, which is something I agreed with. It is a radical lifestyle that Jesus requires of his followers, which led to the Jewish Christians forming communes in which there was no possessions and they shared everything. However, it also led to problems and Paul was collecting from his churches to support them in Israel. To begin with, the teaching of Christ was radical, and people today forget that. The despairing cry of the disciples, “who then can be saved?” is met by the assurance that there will be a “paraclete”, an advocate, helper, or comforter to help them, commonly assumed to be the Holy Spirit. It is the reason why penance became such a big subject in the church.

You also have to see the church in its historical setting, not just its failures in history. Many things that we now find horrific were commonplace in the middle ages, and the various cultures around the world, despite how we may honour them today, were just as bloody. The church was as much a part of that world as it was a driving force for a new morality. This is why the church is said to have been hypocritical, because its ideals were extremely difficult to implement. However, those ideals have gradually become a measure of civilised society – despite the widespread hypocrisy that is still around (in and out of the church). But this is not a purely Christian problem. Wherever moral ideals are professed, there is hypocrisy.

No, I cant go along with that. The world is as brutal as ever, perhaps more brutal at this point than it has ever been, and especially civilized society is endlessly brutal in the costs it inflicts on other life.
The christians, after the prechristian romans, brutalized Europe and near completely destroyed the beautiful cultures of northern Europe.
The desecrated the goddesses of nature everywhere, desecrated the female sex in general, jusr desecrated every single beautiful thing of humanity, and called this desecration, holy.
All of this is the very opposite of love.

What could be more loveless than the institutionalization of love?

It certainly wasn't the other way around, as when Alexander set to Asia it was long before Christ - he planted the knowledge there and it grew there for over a thousand years and defined the first four centuries of islam.

Where do you think that Islam arose? It wasn’t Asia but Asia minor in 7th century Saudi Arabia. But there is also said to have been Indian influences of Hellenism (Indian Sources of Hellenistic Ethics (socrethics.com)) in early years (, even though Alexanders invasion made a huge cultural impact.

Asia minor is part of the continent of Asia.
Yes, Indian culture contributed to the mathematics that flourished in the rise of Islam. But mostly it was Greek influence.
The golden age of Islam, from roughly 700 to roughly 1100, includes vast amounts of mathematicians and astronomers. The word Algebra is an Arab name, Al Jabr.

Fixed Cross wrote: That is truly an outsiders perspective to religion; some of these religions to me are extraordinarily fertile mines, much more so than our present day education. Religion is increasing in vehemence, especially non Abrahamic religion, and Jewish religion has reached its apotheosis in the creation of the state of Israel, which is the radical, miraculous fulfillment of the promise of their god, thousands of years after he made that promise.
I am a trained Kabbalist and Buddhist, and have a lot of experience with Hindu Gods and all of these fields are rich beyond imagining and are very capable of producing power and happiness in man. I just dont see Christianity as being on that level, as basically it denounces the gods who aren't secretly just humans - like Socrates did, and indeed I see Socrates as the seedling for Christianity. It is a cosmopolitan rather than a cosmic system of values. It is all too human, therefore it fails in conveying the divine.

I think that Watts saw a lot of fertility in religions, his statement was pointing out that much of what can be known is known. Our problem is in the implementation, because we have words on a page and not experiential knowledge. It is wrong to assume that this is changing or different today. Watts’ subject in the book is the fact that human beings, particularly in the West, have an individualistic perspective which also means that they can’t conceive of the whole and of themselves being one aspect of that whole. Our minds have difficulty in perceiving anything other that bits and opposites, failing to see the opposites as the different sides of the whole. controlled in that way, the senses are overwhelmed with the connectedness that they haven’t been able to see. This has led people to a different interpretation of religion, including Christianity, based on the vision of wholeness.

I find that this inability only exists in the Christian and late islamic worlds - it doesnt exist in Paganism. We have absolutely no trouble with experiencing the divine, as it is literally in each atom, and our gods reflect thi and our rituals are effective in bringing this out.
Christianity is the suppression of the divine, as seen from our perspective; even the suppression of its own prophet, as you and Felix agree.

Fixed Cross wrote:
At the same time, Watts saw a need for a transmission of some kind from one generation to the next, but saw it as having a different form.

I disagree - the nature of being remains the same - valuing (see my post to Felix) - and ancient religion shave developed very efficient means to enhance valuing, to enhance life.
Yes, they produced abominable dogma as well, but Indian and Jewish religion thrive on the same values as they were founded thousands of years ago, and they offer access to deep realities.
In terms of pure devotion I am a European pagan, I believe in Zeus, Artemis, -- Odin, Loki - beings much different from monotheistic deities.
I have been approached by the Odinic gods at one point which forced me to believe in them.
I wasn't raised on religion, but rather on physics, astronomy and psychology, but I was confronted with the 'supernatural' when I was 21 and set out to discover what religion is. Just to give you some context of where my ranting comes from.

See above on the nature of being. The efficiency that enhances life has come very much from and since the enlightenment. I think that our perception of values from thousands of years ago is rather idealistic and people are glad that there is a modern interpretation that saves them having to accept archaic laws. I have listened to Sadhguru, or Jaggi Vasudev, an Indian Yogi and Mystic, who follows his tradition but with a lot of common sense. He says, “If you trace a tradition back to its origin, you will find its roots in the inner experience of an individual or a group of people. A tradition is therefore valuable as an inspiration or tool so that the present generation can arrive at the same experience.” It is this value that we have to transport today.

Yet the Enlightenment, flowing out of the Renaissance, was a result of the abandoning of the Christian approach to wisdom, and a return to the Greek approach.
Modernity and emancipation all happened in fierce struggle against the church.

Only in this very recent moment in time, there is a doctrine of institutionalized love that is even more cynical and machinal than christianity, which is Marxism; and only now, Christianity is becoming something relatively decent, relatively self-aware compared to that newer tyrannization of love.

Fixed Cross wrote: I must stick to my truths and that makes me sound harsh; Christianity through staggering brutality imposed itself on very happy peoples - Celts, the Gauls, the Goths, the Germans, the Vikings - people who had their own gods and ways of life that were very wholesome by todays standards. We dont need alternatives to the oppressor - we need to be rid of him and go back to our old gods. Thats what Ive done and millions are doing with me. It is like waking up from a nightmare. Here is a thread on the gods to which we are re-awakening in the west.

Very idealistic view of a very brutal time …

Its not idealistic, as it is my personal experience, I am happy and fulfilled through the development of Presocratic philosophy as well as Norse paganism. I know there are millions on this same path.

The brutality of the time is the end of the great monotheistic faiths, their discovery of the truth about themselves;
these end times have been announced in the early writings of these faiths, I imagine their prophets were able to divine the ultimate consequences of their tenets;
the very dark consequences implicit in the institutionalization and legislation of love, its conditioning by obligation. Thou shalt love me, through me, as me, or suffer!

Thou shalt love this, but burn to death that - for god is love!
that ethics is coming to its natural end. How could it have ended otherwise than in an apocalypse? This was always implicit.

What lies beyond this apocalypse is a return to earthly values, to the capacity of actual, spontaneous joy, honest valuing, natural love, which is far sweeter than prescribed love. But this does nothing to diminish the brutality of the apocalypse. Trust me, Im not idealist and never have been. That is precisely why I dont have illusions about christianity and its destiny, and why I so much love Odin.
The strong act as they may, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: Brave Christian Worship

Postby Fixed Cross » Wed May 19, 2021 5:41 pm

obsrvr524 wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:we need a new plan.

That is about the only thing you say I can ever agree with.

What we need is a new Adoraton (temple), an earthly worship, a new tradition of bestowing value unto what is truly next to and in front of us.

An end to metaphysics, a return to the adoration of what exists, gives itself to us; a gratitude to Earth.

A new paganism. A new encounter with the ancient.

For many of us this has already arrived.

Praise be to Odin.
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Re: Brave Christian Worship

Postby Fixed Cross » Wed May 19, 2021 7:51 pm

What I mean by that is not an 'institutional love' such as Christianity enforces, not a restriction placed on what your love should be like, whom you should love and to what you should attribute your love, all those things are Christian Imperialisms, essentially commanding that you love your Heavenly Emperor and not your own roots.

I rather mean the invitation to recognize that being is itself valuing, and to cultivate being as such.


To a Northern European perspective, here is what happened:

First Rome conquered much of our lands, but it allowed us to worship as we pleased. Then Rome took on Christianity as its state religion, and began killing everyone in its dominion who didn't wish to join this lugubrious imperial religion. Everyone who stood their ground, everyone who was brave enough to remain true, was murdered, "for his own sake" no less.

The irony is that the subjects of this regime actually believe that this hideous oppression is love. Much like the raging lunatics of marx today believe their masters brutality and their own emotional poverty is love.
The strong act as they may, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: Brave Christian Worship

Postby felix dakat » Wed May 19, 2021 8:15 pm

The time in which Jesus lived was much like the present time when the age was turning. Jesus saw everything not in terms of the way God had been conceived in the Hebrew Bible but in terms of The God who was coming. This is the unknown God the God above God. It's the same today. Everybody feels it on some level whether they are conscious of it or not. People are looking around for a prophet to tell them what's going on.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: Brave Christian Worship

Postby obsrvr524 » Wed May 19, 2021 9:13 pm

felix dakat wrote:The time in which Jesus lived was much like the present time when the age was turning.

That is certainly true.

felix dakat wrote:Jesus saw everything not in terms of the way God had been conceived in the Hebrew Bible but in terms of The God who was coming. This is the unknown God the God above God. It's the same today.

I don't know about that part.

I think it feels the same because every time they try to take down the world's leading nation they use the same tactics - propaganda and satanism (or "obfuscation and extortion"). Back then it was Rome and now the USA. Both republics.

When James said it is the "Godwannabes" that are the root problem and "in war there are no good guys" - that rang true. The Persians wanted to be God - Caesar wanted to be God - Judea wanted to be God - the Catholics wanted to be God - the Nazis wanted to be God - the Ayatollah wants to be God - Islam wants to be God - the CCP wants to be God - and most significantly today the authoritarian globalists want to be God. And in order to be God they must use every conceivable trick and overreach abuse to gain that power - including creating diseases.

What I like about the US Constitution is that it directly forbids anyone from gaining that power through its separation of powers and democratic elections (including the Electoral College). And that is why the global Godwannabes hate it so much and are trying to pull every possible trick to get rid of it - through subversion, Marxism, and insurrection. In the US the Democrat party serves the global authoritarians right on the verge of making the US a one party, CCP style communist regime - another Godwannabe regime.

And during this war to be Global God against the US Constitution - there are no good blokes.
Member of The Coalition of Truth - member #1

              You have been observed.
    Though often tempted to encourage a dog to distinguish color I refuse to argue with him about it
    It's just same Satanism as always -
    • separate the bottom from the top,
    • the left from the right,
    • the light from the dark, and
    • blame each for the sins of the other
    • - until they beg you to take charge.
    • -- but "you" have been observed --
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Re: Brave Christian Worship

Postby felix dakat » Wed May 19, 2021 10:11 pm

obsrvr524 wrote:
felix dakat wrote:The time in which Jesus lived was much like the present time when the age was turning.

That is certainly true.

felix dakat wrote:Jesus saw everything not in terms of the way God had been conceived in the Hebrew Bible but in terms of The God who was coming. This is the unknown God the God above God. It's the same today.

I don't know about that part.

I think it feels the same because every time they try to take down the world's leading nation they use the same tactics - propaganda and satanism (or "obfuscation and extortion"). Back then it was Rome and now the USA. Both republics.

When James said it is the "Godwannabes" that are the root problem and "in war there are no good guys" - that rang true. The Persians wanted to be God - Caesar wanted to be God - Judea wanted to be God - the Catholics wanted to be God - the Nazis wanted to be God - the Ayatollah wants to be God - Islam wants to be God - the CCP wants to be God - and most significantly today the authoritarian globalists want to be God. And in order to be God they must use every conceivable trick and overreach abuse to gain that power - including creating diseases.

What I like about the US Constitution is that it directly forbids anyone from gaining that power through its separation of powers and democratic elections (including the Electoral College). And that is why the global Godwannabes hate it so much and are trying to pull every possible trick to get rid of it - through subversion, Marxism, and insurrection. In the US the Democrat party serves the global authoritarians right on the verge of making the US a one party, CCP style communist regime - another Godwannabe regime.

And during this war to be Global God against the US Constitution - there are no good blokes.


Of course Jesus lived in a different universe, as it were. To overlook that fact is to get it all wrong.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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