freedom and the coronavirus

Discussion of the recent unfolding of history.

freedom and the coronavirus

Postby iambiguous » Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:09 pm

Freedom to
Freedom from

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/22/opin ... masks.html

But you also see a lot of libertarian rhetoric — a lot of talk about “freedom” and “personal responsibility.” Even politicians willing to say that people should cover their faces and avoid indoor gatherings refuse to use their power to impose rules to that effect, insisting that it should be a matter of individual choice.

Which is nonsense.

Many things should be matters of individual choice. The government has no business dictating your cultural tastes, your faith or what you decide to do with other consenting adults.

But refusing to wear a face covering during a pandemic, or insisting on mingling indoors with large groups, isn’t like following the church of your choice. It’s more like dumping raw sewage into a reservoir that supplies other people’s drinking water.


Ah, the real world!

You demand the freedom to choose!

* to wear or not to wear a mask
* to gather in crowds oblivious to social distancing

And, if in so doing, you get the virus or pass it along to others, that's the price we pay for living in a free country. And, all those folks who focus instead on sustaining their freedom from being around people like that? They're Un-American. Communists probably.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: freedom and the coronavirus

Postby Gloominary » Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:16 pm

You gonna let Dr Faucistein give you the first of its kind RNA altering vaccine IAM?

You gonna let em turn you into a genetically modified organism...a mutie?

An RNA vaccine or mRNA (messenger RNA) vaccine is a new type of vaccine for providing acquired immunity through an mRNA encoding target antigens, either viral or cancer. The mRNA is often incorporated in a delivery vehicle, such as lipid nanoparticles, to improve its stability and facilitate its uptake by cells.[1] As of November 2020, no mRNA vaccine, or technology platform, has ever been approved for use in humans.[2] mRNA vaccines operate in a completely different manner from traditional vaccines. Rather than stimulating an antibody response by injecting a human with antigens (proteins or peptides), an attenuated virus, or a recombinant antigen-encoding viral vector, the RNA sequence of an RNA vaccine is directly taken up by cells which then produce viral antigens that stimulate an adaptive immune response, resulting in the production new antibodies which will bind to the antigen and activate T-cells that recognize specific peptides presented on MHC molecules.

As of November 2020, there are two novel mRNA-vaccines awaiting emergency use authorization as COVID-19 vaccines, from Moderna and BioNTech.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA_vaccine
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Re: freedom and the coronavirus

Postby obsrvr524 » Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:29 pm

Still reading toilet paper tissue - NYT.
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Re: freedom and the coronavirus

Postby Gloominary » Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:53 pm

to gather in crowds oblivious to social distancing

You mean like Antifa and BLM riots during lockdown?
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Re: freedom and the coronavirus

Postby Gloominary » Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:26 am

How bout we let individuals determine what sort of danger, if any, this thing poses to themselves and those around them, and how best to deal with it, rather than imposing a one-size-fits-all, top-down assessment of and response to it?
Are some individuals oblivious to the threat?
Or are they rightfully skeptical of its existence or severity?
Or are many of the sacrifices we're asking many of them to make too great, or counterproductive?
Who're the technocrats to say your livelihood, church service or social function is inessential?
Why're we ruining young, and old peoples' lives to supposedly give sickly seniors a slight extension of their lifespan, assuming imprisoning them in nursing homes doesn't shorten their lifespan instead?
Is quality of life not equally important?
Does quality not affect quantity?
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Re: freedom and the coronavirus

Postby iambiguous » Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:36 am

Gloominary wrote:You gonna let Dr Faucistein give you the first of its kind RNA altering vaccine IAM?

You gonna let em turn you into a genetically modified organism...a mutie?

An RNA vaccine or mRNA (messenger RNA) vaccine is a new type of vaccine for providing acquired immunity through an mRNA encoding target antigens, either viral or cancer. The mRNA is often incorporated in a delivery vehicle, such as lipid nanoparticles, to improve its stability and facilitate its uptake by cells.[1] As of November 2020, no mRNA vaccine, or technology platform, has ever been approved for use in humans.[2] mRNA vaccines operate in a completely different manner from traditional vaccines. Rather than stimulating an antibody response by injecting a human with antigens (proteins or peptides), an attenuated virus, or a recombinant antigen-encoding viral vector, the RNA sequence of an RNA vaccine is directly taken up by cells which then produce viral antigens that stimulate an adaptive immune response, resulting in the production new antibodies which will bind to the antigen and activate T-cells that recognize specific peptides presented on MHC molecules.

As of November 2020, there are two novel mRNA-vaccines awaiting emergency use authorization as COVID-19 vaccines, from Moderna and BioNTech.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA_vaccine


I'm a vet. I get my healthcare through the VA. So, when they notify me that a vaccine is available, I'll role the dice and get the shot.

Perhaps because, unlike some, I don't pretend to know the absolute truth about vaccines.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: freedom and the coronavirus

Postby iambiguous » Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:41 am

obsrvr524 wrote:Still reading toilet paper tissue - NYT.


Look, I've tried to inform you of just how insufferably vapid, tedious, feckless your knee-jerk harangues are. As have others.

Really, trust me, if there was a God, He'd say the same thing. 8)
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: freedom and the coronavirus

Postby Gloominary » Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:49 am

iambiguous wrote:
Gloominary wrote:You gonna let Dr Faucistein give you the first of its kind RNA altering vaccine IAM?

You gonna let em turn you into a genetically modified organism...a mutie?

An RNA vaccine or mRNA (messenger RNA) vaccine is a new type of vaccine for providing acquired immunity through an mRNA encoding target antigens, either viral or cancer. The mRNA is often incorporated in a delivery vehicle, such as lipid nanoparticles, to improve its stability and facilitate its uptake by cells.[1] As of November 2020, no mRNA vaccine, or technology platform, has ever been approved for use in humans.[2] mRNA vaccines operate in a completely different manner from traditional vaccines. Rather than stimulating an antibody response by injecting a human with antigens (proteins or peptides), an attenuated virus, or a recombinant antigen-encoding viral vector, the RNA sequence of an RNA vaccine is directly taken up by cells which then produce viral antigens that stimulate an adaptive immune response, resulting in the production new antibodies which will bind to the antigen and activate T-cells that recognize specific peptides presented on MHC molecules.

As of November 2020, there are two novel mRNA-vaccines awaiting emergency use authorization as COVID-19 vaccines, from Moderna and BioNTech.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA_vaccine


I'm a vet. I get my healthcare through the VA. So, when they notify me that a vaccine is available, I'll role the dice and get the shot.

Perhaps because, unlike some, I don't pretend to know the absolute truth about vaccines.

That's your right.

I'm not taking any vaccine, let alone a first of its kind, highly experimental, RNA altering one.

I won't be pharma or Gates's guinea pig.
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Re: freedom and the coronavirus

Postby iambiguous » Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:59 am

Gloominary wrote:
I'm not taking any vaccine, let alone a first of its kind, highly experimental, RNA altering one.

I won't be pharma or Gates's guinea pig.


Okay, fine.

But, for others, their own "set of circumstances" [age, prior or current health conditions, exposure to the public etc.] may give them more incentive to get it.

Also, if someone refuses to get vaccinated, gets infected with the virus, passes it on to another and that person gets sick and dies?

Just shrug it off as acceptable? You know, given the inherent value ever and always attached to your own sacred "personal freedom"?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: freedom and the coronavirus

Postby Gloominary » Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:17 am

iambiguous wrote:
Gloominary wrote:You gonna let Dr Faucistein give you the first of its kind RNA altering vaccine IAM?

You gonna let em turn you into a genetically modified organism...a mutie?

An RNA vaccine or mRNA (messenger RNA) vaccine is a new type of vaccine for providing acquired immunity through an mRNA encoding target antigens, either viral or cancer. The mRNA is often incorporated in a delivery vehicle, such as lipid nanoparticles, to improve its stability and facilitate its uptake by cells.[1] As of November 2020, no mRNA vaccine, or technology platform, has ever been approved for use in humans.[2] mRNA vaccines operate in a completely different manner from traditional vaccines. Rather than stimulating an antibody response by injecting a human with antigens (proteins or peptides), an attenuated virus, or a recombinant antigen-encoding viral vector, the RNA sequence of an RNA vaccine is directly taken up by cells which then produce viral antigens that stimulate an adaptive immune response, resulting in the production new antibodies which will bind to the antigen and activate T-cells that recognize specific peptides presented on MHC molecules.

As of November 2020, there are two novel mRNA-vaccines awaiting emergency use authorization as COVID-19 vaccines, from Moderna and BioNTech.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA_vaccine


I'm a vet. I get my healthcare through the VA. So, when they notify me that a vaccine is available, I'll role the dice and get the shot.

Perhaps because, unlike some, I don't pretend to know the absolute truth about vaccines.

I don't know the absolute truth about anything, I think in probabilities, plausibilities and possibilities.

I'm sure for some, the (apparent) scientific consensus is an absolute, it isn't, nothing is.

Some are completely oblivious to the on record dangers vaccines pose, dangers vaccine companies think you don't need to know about.

If they knew, they may not take them.
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Re: freedom and the coronavirus

Postby Gloominary » Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:59 am

iambiguous wrote:
Gloominary wrote:
I'm not taking any vaccine, let alone a first of its kind, highly experimental, RNA altering one.

I won't be pharma or Gates's guinea pig.


Okay, fine.

But, for others, their own "set of circumstances" [age, prior or current health conditions, exposure to the public etc.] may give them more incentive to get it.

Also, if someone refuses to get vaccinated, gets infected with the virus, passes it on to another and that person gets sick and dies?

Just shrug it off as acceptable? You know, given the inherent value ever and always attached to your own sacred "personal freedom"?

From what I gather, big pharma privatizes its profits from selling vaccines, and nationalizes its losses from vaccine injuries, otherwise vaccines wouldn't be profitable, I don't think that's acceptable.

I don't think it's acceptable to say force a perfectly healthy girl to risk vaccine injury because they're worried she may give a virus to grandpa, or to sacrifice her school and social life.

Government can help grandpa isolate himself at home until he thinks it's safe to come out, if he's that worried about it.

The way you put personal freedom in quotations makes me think like you have little or no respect for the freedom thousands of men and women shed blood for.

I'm glad we have that freedom, that we're not ruled by a handful of theocrats, or technocrats.
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Re: freedom and the coronavirus

Postby iambiguous » Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:00 pm

Gloominary wrote:I don't know the absolute truth about anything, I think in probabilities, plausibilities and possibilities.


Same here. But then there is still how we think about what we do claim to know.

Now, in regard to the covid vaccine, there is whatever facts that can be established about it. Knowing that in the capitalist political economy the medical industrial complex is going to be motivated first and foremost to skew the facts in the general direction of what is most profitable for them. Though here, if the vaccine turns out to be the cure worse than the disease, the lawsuits alone might be calamitous for them.

Is the vaccine safe? Well, no vaccine will ever be entirely safe. And then there is how different individuals react to it given the parameters of their own congenital, biological makeup.

Given that, each of us has to decide, taking into account our own unique situation, whether getting the shots [two I believe] is riskier than getting the virus. The government in each nation will either do more or less to determine the relative safety of the vaccine.

The "scientific consensus", in my view, can only revolve around the extent to which health scientists are permitted to test the vaccine, without having any monetary stake in their conclusions.
Last edited by iambiguous on Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
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Re: freedom and the coronavirus

Postby iambiguous » Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:21 pm

Gloominary wrote: I'm not taking any vaccine, let alone a first of its kind, highly experimental, RNA altering one.

I won't be pharma or Gates's guinea pig.


iambiguous wrote:Okay, fine.

But, for others, their own "set of circumstances" [age, prior or current health conditions, exposure to the public etc.] may give them more incentive to get it.

Also, if someone refuses to get vaccinated, gets infected with the virus, passes it on to another and that person gets sick and dies?

Just shrug it off as acceptable? You know, given the inherent value ever and always attached to your own sacred "personal freedom"?


Gloominary wrote:From what I gather, big pharma privatizes its profits from selling vaccines, and nationalizes its losses from vaccine injuries, otherwise vaccines wouldn't be profitable, I don't think that's acceptable.


Well, there is always the socialist alternative.

But if someone is sticking with capitalism they had better organize with others politically to do what they can to rein in crony capitalism. Because as long as elections revolve around the "show me the money" interest of Wall Street and K Street [here in America], don't expect much to change.

Gloominary wrote: I don't think it's acceptable to say force a perfectly healthy girl to risk vaccine injury because they're worried she may give a virus to grandpa, or to sacrifice her school and social life.


Yeah, with children things become considerably more problematic. Each parent has to roll the dice. Or, if the government requires vaccines, roll the dice in refusing there. But the children themselves don't get to make an "informed consent". But in part because they are just kids.

Looking at the historical timeline for vaccines -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_ ... n_vaccines -- you can pick your disease and argue that the world would have been better off without vaccines for them.

Gloominary wrote: The way you put personal freedom in quotations makes me think like you have little or no respect for the freedom thousands of men and women shed blood for.


That was an exercise in irony. Noting how those who insist their freedom not to wear masks or to social distance is embraced by some as though the freedom of those who risks the consequence of those behaviors don't count.

Gloominary wrote: I'm glad we have that freedom, that we're not ruled by a handful of theocrats, or technocrats.


Right, like those in the government who require citizens in certain sets of circumstances to wear masks or social distance or get a vaccine are the equivalent of them.

And that the points that Krugman makes in his op-ed are not nearly as relevant.
Last edited by iambiguous on Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: freedom and the coronavirus

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:36 pm

Gloominary wrote:How bout we let individuals determine what sort of danger, if any, this thing poses to themselves and those around them, and how best to deal with it, rather than imposing a one-size-fits-all, top-down assessment of and response to it?
Are some individuals oblivious to the threat?
Or are they rightfully skeptical of its existence or severity?
Or are many of the sacrifices we're asking many of them to make too great, or counterproductive?
Who're the technocrats to say your livelihood, church service or social function is inessential?
Why're we ruining young, and old peoples' lives to supposedly give sickly seniors a slight extension of their lifespan, assuming imprisoning them in nursing homes doesn't shorten their lifespan instead?
Is quality of life not equally important?
Does quality not affect quantity?


K: ah, just a long way about saying, you don't give a shit about anybody but
yourself... and if everyone died, hay, more land for me......

in case you hadn't noticed, you cannot survive by your own actions....
you need, no must have a social network around you to survive as
a human being... there is no other possibility...we are not islands upon
ourselves...that is a fact jack.....

what you have done is nothing more then solipsism....
I am the only being to exists in the universe...
I am an individual and nothing else matters in the universe...

and what of your obligation to the others in society?

do you deny you have any obligation to others in the society
that keeps you alive?

you say one size fits all science fails? no, no it doesn't.....

it is why you are alive today....the vaccines that you have had or your
parents had, are why you are alive today....if there had been a German
measles vaccine when I was born, I wouldn't have lost my hearing...

millions of people have been saved from a wide variety of illness such
as polio and measles and smallpox.. you would have of course, denied them
their vaccines because you are above such things as caring about the society
around you or you hold pretensions of being an "individual", not part of the
"sheep" herd you believe lives around you.....

those technocrats you decry are the very ones who have saved
millions upon millions of lives including yours....

talk about biting the hand that feeds you.....

for vaccines to be effective, you have to vaccinate everyone or
it doesn't work.. you cannot vaccinate some and hope to
prevent deaths of millions... vaccinations are pretty much
an all or nothing proposition...you cannot vaccinates some
and hope to eradicate illnesses like Covid.....

so, what make you so special that you are above the rest of us?

are you a god or a special human being that is above us?

and you don't need to care about anyone else but yourself?

when the only, THE ONLY way you can survive today, is by
being part of the whole, part of society, part of the state....

so, pray tell,.... why are you so special?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: freedom and the coronavirus

Postby iambiguous » Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:36 pm

Speaking of vaccines, why still nothing for HIV?

One take on it:

https://leapsmag.com/why-havent-researc ... particle-3

Or will some here pounce on this as a "classic example" of me going "off-topic"?

"Derailing" my own thread, perhaps?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: freedom and the coronavirus

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:01 pm

iambiguous wrote:Speaking of vaccines, why still nothing for HIV?

One take on it:

https://leapsmag.com/why-havent-researc ... particle-3

Or will some here pounce on this as a "classic example" of me going "off-topic"?

"Derailing" my own thread, perhaps?


K: to answer this does require one to go "offthread" but the facts are
about vaccines is that big pharma only goes after big money diseases....
and it is never about finding a cure... for finding a cure, kills the golden egg...

for example, I have high blood pressure and I take pills for that...
but if I was "cured" then they couldn't keep on making butt loads of
money off of my disease.. Big pharma only makes medicines that allows
them to make money....hence, no real cure for HIV because it would
prevent them from making money...

I am fairly sure there is a cure for cancer, but to have a cure for
cancer means that a whole lot of people would miss out on making
profits on people having the disease.... you would take away billions of
dollars of profits, including Big Pharma, so you simply go on
treating the illness which makes more money then simply finding
a cure....

follow the money and the answer is always found....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: freedom and the coronavirus

Postby Gloominary » Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:13 pm

iambiguous wrote:
Gloominary wrote:I don't know the absolute truth about anything, I think in probabilities, plausibilities and possibilities.


Same here. But then there is still how we think about what we do claim to know.

Now, in regard to the covid vaccine, there is whatever facts that can be established about it. Knowing that in the capitalist political economy the medical industrial complex is going to be motivated first and foremost to skew the facts in the general direction of what is most profitable for them. Though here, if the vaccine turns out to be the cure worse than the disease, the lawsuits alone might be calamitous for them.

Is the vaccine safe? Well, no vaccine will ever be entirely safe. And then there is how different individuals react to it given the parameters of their own congenital, biological makeup.

Given that, each of us has to decide, taking into account our own unique situation, whether getting the shots [two I believe] is riskier than getting the virus. The government in each nation will either do more or less to determine the relative safety of the vaccine.

The "scientific consensus", in my view, can only revolve around the extent to which health scientists are permitted to test the vaccine, without having any monetary stake in their conclusions.

I don't disagree.
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Re: freedom and the coronavirus

Postby Gloominary » Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:20 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote:
iambiguous wrote:Speaking of vaccines, why still nothing for HIV?

One take on it:

https://leapsmag.com/why-havent-researc ... particle-3

Or will some here pounce on this as a "classic example" of me going "off-topic"?

"Derailing" my own thread, perhaps?


K: to answer this does require one to go "offthread" but the facts are
about vaccines is that big pharma only goes after big money diseases....
and it is never about finding a cure... for finding a cure, kills the golden egg...

for example, I have high blood pressure and I take pills for that...
but if I was "cured" then they couldn't keep on making butt loads of
money off of my disease.. Big pharma only makes medicines that allows
them to make money....hence, no real cure for HIV because it would
prevent them from making money...

I am fairly sure there is a cure for cancer, but to have a cure for
cancer means that a whole lot of people would miss out on making
profits on people having the disease.... you would take away billions of
dollars of profits, including Big Pharma, so you simply go on
treating the illness which makes more money then simply finding
a cure....

follow the money and the answer is always found....

Kropotkin

This is a conspiracy theory.
I thought you and your ilk didn't entertain that sort of thing?
I have a conspiracy theory about the pharmaceutical industry of my own, and that is improvements in nutrition and waste management, particularly in urban areas, not so much in the countryside, are by and large what eradicated or reduced many diseases at the turn of the 20th century, not vaccines.
I think the benefits from vaccines, and antibiotics, and drugs, are vastly exaggerated and the detriments vastly downplayed, meanwhile the benefits of nutrition, herbalism and detoxification are vastly downplayed, it's probably no coincidence many diseases from autism to cancer have been on the rise for decades.
I know people in my personal life who swear they or their children were injured by a vaccine.
And thousands of naturopaths (and some allopaths), nutritionists and the millions of people who swear by them agree with me.
The courts pay out billions of dollars to people injured by vaccines every year, even tho they're rigged in the pharmaceutical industry's favor, they'd probably pay out even more if they weren't, meanwhile mainstream allopathy, compromised by the pharmaceutical industry as it is, at least in part, continues to minimize the danger.
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Re: freedom and the coronavirus

Postby Gloominary » Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:00 am

Peter Kropotkin wrote:
Gloominary wrote:How bout we let individuals determine what sort of danger, if any, this thing poses to themselves and those around them, and how best to deal with it, rather than imposing a one-size-fits-all, top-down assessment of and response to it?
Are some individuals oblivious to the threat?
Or are they rightfully skeptical of its existence or severity?
Or are many of the sacrifices we're asking many of them to make too great, or counterproductive?
Who're the technocrats to say your livelihood, church service or social function is inessential?
Why're we ruining young, and old peoples' lives to supposedly give sickly seniors a slight extension of their lifespan, assuming imprisoning them in nursing homes doesn't shorten their lifespan instead?
Is quality of life not equally important?
Does quality not affect quantity?


K: ah, just a long way about saying, you don't give a shit about anybody but
yourself... and if everyone died, hay, more land for me......

in case you hadn't noticed, you cannot survive by your own actions....
you need, no must have a social network around you to survive as
a human being... there is no other possibility...we are not islands upon
ourselves...that is a fact jack.....

what you have done is nothing more then solipsism....
I am the only being to exists in the universe...
I am an individual and nothing else matters in the universe...

and what of your obligation to the others in society?

do you deny you have any obligation to others in the society
that keeps you alive?

you say one size fits all science fails? no, no it doesn't.....

it is why you are alive today....the vaccines that you have had or your
parents had, are why you are alive today....if there had been a German
measles vaccine when I was born, I wouldn't have lost my hearing...

millions of people have been saved from a wide variety of illness such
as polio and measles and smallpox.. you would have of course, denied them
their vaccines because you are above such things as caring about the society
around you or you hold pretensions of being an "individual", not part of the
"sheep" herd you believe lives around you.....

those technocrats you decry are the very ones who have saved
millions upon millions of lives including yours....

talk about biting the hand that feeds you.....

for vaccines to be effective, you have to vaccinate everyone or
it doesn't work.. you cannot vaccinate some and hope to
prevent deaths of millions... vaccinations are pretty much
an all or nothing proposition...you cannot vaccinates some
and hope to eradicate illnesses like Covid.....

so, what make you so special that you are above the rest of us?

are you a god or a special human being that is above us?

and you don't need to care about anyone else but yourself?

when the only, THE ONLY way you can survive today, is by
being part of the whole, part of society, part of the state....

so, pray tell,.... why are you so special?

Kropotkin

Yea, people who take conservative or libertarian positions are evil, people who take progressive positions are good, how thoughtful and nuanced.
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Re: freedom and the coronavirus

Postby Gloominary » Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:39 am

Gloominary wrote:
Peter Kropotkin wrote:
iambiguous wrote:Speaking of vaccines, why still nothing for HIV?

One take on it:

https://leapsmag.com/why-havent-researc ... particle-3

Or will some here pounce on this as a "classic example" of me going "off-topic"?

"Derailing" my own thread, perhaps?


K: to answer this does require one to go "offthread" but the facts are
about vaccines is that big pharma only goes after big money diseases....
and it is never about finding a cure... for finding a cure, kills the golden egg...

for example, I have high blood pressure and I take pills for that...
but if I was "cured" then they couldn't keep on making butt loads of
money off of my disease.. Big pharma only makes medicines that allows
them to make money....hence, no real cure for HIV because it would
prevent them from making money...

I am fairly sure there is a cure for cancer, but to have a cure for
cancer means that a whole lot of people would miss out on making
profits on people having the disease.... you would take away billions of
dollars of profits, including Big Pharma, so you simply go on
treating the illness which makes more money then simply finding
a cure....

follow the money and the answer is always found....

Kropotkin

This is a conspiracy theory.
I thought you and your ilk didn't entertain that sort of thing?
I have a conspiracy theory about the pharmaceutical industry of my own, and that is improvements in nutrition and waste management, particularly in urban areas, not so much in the countryside, are by and large what eradicated or reduced many diseases at the turn of the 20th century, not vaccines.
I think the benefits from vaccines, and antibiotics, and drugs, are vastly exaggerated and the detriments vastly downplayed, meanwhile the benefits of nutrition, herbalism and detoxification are vastly downplayed, it's probably no coincidence many diseases from autism to cancer have been on the rise for decades.
I know people in my personal life who swear they or their children were injured by a vaccine.
And thousands of naturopaths (and some allopaths), nutritionists and the millions of people who swear by them agree with me.
The courts pay out billions of dollars to people injured by vaccines every year, even tho they're rigged in the pharmaceutical industry's favor, they'd probably pay out even more if they weren't, meanwhile mainstream allopathy, compromised by the pharmaceutical industry as it is, at least in part, continues to minimize the danger.

You can't patent a nutrient, detox regimen or herb, and they tend to have no or less side or negative effects that can be masked by yet more mainstream medicine (which I'm not saying is all bad, just overrated), and most people like a quick fix, these days a lot of people don't have time for anything else.

I believe sickness tends to come more from the condition of the body/mind than from outside like a germ.
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Re: freedom and the coronavirus

Postby Gloominary » Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:09 am

iambiguous wrote:Well, there is always the socialist alternative.

But if someone is sticking with capitalism they had better organize with others politically to do what they can to rein in crony capitalism. Because as long as elections revolve around the "show me the money" interest of Wall Street and K Street [here in America], don't expect much to change.

And that's where I side most with progressives.
I don't believe it's enough to merely rein in crony capitalism now, they've been profiting off it forever, increasingly so over the last several decades.
I believe in higher taxes on the 1% and stricter restrictions on big business, especially the ones who've profited from crony cap the most, and redistributing them either in the form of affordable housing, better, freer, but voluntary healthcare and living wages, or UBI.
I believe everyone who works or can't is entitled to a decent standard of living and opportunities to get ahead.
Reducing the enormous gulf between the 1 and 99% will help prevent future instances of crony cap.
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Re: freedom and the coronavirus

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:06 am

Gloominary: How bout we let individuals determine what sort of danger, if any, this thing poses to themselves and those around them, and how best to deal with it, rather than imposing a one-size-fits-all, top-down assessment of and response to it?
Are some individuals oblivious to the threat?
Or are they rightfully skeptical of its existence or severity?
Or are many of the sacrifices we're asking many of them to make too great, or counterproductive?
Who're the technocrats to say your livelihood, church service or social function is inessential?
Why're we ruining young, and old peoples' lives to supposedly give sickly seniors a slight extension of their lifespan, assuming imprisoning them in nursing homes doesn't shorten their lifespan instead?
Is quality of life not equally important?
Does quality not affect quantity?"

K: ah, just a long way about saying, you don't give a shit about anybody but
yourself... and if everyone died, hay, more land for me......

in case you hadn't noticed, you cannot survive by your own actions....
you need, no must have a social network around you to survive as
a human being... there is no other possibility...we are not islands upon
ourselves...that is a fact jack.....

what you have done is nothing more then solipsism....
I am the only being to exists in the universe...
I am an individual and nothing else matters in the universe...

and what of your obligation to the others in society?

do you deny you have any obligation to others in the society
that keeps you alive?

you say one size fits all science fails? no, no it doesn't.....

it is why you are alive today....the vaccines that you have had or your
parents had, are why you are alive today....if there had been a German
measles vaccine when I was born, I wouldn't have lost my hearing...

millions of people have been saved from a wide variety of illness such
as polio and measles and smallpox.. you would have of course, denied them
their vaccines because you are above such things as caring about the society
around you or you hold pretensions of being an "individual", not part of the
"sheep" herd you believe lives around you.....

those technocrats you decry are the very ones who have saved
millions upon millions of lives including yours....

talk about biting the hand that feeds you.....

for vaccines to be effective, you have to vaccinate everyone or
it doesn't work.. you cannot vaccinate some and hope to
prevent deaths of millions... vaccinations are pretty much
an all or nothing proposition...you cannot vaccinates some
and hope to eradicate illnesses like Covid.....

so, what make you so special that you are above the rest of us?

are you a god or a special human being that is above us?

and you don't need to care about anyone else but yourself?

when the only, THE ONLY way you can survive today, is by
being part of the whole, part of society, part of the state....

so, pray tell,.... why are you so special?"


Glom: Yea, people who take conservative or libertarian positions are evil, people who take progressive positions are good, how thoughtful and nuanced.

K: reread what I wrote.... carefully....

Please show me the part where I wrote about "conservative" or "Libertarian"
or "progressive" positions? in fact, I made no mention of them at all....

I wrote about you specifically and the thread you made... I responded about that,
nothing more...I believe you are wrong for the reasons I laid out....that
individuals are often forced to make decisions that are against their specific
will but necessary for the good of society.

and I believe that vaccines are one of those points....yes, technocrats
and medical personal will often makes decisions that affect you... along
with millions of people for the good of all.....society has, for better or worse,
taken upon itself to protect you from crime for example... if you are assaulted,
then the state will attempt to find and punish the person or persons responsible.....
that is an example of decisions being taken out of your hands and put into
the hands of others...do you disagree with the state punishing people for
crimes committed?

you can't pick and choose which state decisions you will obey and which ones
you won't.....it is again, an all or nothing proposition......

is justice unfairly practiced? yes, yes it is and that is the liberal contention
that justice isn't equal.....the law is another example of the society overall
method of "one size fits all"..... do you disagree with society/the state
engaging in the judicial system as we know it today?

should people who commit murder, be able to decide their own fate?

that seems to be your contention....we should be free to act in our own self interest...
hence making murder, an individual choice.......

you may make the argument that the size of the choice, getting a vaccine
and committing murder, as two separate things.. but they are not....
they are simple two sides of the same coin... freedom of choice.....

are we free to commit murder or do we limit the act of murder?

are we free to avoid getting a vaccine or do we risk getting society
very ill from some disease? Under your theory, those in the Middle ages,
were free to choose if they got a vaccine (if there was one) from the black plague,
that killed almost half of the population of Europe.... do their individual
choices overrule the need of society to protect itself?

you are trying to split the baby and that isn't possible...
to have the best of both worlds and it isn't possible.....
if you accept the need of society to protect itself, then
then the society/state can force you to get a vaccination,
as it also has a judicial system to protect us....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: freedom and the coronavirus

Postby Gloominary » Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:21 pm

PK
you can't pick and choose which state decisions you will obey and which ones
you won't.....it is again, an all or nothing proposition......

If the technocrats of the day got together and decided blacks were inferior, and that they should ride on the back of the bus, do you think blacks should go along with that?
I don't think you do.
We can, and do choose what laws to follow.
I always consider what my society mandates or recommends, but if I have strong reasons for believing something to be immoral or wrong, I won't go along with it.
You're comparing murder to not wearing masks but to me they're apples and oranges.
Murder is unambiguous, while there's s a lot of ambiguity, and holes in the narrative about this phenomenon and the medical world in general, and I'm not the only one who thinks this way, while we may be a minority, millions, perhaps billions of people think like me.
I will continue to resist Covid restrictions by any means necessary, including the vaccine if and when they mandate it.
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Re: freedom and the coronavirus

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:17 pm

Peter Kropotkin said: you can't pick and choose which state decisions you will obey and which ones
you won't.....it is again, an all or nothing proposition......

is justice unfairly practiced? yes, yes it is and that is the liberal contention
that justice isn't equal.....the law is another example of the society overall
method of "one size fits all"..... do you disagree with society/the state
engaging in the judicial system as we know it today?

should people who commit murder, be able to decide their own fate?

that seems to be your contention....we should be free to act in our own self interest...
hence making murder, an individual choice.......


This would mean no conscientious objectors to the Vietnam and later wars. That it would be purely immoral for say a poor black to eat licorice to get high blood pressure on his intake exam to get out the Vietnam War (IOW given the the court system would have treated COs in the Vietnam war I see little reason for a poor black not to simply avoid the war. This would eliminate all sorts of open and passive civil rights disruptions and acts. And trust me, the state could have come up with rationalizations for why the mixing of whites and blacks was problematic. A lack of compliance both open and covert has been used by all sides of the political spectrum for a long time. Would a Southerner who did NOT return a slave but helped them on the underground railroad be immoral to do so? Or is the contention that governments no longer make immoral laws or policies?

I assume that you then have a great deal of criticism of Black Lives Matter and Antifah who are both selective about what laws they follow and in many instances have been allowed to be by local state governments who think they are right to oppose the laws, both national and local.
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Re: freedom and the coronavirus

Postby Gloominary » Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:29 pm

And what of illegal immigrants?
They don't belong here, right PK?
They should leave or be rounded up and deported?
Last edited by Gloominary on Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:06 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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