iambiguous wrote:That's how these things always seem to unfold.
Were those who stormed the Capitol terrorists or patriots?
Well, we are all in the same boat here.
First, we have to acknowledge the gap between what we think that we know about it and all that there is to be known about it. The gap between an omniscient understanding of it and that more or less tiny fraction of knowledge that we have of it "here and now". Going back to all there is to be known about the existence of existence itself. How does our own infinitesimally puny speck of existence here figure into the really, really, really Big Questions.
Now my argument is that we take out of questions like this what we first put into them: our "self".
If the existential trajectory of our lives went in one direction we call them terrorists, if in another direction we call them patriots. But for those of an authoritarian bent, what matters is not so much what they are but that they are either one or the other. They need to believe that the answer is within our reach.
After all, that's where, psychologically, the comfort and the consolation lie. In knowing that we are right and they are wrong. Thus, even if the bad guys win, it doesn't make them less wrong.
d0rkyd00d wrote:iambiguous wrote:That's how these things always seem to unfold.
Were those who stormed the Capitol terrorists or patriots?
Well, we are all in the same boat here.
First, we have to acknowledge the gap between what we think that we know about it and all that there is to be known about it. The gap between an omniscient understanding of it and that more or less tiny fraction of knowledge that we have of it "here and now". Going back to all there is to be known about the existence of existence itself. How does our own infinitesimally puny speck of existence here figure into the really, really, really Big Questions.
Now my argument is that we take out of questions like this what we first put into them: our "self".
If the existential trajectory of our lives went in one direction we call them terrorists, if in another direction we call them patriots. But for those of an authoritarian bent, what matters is not so much what they are but that they are either one or the other. They need to believe that the answer is within our reach.
After all, that's where, psychologically, the comfort and the consolation lie. In knowing that we are right and they are wrong. Thus, even if the bad guys win, it doesn't make them less wrong.
To say "we are all in the same boat here" demonstrates a blatant disregard, or at least disparate treatment, of what should be considered "facts" and "evidence" for most of us.
After all, that's where, psychologically, the comfort and the consolation lie. In knowing that we are right and they are wrong. Thus, even if the bad guys win, it doesn't make them less wrong.
d0rkyd00d wrote: What is your statement exactly, the assertion that no commonly shared facts or knowledge about the universe is possible?
d0rkyd00d wrote: I suppose in some obscure philosophical realm that is an interesting discussion, but IMO has little practical relevance to the reality most of us have to co-exist in.
Light travels at approximately 186,000 miles a second. That is about 6,000,000,000,000 miles a year.
The closest star to us is Alpha Centauri. It is 4.75 light-years away. 28,500,000,000,000 miles.
So, traveling at 186,000 miles a second, it would take us 4.75 years to reach it. The voyager spacecraft [just now exiting our solar system] will take 70,000 years to reach it.
To reach the center of the Milky Way galaxy it would take 100,000 light-years.
Or this:
"To get to the closest galaxy to ours, the Canis Major Dwarf, at Voyager's speed, it would take approximately 749,000,000 years to travel the distance of 25,000 light years! If we could travel at the speed of light, it would still take 25,000 years!"
The Andromeda galaxy is 2.537 million light years away.
Or this:
"The universe is about 13.7 billion years old. Light reaching us from the earliest known galaxies has been traveling, therefore, for more than 13 billion years. So one might assume that the radius of the universe is 13.7 billion light-years and that the whole shebang is double that, or 27.4 billion light-years wide."
For all practical purposes, it is beyond the imagination of mere mortals here on planet Earth to grasp just how staggeringly immense the universe is. As for situating "I" in all of this...?
Or this:
"It turns out that roughly 68% of the universe is dark energy. Dark matter makes up about 27%. The rest - everything on Earth, everything ever observed with all of our instruments, all normal matter - adds up to less than 5% of the universe." nasa
,[/quote]Meno_ wrote:Iambigious says:
"is or is not a reasonable assessment of what transpires when those I deem to be political objectivists attempt to establish if in fact they are either terrorists or patriots.
Based on the arguments that I make in my signature threads.
d0rkyd00d wrote: If you are claiming is that an individual who is raised as a child in Iraq has the same kind of facts to establish that the U.S. is a terrorist country, from their perspective, as Americans had to establish Iraq as a terrorist country, then I agree. I don't find that claim to be very interesting, or controversial, except perhaps to the dimwitted.
d0rkyd00d wrote: But your argument also seems to be ad ignorantiam: there are limits to how close we can come to "reality;" therefore, "those who call them terrorists or those who call them patriots...have their own collections of facts and evidence to "prove" their point?"
If one places any importance to defining terms before engaging in an earnest argument, and I would argue one should, the one cannot have "their own collection of facts," in this scenario.
If I am always of the opinion that 1] my own values are rooted in dasein and 2] that there are no objective values "I" can reach, then every time I make one particular moral/political leap, I am admitting that I might have gone in the other direction...or that I might just as well have gone in the other direction. Then "I" begins to fracture and fragment to the point there is nothing able to actually keep it all together. At least not with respect to choosing sides morally and politically.
The fact is the powers that be in both America and in Iraq were able to indoctrinate millions of their own citizens not only to believe that the terrorists could be named but that their own name for them was in fact the objective truth.
Just as to the extent to which political forces in America are able to convince citizens that those who stormed the Capitol were either terrorists or patriots, brand new "actions" can be planned and carried out.
Or are you but one more poster here who is able to pin down the dimwits. Those who don't think as you do about the assault on the Capitol. The fulminating fanatics on the right as I call them.
And the extent to which in regard to this and to every other example of "conflicting goods" my own "I" is "fractured and fragmented".
All I can do therefore is to search out those who do not think and feel this way in regard to their own moral and political value judgments. One of them might actually allow me to yank myself up out of the hole I'm in.
d0rkyd00d wrote:Gloominary wrote:d0rkyd00d wrote:That's the issue, you're unsure of a lot of things, you admittedly "haven't looked into it much."
It's not a very interesting foundation on which to engage.
But you're not sure the contrary is true, are you?
How thoroughly have you examined the evidence for yourself?
Are you sure the supreme court did a thorough investigation of the matter before ruling it out?
Or did they barely give it the time of day?
I'm sure the contrary is very unlikely. You speak from ignorance, then project it onto others.
I'm not here to think for you. I have done the research, I have looked at the evidence. Part of that process involved me gaining a better understanding of the U.S. Constitution, reading the court decisions, listening to the "testimony" of those who claim there was wrongdoing, and the various responses from GOP Congressmen and Trump & associates.
Meanwhile, I suspect you sit on your flabby pancake ass, drinking in bitchute videos and OANN, thinking you're forming an educated opinion after looking exclusively at propaganda and rhetoric, putting your trust in others to have done the research before sharing their opinion with you.
How close does that come to reality?
d0rkyd00d wrote:The fact is the powers that be in both America and in Iraq were able to indoctrinate millions of their own citizens not only to believe that the terrorists could be named but that their own name for them was in fact the objective truth.
Just as to the extent to which political forces in America are able to convince citizens that those who stormed the Capitol were either terrorists or patriots, brand new "actions" can be planned and carried out.
Or are you but one more poster here who is able to pin down the dimwits. Those who don't think as you do about the assault on the Capitol. The fulminating fanatics on the right as I call them.
And you don't think the majority are dimwitted, or at the very least, uneducated in critical thought?
And the extent to which in regard to this and to every other example of "conflicting goods" my own "I" is "fractured and fragmented".
All I can do therefore is to search out those who do not think and feel this way in regard to their own moral and political value judgments. One of them might actually allow me to yank myself up out of the hole I'm in.
d0rkyd00d wrote: Yes I've noticed you keep referring back to your "fractured and fragmented" state, and referring back to the threads you've created in your signature to justify your position. So you'll have to forgive my skepticism that you aren't already too deep in your own hole to be pulled out.
d0rkyd00d wrote: Admittedly I have little interest, based on what you've said so far to go and actually explore your line of argumentation, especially given that you've already disregarded my point about your argument ad ignorantiam, or the importance of defining terms. Will you simply be referring any critique to your comments back to your signature posts?
Again, all I can do is to ask those who do not feel drawn and quartered in regard to their own moral and political value judgments, to explain to me why they are not. Most of course cite one or another objectivist font -- God, political ideology, deontology, nature etc.
And then there is Karpel Tunnel. Like me, he does not believe in either God or objective morality.
As for squabbles over the definition of words like ignorant and terrorist and patriot, I ask those who are adamant about it to bring their own definitions down out of the "intellectual contraption" clouds and apply them to the storming of the Capitol.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
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