Ruminating on a current religion

Discussion of the recent unfolding of history.

Ruminating on a current religion

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sat Jan 02, 2021 6:22 pm

reading the various right/left dichotomy that exists on ILP right
now is an interesting exercise.....those on the right have been
attacking the left and that is to be expected, but I wish I could call
them straw men attacks, but they don't even fit that category...

they are basically wish fulfillments that the right holds about the left
and have no basis in reality...to attack wish fulfillments is really attacking
someone dreams and fantasies.. which is all the right have in regards to their
attacks on the left...wishes and fantasy's...

but let us take this another direction.... let us call the right wing
obsession for what it is, they have turned their version of republicanism
into a religion with IQ45 being the messiah and god, all wrap up into one.....

as with any religion, it is one that is taken on faith... for there is no evidence
that IQ45 is anything more then a conman... and he is taking his sheep for
a ride by asking them to "donate" to his legal fund.... and that is all IQ45 cares
about... money, money and making more money.....some god/messiah... only
cares about making money for himself...

but what I find to be fascinating is the fact that the "believers" don't defend their
religion by pointing out what is better or superior about their religion....
but they spend their days attacking what they perceive to be competing
and rival religions...they spend their days attacking the left and
the "deep state" and other fantasies they have, which includes what the
constitution actually means...

they spend their days demanding that we overthrow the constitution
and democracy to put their savior in place.. but they never give
us any reason to do so..... in other words, it can be shown by
any number of metrics that Obama was a vastly better president...
and it can be shown by any number of metrics that IQ45 is indeed the
single worst president in America history....so why should we keep
a complete and absolute failure as president?

they never tell us.....and they have no reasons, believable ones anyway,
to keep IQ45 as president...they defy the evidence to hold onto a faith,
a belief.... that is a religion kids....

and so the Kids who populate ILP and denounce the left are actually
holding onto a religion, a faith, a belief... and there is no point to
argue with or hold a discussion with anyone of this "kind" of faith...
because you can never, ever change their minds..... offer them
facts and evidence and the facts and evidence is proclaimed to
be "fake news".... and their truths are the only real and believable evidence
but ask yourself, what is their facts and evidence?

to believe in their facts and evidence, (and mind you I use those words loosely
because the right doesn't believe in facts, evidence, experts, science, logic,
rationality, reality, details, coherence, or connections)

to hold to the right wing vision of reality one has to dispense with facts, logic,
science, experts, reality, rationality, coherence, and evidence....
only faith and belief is valued in the right wing...
don't believe me, notice that the KIDS around here have all admitted to
not believing in science or facts or evidence or rationality or experts.....

theirs is a religion and nothing more....
and that is fine to hold a religion but don't force us non-believers
to hold to your religion.....81 million voters voted for Biden/Harris....
and that they should by all rights be the next president and vice-president
is clear to anyone who isn't married to the right wing religion...


ok, so let us try this.... without talking about liberals or your usual
hate-filled explanations of the world...... tell us why we should join
your religion? why should we hold that IQ45 is the god/messiah and we
should worship as you do? why should we abandon our use of logic
and rationality and science and facts and join you in your world of
faith and belief?

try to convert us into your religion....

Kropotkin
PK IS EVIL.....
Peter Kropotkin
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Posts: 8924
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Location: blue state

Re: Ruminating on a current religion

Postby d0rkyd00d » Tue Jan 05, 2021 7:37 pm

Your post reminds me of Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism: A Study of "Brainwashing" in China by Robert Jay Lifton. Does any of this sound familiar?

Milieu Control. This involves the control of information and communication both within the environment and, ultimately, within the individual, resulting in a significant degree of isolation from society at large.

Mystical Manipulation. The manipulation of experiences that appears spontaneous but is, in fact, planned and orchestrated by the group or its leaders to demonstrate divine authority, spiritual advancement, or some exceptional talent or insight that sets the leader and/or group apart from humanity, and that allows a reinterpretation of historical events, scripture, and other experiences. Coincidences and happenstance oddities are interpreted as omens or prophecies.

Demand for Purity. The world is viewed as black and white and the members are constantly exhorted to conform to the ideology of the group and strive for perfection. The induction of guilt and/or shame is a powerful control device used here.
Confession. Sins, as defined by the group, are to be confessed either to a personal monitor or publicly to the group. There is no confidentiality; members' "sins," "attitudes," and "faults" are discussed and exploited by the leaders.

Sacred Science. The group's doctrine or ideology is considered to be the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or dispute. Truth is not to be found outside the group. The leader, as the spokesperson for God or all humanity, is likewise above criticism.

Loading the Language. The group interprets or uses words and phrases in new ways so that often the outside world does not understand. This jargon consists of thought-terminating clichés, which serve to alter members' thought processes to conform to the group's way of thinking.

Doctrine over person. Members' personal experiences are subordinated to the sacred science and any contrary experiences must be denied or reinterpreted to fit the ideology of the group.

Dispensing of existence. The group has the prerogative to decide who has the right to exist and who does not. This is usually not literal but means that those in the outside world are not saved, unenlightened, unconscious, and must be converted to the group's ideology. If they do not join the group or are critical of the group, then they must be rejected by the members. Thus, the outside world loses all credibility. In conjunction, should any member leave the group, he or she must be rejected also
"So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent, and will devote themselves in the name of any number of gods, religious and otherwise, to put shackles upon sleeping men." -Voltaire

"If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do."
-Bertrand Russell
d0rkyd00d
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Re: Ruminating on a current religion

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Jan 05, 2021 7:47 pm

d0rkyd00d wrote:Your post reminds me of Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism: A Study of "Brainwashing" in China by Robert Jay Lifton. Does any of this sound familiar?

Milieu Control. This involves the control of information and communication both within the environment and, ultimately, within the individual, resulting in a significant degree of isolation from society at large.

Mystical Manipulation. The manipulation of experiences that appears spontaneous but is, in fact, planned and orchestrated by the group or its leaders to demonstrate divine authority, spiritual advancement, or some exceptional talent or insight that sets the leader and/or group apart from humanity, and that allows a reinterpretation of historical events, scripture, and other experiences. Coincidences and happenstance oddities are interpreted as omens or prophecies.

Demand for Purity. The world is viewed as black and white and the members are constantly exhorted to conform to the ideology of the group and strive for perfection. The induction of guilt and/or shame is a powerful control device used here.
Confession. Sins, as defined by the group, are to be confessed either to a personal monitor or publicly to the group. There is no confidentiality; members' "sins," "attitudes," and "faults" are discussed and exploited by the leaders.

Sacred Science. The group's doctrine or ideology is considered to be the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or dispute. Truth is not to be found outside the group. The leader, as the spokesperson for God or all humanity, is likewise above criticism.

Loading the Language. The group interprets or uses words and phrases in new ways so that often the outside world does not understand. This jargon consists of thought-terminating clichés, which serve to alter members' thought processes to conform to the group's way of thinking.

Doctrine over person. Members' personal experiences are subordinated to the sacred science and any contrary experiences must be denied or reinterpreted to fit the ideology of the group.

Dispensing of existence. The group has the prerogative to decide who has the right to exist and who does not. This is usually not literal but means that those in the outside world are not saved, unenlightened, unconscious, and must be converted to the group's ideology. If they do not join the group or are critical of the group, then they must be rejected by the members. Thus, the outside world loses all credibility. In conjunction, should any member leave the group, he or she must be rejected also


K: I have not heard of that book or that writer...
I rarely ever read current or contemporary books... my reading list
tends to end around 1940.... although I admit the current book I am reading,
"Discovering the mind" by Kaufmann, VO 2.... is from 1980....
practically yesterday in terms of what I normally read...

as to the points, yes, it does sound familiar...most religions have a
clause in it about rejecting members who don't toe the party line....
the GOP being a religion, has the exact same clause... obey or
be rejected... in fact, in its test for purity, the current GOP
party would reject Ronald Raygun as being impure and not conservative
enough...it might also reject someone like Barry Goldwater for not
being pure enough....and that is saying something.....

thanks for bringing this up.... I shall attempt to find time to read this
book... after reading the 125 books I already have lined up to read...

Kropotkin
PK IS EVIL.....
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 8924
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: Ruminating on a current religion

Postby d0rkyd00d » Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:05 pm

Haha, that's quite a reading list! :-D

I actually stumbled across it soon after I was "freed" from the religious cult I was raised in, pretty much nails all of the facets of their doctrine, and why it was so difficult to leave.
"So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent, and will devote themselves in the name of any number of gods, religious and otherwise, to put shackles upon sleeping men." -Voltaire

"If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do."
-Bertrand Russell
d0rkyd00d
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2985
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:37 pm

Re: Ruminating on a current religion

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:30 pm

d0rkyd00d wrote:Haha, that's quite a reading list! :-D

I actually stumbled across it soon after I was "freed" from the religious cult I was raised in, pretty much nails all of the facets of their doctrine, and why it was so difficult to leave.


K: and being an escapee from a "religious cult"
means you can see how the "kids" are victims of a political cult,
the Trumpist cult... or the conservative cult called the GOP....

and I am glad you had the courage to think for yourself and escape...
it takes courage to do so...

Kropotkin
PK IS EVIL.....
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 8924
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: Ruminating on a current religion

Postby d0rkyd00d » Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:08 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote:
d0rkyd00d wrote:Haha, that's quite a reading list! :-D

I actually stumbled across it soon after I was "freed" from the religious cult I was raised in, pretty much nails all of the facets of their doctrine, and why it was so difficult to leave.


K: and being an escapee from a "religious cult"
means you can see how the "kids" are victims of a political cult,
the Trumpist cult... or the conservative cult called the GOP....

and I am glad you had the courage to think for yourself and escape...
it takes courage to do so...

Kropotkin


Yes, leaving is EXTREMELY difficult. Fortunately I was able to leave with my entire family intact, not everybody is so lucky.

In some cases, people will pay money to have members of their family abducted and isolated in a hotel for a few weeks to attempt to "deprogram" them. I can understand their frustration. And I cannot speak to the efficacy of such tactics, but I don't think it'd work on a crowd of 74MM.

I came back to these forums hoping for the same kind of stimulating conversation in politics that I enjoyed in the philosophy forums, so it was quite disappointing to return to all of the ad homs and vapid arguments that have settled in here.
"So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent, and will devote themselves in the name of any number of gods, religious and otherwise, to put shackles upon sleeping men." -Voltaire

"If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do."
-Bertrand Russell
d0rkyd00d
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2985
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:37 pm

Re: Ruminating on a current religion

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:51 pm

d0rkyd00d wrote:
Peter Kropotkin wrote:
d0rkyd00d wrote:Haha, that's quite a reading list! :-D

I actually stumbled across it soon after I was "freed" from the religious cult I was raised in, pretty much nails all of the facets of their doctrine, and why it was so difficult to leave.


K: and being an escapee from a "religious cult"
means you can see how the "kids" are victims of a political cult,
the Trumpist cult... or the conservative cult called the GOP....

and I am glad you had the courage to think for yourself and escape...
it takes courage to do so...

Kropotkin


Yes, leaving is EXTREMELY difficult. Fortunately I was able to leave with my entire family intact, not everybody is so lucky.

In some cases, people will pay money to have members of their family abducted and isolated in a hotel for a few weeks to attempt to "deprogram" them. I can understand their frustration. And I cannot speak to the efficacy of such tactics, but I don't think it'd work on a crowd of 74MM.

I came back to these forums hoping for the same kind of stimulating conversation in politics that I enjoyed in the philosophy forums, so it was quite disappointing to return to all of the ad homs and vapid arguments that have settled in here.


K: and I can emphasize with your disappointment... but we can raise the bar on the site
by our engagement with a discussion of what it means to be human..... not with some
stale discussion of overthrowing the government.....

the political can be spoken with as having a value no lower then the philosophical
if we engage in the political with the same piety we use to discuss
the philosophical.....in other words.... how does the political inform
our understanding of what it means to be human?

the political is just another aspect of what it means to be human,
just as science and economics and poly sci, can educate us
as to what it means to be human and what is next?

so, raise the bar on the discussion....explore the truth and what it
is and what it means to you?

or not and discuss something that works for you.....

don't let the low level of discourse discourage you... raise it by
an engagement with what matters to you.....

Kropotkin
PK IS EVIL.....
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 8924
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state


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