The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby polishyouthgotipbanned » Fri May 07, 2021 6:42 pm

Collective responsibility is a normal social reflex, sane, non-autistic humans possess but each man has his own soul and there are no collective souls so there can be no collective sin or guilt, only collective responsibility. Responsibility isn't the same as guilt. The Germans as a nation are responsible for the Holocaust but they are not guilty of it; guilty is a qualification of being responsible, where there is a reasonable degree of awareness and meditation of what one does and what will follow. The German nation as a whole fuelled the genocidal machine but it can't be said the whole nation knew it would end up in what ended up happening nor wanted it to be so. My great-grandmother still got half of her front teeth knocked out by an SS-man at 16 though, with which she lived till 91.
Last edited by polishyouthgotipbanned on Fri May 07, 2021 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
At the beginning there was only Chaos, Night, dark Erebus, and deep Tartarus. Earth, the air and heaven had no existence. Firstly, blackwinged Night laid a germless egg in the bosom of the infinite deeps of Erebus, and from this, after the revolution of long ages, sprang the graceful Eros with his glittering golden wings, swift as the whirlwinds of the tempest. He mated in deep Tartarus with dark Chaos, winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race, which was the first to see the light. That of the Immortals did nove yielded themselves to their lovers when almost at the end of their youth, being led away by the gift of a quail, a waterfowl, a goose, or a cock.
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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby felix dakat » Fri May 07, 2021 6:50 pm

Bob wrote:Whilst I can understand the anger that has been especially voiced by people like Christopher Hitchins regarding Christianity, I tend to think that perversions and cruelty are found on both sides because it is a human problem rather than a matter of creed. I have no doubt that all religions have had their Taliban phase, but the people born a generation later cannot be held responsible for their predecessors, especially if they condemn the cruelty that took place then. Let alone people born millennia later. The horrors of Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia and Mao's Communism cannot be laid at the door of religion, but they are examples of ideological warfare, that have proven themselves to be far more effective in destroying the lives and traditions of their people than anything that Nixey has claimed the Christians did in her rather one-sided book.

Despite the failings of all religions at some time in history, Christianity was the force that enabled the Enlightenment, despite the fact that it turned on the Church. We can't avoid the fact that Greek culture, after the church went through an unstable phase after coming to power, was responsible for restoring the literature that we now refer to as the classics. Like any human being, the Church has made mistakes - because it is human.


As Peterson points out social hierarchy is not only human it's premammalian. So when an organization claims divine authority for its hierarchy it becomes seriously problematic. Enlightenment critics of the church saw that. Today people are widely critical of traditional institutions. Organized religions are losing members. Social cohesion in general is being stressed. Yeat's question "can the center hold?" continues to resound in our time.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby felix dakat » Fri May 07, 2021 6:53 pm

polishyouthgotipbanned wrote:Collective responsibility is a normal social reflex, sane, non-autistic humans possess but each man has his own soul and there are no collective souls so there can be no collective sin or guilt, only collective responsibility. Responsibility isn't the same as guilt. The Germans as a nation are responsible for the Holocaust but they are not guilty of it; guilty is a qualification of being responsible, where there is a reasonable degree of awareness and meditation of what one does and what will follow. The German nation as a whole fuelled the genocidal machine but it can't be said the whole nation knew it would end up in what ended up happening nor wanted it to be so. My great-grandmother still got half of her front teeth knocked out by an SS-man at 16 though, with which she lived till 91.


I agree with your point about collective guilt. Belief in it has led to atrocities including genocide.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby polishyouthgotipbanned » Fri May 07, 2021 6:55 pm

Peterson is a quack, Id not listen to him. Humans are just as within the animal kingdom as outside of it. Pointing out to some lobster behavioral characteristics and spinning whole theories about human society and behaviour off this simple fact is insane(reminds me of my step-dad SATIRE and his profound insights). If it were that simple...why not just study lobsters and forget about economics, sociology and so forth??? Put a few million lobsters in a mega-tank and predict the next financial crash....
At the beginning there was only Chaos, Night, dark Erebus, and deep Tartarus. Earth, the air and heaven had no existence. Firstly, blackwinged Night laid a germless egg in the bosom of the infinite deeps of Erebus, and from this, after the revolution of long ages, sprang the graceful Eros with his glittering golden wings, swift as the whirlwinds of the tempest. He mated in deep Tartarus with dark Chaos, winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race, which was the first to see the light. That of the Immortals did nove yielded themselves to their lovers when almost at the end of their youth, being led away by the gift of a quail, a waterfowl, a goose, or a cock.
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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby felix dakat » Fri May 07, 2021 7:29 pm

polishyouthgotipbanned wrote:Peterson is a quack, Id not listen to him. Humans are just as within the animal kingdom as outside of it. Pointing out to some lobster behavioral characteristics and spinning whole theories about human society and behaviour off this simple fact is insane(reminds me of my step-dad SATIRE and his profound insights). If it were that simple...why not just study lobsters and forget about economics, sociology and so forth??? Put a few million lobsters in a mega-tank and predict the next financial crash....

No Peterson's point about hierarchy is well taken. Show me where social groups don't organize themselves that way. Show me where leaders don't get serotonin power boosts. Show me that primates including humans don't organize themselves in hierarchical structures. Show me a flat society that works.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby polishyouthgotipbanned » Fri May 07, 2021 7:36 pm

felix my friend 8) 8) 8)
At the beginning there was only Chaos, Night, dark Erebus, and deep Tartarus. Earth, the air and heaven had no existence. Firstly, blackwinged Night laid a germless egg in the bosom of the infinite deeps of Erebus, and from this, after the revolution of long ages, sprang the graceful Eros with his glittering golden wings, swift as the whirlwinds of the tempest. He mated in deep Tartarus with dark Chaos, winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race, which was the first to see the light. That of the Immortals did nove yielded themselves to their lovers when almost at the end of their youth, being led away by the gift of a quail, a waterfowl, a goose, or a cock.
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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby felix dakat » Fri May 07, 2021 7:53 pm

polishyouthgotipbanned wrote:felix my friend 8) 8) 8)


:)
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby Bob » Fri May 07, 2021 9:57 pm

I'm afraid I posted this one in the wrong topic.

See https://ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=196994
Last edited by Bob on Sat May 08, 2021 7:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby polishyouthgotipbanned » Fri May 07, 2021 10:28 pm

That is as perverse as suggesting the Jews caused the Holocaust. Christianity tries always to take credit for the work of the brave people they murdered, for the fruits of the cultures they ravaged. It's a heartwrenchingly cruel and barren doctrine. Im not enjoying this expose, I'm always sorry to even try to make Christian's look critically at their heritage. It's never going to happen, as "criticism" to a Christian never occurs but after the axiom that christianity is good. That always stands beyond doubt. Which itself is a sure sign of its questionable ethics.

No true religion proclaims itself as the good. It just offers itself as a gift for those who may freely take it up.

I lay little of the blame at Jesus his own feet, much more at the Roman agents wrote the gospels, using him to extend the Caesars rule to the domain of religion. Before Christianity religious freedom was taken for granted everywhere. Still - A charismatic man of enormous claims to entitlement performing magic tricks to get people to give him their souls.

Does this not ring a bell?

You are talking shit. Not once concrete historical fact, just pulling shit out of your arse and talking as if you are telling everybody that the sun will rise tomorrow. Give me few examples of these great minds that Christians murdered and took credit for???
At the beginning there was only Chaos, Night, dark Erebus, and deep Tartarus. Earth, the air and heaven had no existence. Firstly, blackwinged Night laid a germless egg in the bosom of the infinite deeps of Erebus, and from this, after the revolution of long ages, sprang the graceful Eros with his glittering golden wings, swift as the whirlwinds of the tempest. He mated in deep Tartarus with dark Chaos, winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race, which was the first to see the light. That of the Immortals did nove yielded themselves to their lovers when almost at the end of their youth, being led away by the gift of a quail, a waterfowl, a goose, or a cock.
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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon May 10, 2021 5:44 pm

Oh .. I expected some form of intelligent response.... you were all needy in my thread for me to come back here.
Hm

What to answer.

to talk to someone who doesn't even know about the murders of free thinkers committed by Christianity is a bit pointless.

Sure bud. Youve got a great religion. The fact that the dark ages coincided precisely with its reign and ended precisely when muslims brought over remnants of Greek thinking, which the christians destroyed (ah I mean, uhh didn't destroy) is pure coincidence. Nay - slander!

Seriously I had no idea there still exist literate people who dont know the history of christianity. But I guess to be a christian you must be truly ignorant of the history of your creed.

The rule of scholasticism is known as the longest period without any intellectual advances; over a thousand years, since Aristotle essentially until Bacon.
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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon May 10, 2021 8:04 pm

Still and all, as far as Christianity goes, there is a powerful variant which is the Greek-Russian kind. There's also the Christianity of the Kabbalists, Gareth Knight, etc. Then there's Steve Bannon, who is a great warrior and a Christians.

There are a lot of powerful things connected to the religion.
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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby polishyouthgotipbanned » Mon May 10, 2021 8:17 pm

You realise that there is whole of ancient Rome between Aristotle and scholasticism you dumb kook??? The old yank atheistic tripe of nothing between Aristotle and modernity is too fucking old bro...I heard a Jew say it like 50 times.
At the beginning there was only Chaos, Night, dark Erebus, and deep Tartarus. Earth, the air and heaven had no existence. Firstly, blackwinged Night laid a germless egg in the bosom of the infinite deeps of Erebus, and from this, after the revolution of long ages, sprang the graceful Eros with his glittering golden wings, swift as the whirlwinds of the tempest. He mated in deep Tartarus with dark Chaos, winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race, which was the first to see the light. That of the Immortals did nove yielded themselves to their lovers when almost at the end of their youth, being led away by the gift of a quail, a waterfowl, a goose, or a cock.
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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon May 10, 2021 8:24 pm

Sorry but you seem far more ignorant than I had originally figured.

Ancient Rome made no advances in science or philosophy.

Try reading some Francis Bacon maybe. His important text are not available online (naturally, as they're actually important), you'll have to read like an actual book. I know thats gonna be really painful for you. But its all I can recommend at this stage.
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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon May 10, 2021 8:28 pm

It's unfathomable, truly, the degree of your ignorance.

Fucking hell.
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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon May 10, 2021 8:40 pm

Christianity as an institution is merely the continuation of the decadent rule of Caesars.

But why am I giving you facts - you have ignored almost every fact Ive placed in front of you.

Go reread my posts and answer to them with some sincerity if you can muster it. I try to respect Christians a little bit as some of them are among the not so extremely sick on this planet as they tend to mistrust government, which is a healthy thing nowadays, but you make it very hard, you just confirm the impression Ive had of your people since early childhood. Cowards, idiots, hypocrites, illiterates, and arrogant at that.
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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon May 10, 2021 8:54 pm

You do at least know that Bacon is the father of the scientific method, I hope. If we dont count Machiavelli, to whom Bacon expresses some basic indebtedness.

"We have as yet no natural philosophy that is pure. All is tainted and corrupted; in Aristotle's school by logic; im Plato's by natural theology; in the second school of Platonists, such as Proclus and others, by mathematics; which ought only to give definitiveness to natural philosophy, not to generate or give it birth. From a natural philosophy pure and unmixed, better things are to be expected."

- Francis Bacon, The New Organon, Book One, Section 96
Last edited by Fixed Cross on Mon May 10, 2021 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby polishyouthgotipbanned » Mon May 10, 2021 8:55 pm

lol, Ancient Rome made no advancements scientifically... :o :o :o Romans invented the modern world you dullard...infrastructure, governance systems, law, justice philosophies, plumbing, architecture, welfare, concrete...what are you talking about you spook??? are you repeating what I said you dullard??? you red me say Bacon is the father of modern science and now you say it as if I never claimed it you dullard...wtf is wrong with you???
Last edited by polishyouthgotipbanned on Mon May 10, 2021 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
At the beginning there was only Chaos, Night, dark Erebus, and deep Tartarus. Earth, the air and heaven had no existence. Firstly, blackwinged Night laid a germless egg in the bosom of the infinite deeps of Erebus, and from this, after the revolution of long ages, sprang the graceful Eros with his glittering golden wings, swift as the whirlwinds of the tempest. He mated in deep Tartarus with dark Chaos, winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race, which was the first to see the light. That of the Immortals did nove yielded themselves to their lovers when almost at the end of their youth, being led away by the gift of a quail, a waterfowl, a goose, or a cock.
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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon May 10, 2021 8:56 pm

Ok so you have literally no idea what science is.

Entirely befitting for a Christian.

Hopeless.
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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon May 10, 2021 8:57 pm

Im laughing my ass off here - plumbing. That's what the christian thinks of as "scientific method"


Priceless.
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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby polishyouthgotipbanned » Mon May 10, 2021 8:59 pm

engineering is science you dullard.
At the beginning there was only Chaos, Night, dark Erebus, and deep Tartarus. Earth, the air and heaven had no existence. Firstly, blackwinged Night laid a germless egg in the bosom of the infinite deeps of Erebus, and from this, after the revolution of long ages, sprang the graceful Eros with his glittering golden wings, swift as the whirlwinds of the tempest. He mated in deep Tartarus with dark Chaos, winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race, which was the first to see the light. That of the Immortals did nove yielded themselves to their lovers when almost at the end of their youth, being led away by the gift of a quail, a waterfowl, a goose, or a cock.
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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby promethean75 » Mon May 10, 2021 9:06 pm

This is one where the barbarium hasn't been wrong yet, p-youf.

By scientific and scientific 'method', what is meant is not the physical products of machines and labor, but an organized way of thinking gathering information/data, and creating theories.

Ur boy bacon was talking about proper thinking, the rules of induction and inference, the differences between kinds of knowledge (a priori, a posteriori, etc.) and how to exercise these things in order to get objective knowledge about the whirled.

So while plumbing is indeed a product of science or its influence, it is not a necessary feature of what it is and means to be scientific.

And don't talk to me I hate u, p-youf.
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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby polishyouthgotipbanned » Mon May 10, 2021 9:12 pm

try harder u chomo
At the beginning there was only Chaos, Night, dark Erebus, and deep Tartarus. Earth, the air and heaven had no existence. Firstly, blackwinged Night laid a germless egg in the bosom of the infinite deeps of Erebus, and from this, after the revolution of long ages, sprang the graceful Eros with his glittering golden wings, swift as the whirlwinds of the tempest. He mated in deep Tartarus with dark Chaos, winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race, which was the first to see the light. That of the Immortals did nove yielded themselves to their lovers when almost at the end of their youth, being led away by the gift of a quail, a waterfowl, a goose, or a cock.
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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby promethean75 » Mon May 10, 2021 9:18 pm

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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby polishyouthgotipbanned » Mon May 10, 2021 11:33 pm

this idiot kook wanted to say something poetic and deep, blurted some pretentious shit about a cultural chasm gap between Aristotle and Modernity and did not think it through enough to realise that he, in his idiocy, flew over whole of Ancient Rome :-? :-? :-? so to keep face, this idiot will now argue with me that Ancient Romans had no science and no innovation :-? :-? :-? :-?
reminds me of SATIRE who right now is arguing that he absolutely can show there is no absolutes and is providing explanations of how everything started :-? :-? :-?
a civilised person knows his limits,,,you???like wild animals, pretence and false to the last living breath...no honour no shame no dignity, humanity is not the same as being a human.
At the beginning there was only Chaos, Night, dark Erebus, and deep Tartarus. Earth, the air and heaven had no existence. Firstly, blackwinged Night laid a germless egg in the bosom of the infinite deeps of Erebus, and from this, after the revolution of long ages, sprang the graceful Eros with his glittering golden wings, swift as the whirlwinds of the tempest. He mated in deep Tartarus with dark Chaos, winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race, which was the first to see the light. That of the Immortals did nove yielded themselves to their lovers when almost at the end of their youth, being led away by the gift of a quail, a waterfowl, a goose, or a cock.
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Re: The Sacking of Classical Greece and Rome

Postby MagsJ » Tue May 11, 2021 9:54 am

felix dakat wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:Bottom line is in the degree of perversity. christianity introduced the idea that when you torture kill someone of another faith you are doing them a favour.

Isnt that the sickest thing conceivable to your minds?

Burning people alive as an expression of what is felt by the killer as his sweet baby innocence. That's what xtianity has always shown itself as to me.

And you xtians here don't even bother denying it. Its normal to you. Good even.


I'm not going to take responsibility for all the bad shit that has been done in the name of Christ throughout history anymore than I'm going to take responsibility for enslaving black people or massacring indigenous Americans. I find it difficult enough to take responsibility for my own actions.

=D>

Those Christians probably aren’t even related to the Western Christians of this modern era, who were responsible for the crusades and inquisitions.
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