to rig or not to rig?

Discussion of the recent unfolding of history.

Re: to rig or not to rig?

Postby MagsJ » Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:22 pm

Meno_ wrote:
MagsJ wrote:
MagsJ wrote:Peter said: “so if the president violates his oath, the military must act to
obey their sworn duty to defend the constitution....”


Depends what they’re defending, if you ask me.. a constitution should at least attempt to benefit all, not some or a few. I don’t actually know if your constitution does, but it doesn’t seem like it does, by the state your country is in.
Does it?
Again, a work in progress, hopefully somewhat clarified come this November

Will it now even make a difference, to you’re current political climes?

If it doesn’t or can’t, then what will? free money and diet sodas..?
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: to rig or not to rig?

Postby Meno_ » Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:56 pm

MagsJsaid, :

"Will it now even make a difference, to you’re current political climes?"


Most or nearly all of it has been factored in, what's left is the unpredictability of Trump, of a genius that on the last. call , may become unmanageable.
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Re: to rig or not to rig?

Postby iambiguous » Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:02 pm

The first Trump/Biden debate is Tuesday, September 29, 2020, 9:00 PM EDT

Does anyone doubt that Chris Wallace will bring up the question of a "rigged election" in November?

And will or will not Trump be confronted with his threat to stay in the White House unless and until he is satisfied with the election results?

Finally, will the question of who in the government is responsible for removing him from office should he lose the election but refuse to leave on January 20th, be broached and put to rest?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: to rig or not to rig?

Postby MagsJ » Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:09 pm

I’ll try remember to watch the debate on the 29th..
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: to rig or not to rig?

Postby iambiguous » Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:44 pm

Paul Krugman in the NYT

'So now we have a deeply indebted business owner with every incentive to engage in malfeasance — except that in addition to running his business, he’s running the United States of America.

'But he may be about to lose that special position, and whatever financial defense it may provide.

'Think about that. Also think about the fact that Trump constantly complains about almost nonexistent voter fraud — he has never accepted the fact that he lost the popular vote four years ago — and that he has repeatedly refused to say that he will accept election results if he loses. And tell me that you aren’t terrified about what the next few weeks may hold.'


Terrified? Is that still the wrong word?

On the other hand, all the more reason for Chris Wallace to confront Trump if he tries to wiggle around responding to this concern in tonight's debate.

And how about Biden? Where would he draw the line if things don't go his way in November?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: to rig or not to rig?

Postby iambiguous » Wed Sep 30, 2020 7:51 pm

Veronica Quaife: "Be afraid. Be very afraid".

Or, to put it another way:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/30/us/p ... e=Homepage

President Trump’s angry insistence in the last minutes of Tuesday’s debate that there was no way the presidential election could be conducted without fraud amounted to an extraordinary declaration by a sitting American president that he would try to throw any outcome into the courts, Congress or the streets if he was not re-elected.


Wow, this may well become a "real thing".

Too bad I'm still basically too "fractured and fragmented" to take sides.

Objectively as it were.

Still, what isn't clear to me is how those in the government responsible for assuring a smooth transition from one president to another will react to something like this from Trump. For me, it's not what he does so much as what he can get away with.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: to rig or not to rig?

Postby Meno_ » Wed Sep 30, 2020 9:02 pm

iambiguous wrote:Veronica Quaife: "Be afraid. Be very afraid".

Or, to put it another way:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/30/us/p ... e=Homepage

President Trump’s angry insistence in the last minutes of Tuesday’s debate that there was no way the presidential election could be conducted without fraud amounted to an extraordinary declaration by a sitting American president that he would try to throw any outcome into the courts, Congress or the streets if he was not re-elected.


Wow, this may well become a "real thing".

Too bad I'm still basically too "fractured and fragmented" to take sides.

Objectively as it were.

Still, what isn't clear to me is how those in the government responsible for assuring a smooth transition from one president to another will react to something like this from Trump. For me, it's not what he does so much as what he can get away with.




Unless, and think twice about this, unless there is more to this than the theatrics of a failed comedian trying to wield a straight poker face!
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Re: to rig or not to rig?

Postby iambiguous » Sat Oct 03, 2020 10:45 pm

The most surreal rigged election of them all?

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/02/opin ... e=Homepage

'It’s a measure of the cynicism that has infected American politics — and, yes, me — that among my initial reactions to the news that President Trump had tested positive for the coronavirus was: Are we sure? Can we trust that? A man who so frequently and flamboyantly plays the victim, and who has been prophylactically compiling ways to explain away or dispute a projected loss to Joe Biden, is now being forced off the campaign trail, which will be a monster of an excuse.

'I couldn’t help thinking that, and I soon realized that I was in robust company. On Twitter, on television and everywhere else I turned, doubters noted that Trump had once already suggested that the election be postponed: Was this a fresh tactic along those lines? He had just turned in a repellent performance in the first presidential debate: Was he wriggling out of the second and third debates?

'At another time, under a different president, these questions would be callous. At this time, under this president, they were sadly and perfectly understandable.'


With Trump, absolutely nothing can be ruled out.

Right?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: to rig or not to rig?

Postby Ecmandu » Sun Oct 04, 2020 4:09 pm

I’m going to raise 4 bullet points that makes it credible that trump is faking it:

- he doesn’t have to debate joe anymore (even though it can be done on zoom)

- hypothetical sympathy for a psychopath

- he’ll emerge in perfect health to prove that coronavirus is a hoax

- for the evangelicals (and anarchists and white supremacists) it will be obvious to them that he is gods chosen one
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Re: to rig or not to rig?

Postby iambiguous » Sat Oct 10, 2020 10:41 pm

Let's be optimistic:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/10/opin ... e=Homepage

'Three weeks from now, we will reach an end to speculation about what Donald Trump will do if he faces political defeat, whether he will leave power like a normal president or attempt some wild resistance. Reality will intrude, substantially if not definitively, into the argument over whether the president is a corrupt incompetent who postures as a strongman on Twitter or a threat to the Republic to whom words like “authoritarian” and even “autocrat” can be reasonably applied.'

Just 25 days to go!

'Across the last four years, the Trump administration has indeed displayed hallmarks of authoritarianism. It features egregious internal sycophancy and hacks in high positions, abusive presidential rhetoric and mendacity on an unusual scale. The president’s attempts to delegitimize the 2020 vote aren’t novel; they’re an extension of the way he’s talked since his birther days, paranoid and demagogic.

'These are all very bad things, and good reasons to favor his defeat. But it’s also important to recognize all the elements of authoritarianism he lacks. He lacks popularity and political skill, unlike most of the global strongmen who are supposed to be his peers. He lacks power over the media: Outside of Fox’s prime time, he faces an unremittingly hostile press whose major outlets have thrived throughout his presidency. He is plainly despised by his own military leadership, and notwithstanding his courtship of Mark Zuckerberg, Silicon Valley is more likely to censor him than to support him in a constitutional crisis.

'His own Supreme Court appointees have already ruled against him; his attempts to turn his voter-fraud hype into litigation have been repeatedly defeated in the courts; he has been constantly at war with his own C.I.A. and F.B.I. And there is no mass movement behind him: The threat of far-right violence is certainly real, but America’s streets belong to the anti-Trump left.'


So, how comforting is this?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: to rig or not to rig?

Postby iambiguous » Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:26 pm

The possibilities are endless:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/28/opin ... e=Homepage

'On Oct. 23, the Pennsylvania state Republican Party asked the Supreme Court to take up the case again on its merits. If the court does so — back at full membership with Barrett potentially positioned to cast the tiebreaking vote — it raises the possibility that the outcome could once again be in the hands of the Supreme Court, just as it was in Bush v. Gore in 2000. The election would have to be close for this scenario to develop, but it is not impossible.

'An eventuality along these lines would play out against a background of grass roots mobilization on both the right and left that heightens the prospect of civic disruption. If Trump were to take advantage of chaos on Election Day and in its aftermath to claim victory, there is the near certain prospect of protests that would make this past summer’s Black Lives Matter demonstrations look mild in comparison.

'The radical right is currently the greatest focus of a potential for disruption.

'The Armed Conflict Location & Event Data Project, a liberal nonprofit group, issued a report earlier this month, “STANDING BY: Right-Wing Militia Groups & the US Election,” that “maps a subset of the most active right-wing militias” including the Three Percenters, the Oath Keepers, the Light Foot Militia, the Civilian Defense Force, and the“street movements that are highly active in brawls,” including the Proud Boys and Patriot Prayer.

'The Armed Conflict Location Group report warns:

'Militia groups and other armed nonstate actors pose a serious threat to the safety and security of American voters. Throughout the summer and leading up to the general election, these groups have become more assertive, with activities ranging from intervening in protests to organizing kidnapping plots targeting elected officials.

'The group’s report noted that both the Department of Homeland Security and the Federal Bureau of Investigation have specifically identified extreme far right-wing and racist movements as a primary risk factor heading into November, describing the election as a potential ‘flash point’ for reactionary violence.

'At the same time, liberal groups have not been sitting on their hands.

'A relatively moderate entity called Holdtheline has issued “A Guide to Defending Democracy” by Hardy Merriman, Ankur Asthana, Marium Navid and Kifah Shah, all active in leftist advocacy groups. The guide warns that “we are witnessing ongoing actions that destroy our democracy bit by bit.”

'The guide pointedly stresses nonviolence and describes two categories of protest, “acts of commission” including engaging in demonstrations, marches, or nonviolent blockades,” and “acts of omission,” including strikes of all kinds; deliberate work slowdowns; boycotts of all kinds; divestment; refusing to pay certain fees, bills, taxes, or other costs; or refusal to observe certain expected social norms or behaviors.

'A second liberal group, Choosing Democracy, is preparing for nonviolent protest in the event of “an undemocratic power grab — a coup.” The group asks supporters to take the following pledge:

'We will vote.

'We will refuse to accept election results until all the votes are counted.

'We will nonviolently take to the streets if a coup is attempted.

'If we need to, we will shut down this country to protect the integrity of the democratic process.

'As the Black Lives Matter protests in Portland, Seattle, New York and other cities demonstrated last summer, in large scale protests it can be difficult to enforce a commitment to nonviolence.

'Not only that, but the federal indictment of Ivan Harrison Hunter, a member of the Boogaloo Bois, on charges that he “discharged 13 rounds from an AK-47 style semiautomatic rifle into the Minneapolis Police Department’s Third Precinct building” suggests that in the event of protests from the left, right-wing groups will attempt to foster and encourage violence.

'Police department across the nation are gearing up to deal with violence on Election Day and in its aftermath.

'“It’s fair to say the police are preparing in ways they never would have had to for Election Day,” Chuck Wexler, director of the Police Executive Research Forum, a Washington-based think tank, told Time magazine. Andrew Walsh, a deputy chief of the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department, told The Washington Post, “I don’t think we’ve seen anything like this in modern times.”
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: to rig or not to rig?

Postby WendyDarling » Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:32 am

iambiguous wrote:Here we go...

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2020/08/16 ... e=Homepage

'With Joe Biden leading in many public polls, and Democrats getting ready to kick off their national convention on Monday, President Trump’s drive to create confusion and undermine confidence in the election is accelerating, as he attacks mail-in voting and praises his postmaster general despite criticism over mail service and an investigation opened by the Postal Service’s inspector general.

'In an appearance on CNN on Sunday, Mark Meadows, the White House chief of staff, defended the president’s opposition to universal mail-in ballots, which Mr. Trump has called “the mail-in scam,” making charges without evidence that efforts by states to help people vote by mail in the pandemic would lead to widespread voter fraud — a claim that even some Republicans dispute. Mr. Trump has said that higher voter participation would hurt Republican candidates.

When CNN host Jake Tapper pushed back, saying, “there’s no evidence of widespread voter fraud,” Mr. Meadows said, “there’s no evidence that there’s not, either.”'


Could the stakes possibly be higher? And imagine if the Democrats had managed to gain control of the Senate in 2018...

Principles and political ideals aside, it's all about who has the actual power to create, sustain and then enforce one outcome rather than another. And, who knows, this may once again all come down to a vote in the Supreme Court.

And while all politicians, liberal and conservative, choreograph elections into staged productions, with Trump, nothing is off the table. Indeed, when it comes to bringing his own set of "facts" to the issues and doubling down on the lies, he is in a class all his own.

If I do say so myself.


In multiple threads you repeatedly bring up Trump as an incessant liar, so until I get thoroughly bored with your denial of reality, I am going to continue with evidentiary written examples of the truth as expounded by Trump.
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Re: to rig or not to rig?

Postby iambiguous » Fri Oct 30, 2020 4:14 am

WendyDarling wrote:
In multiple threads you repeatedly bring up Trump as an incessant liar, so until I get thoroughly bored with your denial of reality, I am going to continue with evidentiary written examples of the truth as expounded by Trump.


Okay, Kid, here us a collection of his lies just in regard to the coronavirus:


https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... us/608647/

And these are just the first few of the "biggest lies".

'On the Nature of the Outbreak:

When: Friday, February 7, and Wednesday, February 19
The claim: The coronavirus would weaken “when we get into April, in the warmer weather—that has a very negative effect on that, and that type of a virus.”
The truth: When Trump made this claim, it was too early to tell whether the virus’s spread would be dampened by warmer conditions, though public-health experts and epidemiologists were immediately skeptical of Trump’s comment. But the spring and summer have passed, and the pandemic is still raging.

When: Thursday, February 27
The claim: The outbreak would be temporary: “It’s going to disappear. One day, it’s like a miracle—it will disappear.”
The truth: Anthony Fauci, the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, warned days later that he was concerned that “as the next week or two or three go by, we’re going to see a lot more community-related cases.” He was right—the virus has not disappeared.

When: Multiple times
The claim: If the economic shutdown continues, deaths by suicide “definitely would be in far greater numbers than the numbers that we’re talking about” for COVID-19 deaths.
The truth: More than 200,000 Americans have died from COVID-19. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, suicide is one of the leading causes of death in the United States. But the number of people who died by suicide in 2017, for example, was roughly 47,000, nowhere near the COVID-19 numbers. Estimates of the mental-health toll of the Great Recession are mixed. A 2014 study tied more than 10,000 suicides in Europe and North America to the financial crisis. But a larger analysis in 2017 found that although the rate of suicide was increasing in the United States, the increase could not be directly tied to the recession and was attributable to broader socioeconomic conditions predating the downturn.

When: Multiple times
The claim: “Coronavirus numbers are looking MUCH better, going down almost everywhere,” and cases are “coming way down.”
The truth: When Trump made these claims in May, coronavirus cases were either increasing or plateauing in the majority of American states. Over the summer, the country saw a second surge even greater than its first in the spring.'


Note to others:

What is often just as ludicrous as Trump's lies are the twisted attempts by his supporters to turn them into truths.

To wit:

Your up, Kid.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: to rig or not to rig?

Postby WendyDarling » Fri Oct 30, 2020 4:57 am

Hold your horses, you gave politifact's as your first evidence of Trump's lies, so Politifacts is what will be sorted first.

Politifacts claimed that Trump spoke the following quote during a debate on October 22, 2020:
Trump says Michigan has been “like a prison” during the Coronavirus.


Politifacts sources for their claim follows...

Our Sources
The Detroit Free Press, Paul Egan and Kathleen Gray, "Gov. Gretchen Whitmer issues 'stay at home' order for Michigan, effective at midnight," March 23, 2020

The Detroit Free Press, Brian Manzullo, "Michigan stay home order lifted: Read Gov. Whitmer's full executive order," June 1, 2020

The Detroit Free Press, Paul Egan and Kristen Jordan Shamus, "Whitmer ends Michigan's stay home order, allows bars and restaurants to reopen June 8," June 1, 2020

The Detroit Free Press, Adrienne Roberts, "What to expect as Michigan hair and nail salons, barbershops and spas reopen," June 15, 2020

The Detroit Free Press, Paul Egan, "Detroit casinos to reopen at reduced capacity; new restrictions Up North," July 29, 2020

The Detroit Free Press, Adrienne Roberts, "Michigan gyms can reopen Sept. 9: What you need to know," September 3, 2020

The Detroit Free Press, Paul Egan and Dave Boucher, "Michigan movie theaters, bowling alleys can reopen Oct. 9, Gov. Whitmer says," September 25, 2020

The Detroit Free Press, Niraj Warikoo, "Churches in Michigan still get penalty exemption under new stay-at-home order," March 24, 2020

The Detroit Free Press, Paul Egan, "Michigan's stay-at-home order: We answer 20 frequently asked questions," April 13, 2020

The Detroit Free Press, Paul Egan and Kara Berg, "Thousands converge to protest Michigan governor's stay-home order in 'Operation Gridlock'," April 15, 2020

Donald Trump, tweet, April 17, 2020

The Detroit News, Beth LeBlanc, "Protesters gather outside the governor's Lansing residence over stay-home order," April 23, 2020

The Detroit Free Press, Paul Egan, "Michigan is considering move to ban guns inside state Capitol Building," May 5, 2020

The Detroit Free Press, Todd Spangler, "Poll: Michigan voters show support for Gov. Whitmer's handling of coronavirus," May 20, 2020

ClickOnDetroit.com, Ken Haddad, "Poll: Michigan voters continue to back Gov. Whitmer’s handling of COVID-19 pandemic," September 9, 2020

The Detroit Free Press, Dave Boucher and Todd Spangler, "Michigan Supreme Court rules against Whitmer on emergency powers but effect unclear," October 2, 2020

The Detroit Free Press, Pat Byrne, Brain McNamara, Brian Todd, Kristi Tanner and Nisa Khan, "Michigan coronavirus cases: Tracking the pandemic," accessed October 23, 2020

Factbase, Interview: Sean Hannity Interviews Donald Trump Live Via Telephone - October 8, 2020

Factbase, Remarks: Donald Trump holds a virtual rally Michigan Tele-Rally - October 20, 2020


Is there one entry made by Trump on October 22, 2020?

I don't doubt Trump said the prison comment at some point much earlier when the Michigan lockdown was in full effect, but that is not what Politifact is claiming about Trump.
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"I can hope they have some degree of self-awareness but the facts suggest that
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. :evilfun:
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Re: to rig or not to rig?

Postby WendyDarling » Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:30 pm

Biggie, did Politifact lie?
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Re: to rig or not to rig?

Postby iambiguous » Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:03 pm

WendyDarling wrote:Hold your horses, you gave politifact's as your first evidence of Trump's lies, so Politifacts is what will be sorted first.

Politifacts claimed that Trump spoke the following quote during a debate on October 22, 2020:
Trump says Michigan has been “like a prison” during the Coronavirus.


Politifacts sources for their claim follows...

Our Sources
The Detroit Free Press, Paul Egan and Kathleen Gray, "Gov. Gretchen Whitmer issues 'stay at home' order for Michigan, effective at midnight," March 23, 2020

The Detroit Free Press, Brian Manzullo, "Michigan stay home order lifted: Read Gov. Whitmer's full executive order," June 1, 2020

The Detroit Free Press, Paul Egan and Kristen Jordan Shamus, "Whitmer ends Michigan's stay home order, allows bars and restaurants to reopen June 8," June 1, 2020

The Detroit Free Press, Adrienne Roberts, "What to expect as Michigan hair and nail salons, barbershops and spas reopen," June 15, 2020

The Detroit Free Press, Paul Egan, "Detroit casinos to reopen at reduced capacity; new restrictions Up North," July 29, 2020

The Detroit Free Press, Adrienne Roberts, "Michigan gyms can reopen Sept. 9: What you need to know," September 3, 2020

The Detroit Free Press, Paul Egan and Dave Boucher, "Michigan movie theaters, bowling alleys can reopen Oct. 9, Gov. Whitmer says," September 25, 2020

The Detroit Free Press, Niraj Warikoo, "Churches in Michigan still get penalty exemption under new stay-at-home order," March 24, 2020

The Detroit Free Press, Paul Egan, "Michigan's stay-at-home order: We answer 20 frequently asked questions," April 13, 2020

The Detroit Free Press, Paul Egan and Kara Berg, "Thousands converge to protest Michigan governor's stay-home order in 'Operation Gridlock'," April 15, 2020

Donald Trump, tweet, April 17, 2020

The Detroit News, Beth LeBlanc, "Protesters gather outside the governor's Lansing residence over stay-home order," April 23, 2020

The Detroit Free Press, Paul Egan, "Michigan is considering move to ban guns inside state Capitol Building," May 5, 2020

The Detroit Free Press, Todd Spangler, "Poll: Michigan voters show support for Gov. Whitmer's handling of coronavirus," May 20, 2020

ClickOnDetroit.com, Ken Haddad, "Poll: Michigan voters continue to back Gov. Whitmer’s handling of COVID-19 pandemic," September 9, 2020

The Detroit Free Press, Dave Boucher and Todd Spangler, "Michigan Supreme Court rules against Whitmer on emergency powers but effect unclear," October 2, 2020

The Detroit Free Press, Pat Byrne, Brain McNamara, Brian Todd, Kristi Tanner and Nisa Khan, "Michigan coronavirus cases: Tracking the pandemic," accessed October 23, 2020

Factbase, Interview: Sean Hannity Interviews Donald Trump Live Via Telephone - October 8, 2020

Factbase, Remarks: Donald Trump holds a virtual rally Michigan Tele-Rally - October 20, 2020


Is there one entry made by Trump on October 22, 2020?

I don't doubt Trump said the prison comment at some point much earlier when the Michigan lockdown was in full effect, but that is not what Politifact is claiming about Trump.


Note to others:

Decide for yourselves: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2 ... ndemic-ha/
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: to rig or not to rig?

Postby WendyDarling » Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:46 pm

Ah, Biggie this is for you. The link reiterates the sources which I listed. In Politifacts sources, is there one entry made by Trump on October 22, 2020?
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Re: to rig or not to rig?

Postby iambiguous » Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:10 am

Four days to go until...?

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/30/opin ... e=Homepage

'They [the White House insiders] are worried that the president could use the power of the government — the one they all serve or served within — to keep himself in office or to create favorable terms for negotiating his exit from the White House.'

Never thought of that part. Trump agrees to leave peacefully but only if, say, the Democrats agree not to pursue criminal charges against him.

Or...

'Many of the officials I spoke to came back to one idea: You don’t know Donald Trump like we do. Even though they can’t predict exactly what will happen, their concerns range from the president welcoming, then leveraging, foreign interference in the election, to encouraging havoc that grows into conflagrations that would merit his calling upon U.S. forces. Because he is now surrounded by loyalists, they say, there is no one to try to tell an impulsive man what he should or shouldn’t do.'

So, given the Trump that they know, it's not at all out of the question to imagine the worst of all possible worlds.

To wit:

'“That guy you saw in the debate,” a second former senior intelligence official told me, after the first debate, when the president offered one of the most astonishing performances of any leader in modern American history — bullying, ridiculing, manic, boasting, fabricating, relentlessly interrupting and talking over his opponent. “That’s really him. Not the myth that’s been created. That’s Trump.”

'Still another senior government official, who spent years working in proximity to Mr. Trump, put it like this: “He has done nothing else that’s a constant, except for acting in his own interest.” And that’s how “he’s going to be thinking, every step of the way, come Nov. 3.”'
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: to rig or not to rig?

Postby WendyDarling » Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:59 pm

Biggie, can people without a subscription to the New York Times read the articles and follow their evidentiary links? I do not have a subscription and it is not allowing me to access the article.
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"I can hope they have some degree of self-awareness but the facts suggest that
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. :evilfun:
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Re: to rig or not to rig?

Postby iambiguous » Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:10 pm

WendyDarling wrote:Biggie, can people without a subscription to the New York Times read the articles and follow their evidentiary links? I do not have a subscription and it is not allowing me to access the article.


Try this:

Go to the pro-Trump media and pull the same shit on us. :lol:
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: to rig or not to rig?

Postby WendyDarling » Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:13 pm

iambiguous wrote:It's war!

Or, rather, the political equivalent of it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/17/opin ... e=Homepage

'This summer, a bipartisan group of former government officials, political professionals, lawyers and journalists held a series of war game exercises about how the 2020 election might go wrong. Convened by the law professor Rosa Brooks and the historian Nils Gilman, it was called the Transition Integrity Project, and the results were alarming.

'“We assess with a high degree of likelihood that November’s elections will be marked by a chaotic legal and political landscape,” said a resulting report. President Trump, it said, “is likely to contest the result by both legal and extralegal means.”

'Participants in the Transition Integrity Project played out tactics the president might try if threatened with defeat, including federalizing the National Guard to stop the counting of mail-in ballots. In each scenario, the decisions of the Department of Justice, state officials and the candidates themselves proved pivotal.

'But so was the willingness of masses of people to protest. “A show of numbers in the streets — and actions in the streets — may be decisive factors in determining what the public perceives as a just and legitimate outcome,” said the report.


That's really what it comes down. Actual flesh and blood human beings pouring over the political landscape, scouring anything that Trump might pursue, organizing to form a network [on and offline] and possessing the ability to take it to the streets when necessary.

'So a coalition of progressive groups, as well as some anti-authoritarian conservative ones, is organizing under the rubric Protect the Results to get people into the streets if Trump tries to cheat in November. “It’s a pretty massive effort that’s underway,” said Rashad Robinson, executive director of Color of Change, which is part of the coalition. Activists all over the country, he said, are “really gearing up for this fight.”'

The bigger the coalition here the better.

Note to conservatives:

Please connect us to any reports you come across that night indicate Biden and the Democrats are no less willing to employ dirty tricks to win this thing.

But: No Kids please. And no rabid reactionaries -- QAnon types -- who post idiotic fulminations that have as little intelligence attached to them as one would expect.


Oh, and just a reminder:

My arguments on this thread are no less the existential embodiment of my own political prejudices. I recognize that had my birthday resulted in my not being drafted into the Army all those years ago, I could very well still be a rabid Christian, a racist, sexist, homophobe, a white working class supporter of Donald Trump.

Contingency, chance and change are no less embedded in my life than in yours.

I just recognize this now in a way that the objectivists do not.


President Trump, it said, “is likely to contest the result by both legal and extralegal means.”
Here is a prime example of audience manipulation. Trump didn't say what they have quoted, but that is not what zombies read. Zombies read that Trump will do both legal and extralegal which these scumbags are trying to frame as possibly illegal, conspiracy type shit, stuff beyond the law finding out.
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"I can hope they have some degree of self-awareness but the facts suggest that
they don't..... "- Peter Kropotkin
. :evilfun:
"you don't know the value of facts and you don't know the value of the ‘TRUTH”... " -Peter Kropotkin :lol:
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Re: to rig or not to rig?

Postby WendyDarling » Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:24 pm

iambiguous wrote:
WendyDarling wrote:Biggie, can people without a subscription to the New York Times read the articles and follow their evidentiary links? I do not have a subscription and it is not allowing me to access the article.


Try this:

Go to the pro-Trump media and pull the same shit on us. :lol:


I am going to start pointing out every media manipulation and lie I come across in your media links and posts starting back at the beginning of the thread.
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"facts change all the time and not only that, they don't mean anything...."-Peter Kropotkin :evilfun:
"I can hope they have some degree of self-awareness but the facts suggest that
they don't..... "- Peter Kropotkin
. :evilfun:
"you don't know the value of facts and you don't know the value of the ‘TRUTH”... " -Peter Kropotkin :lol:
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Re: to rig or not to rig?

Postby iambiguous » Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:29 pm

WendyDarling wrote:
iambiguous wrote:
WendyDarling wrote:Biggie, can people without a subscription to the New York Times read the articles and follow their evidentiary links? I do not have a subscription and it is not allowing me to access the article.


Try this:

Go to the pro-Trump media and pull the same shit on us. :lol:


I am going to start pointing out every media manipulation and lie I come across in your media links and posts starting back at the beginning of the thread.


First, of course, define "lie". :lol:
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: to rig or not to rig?

Postby WendyDarling » Sat Oct 31, 2020 8:11 pm

Yeah, Biggie, we already know that you don't know what a lie is.

Biggie wrote
Note to conservatives:

Please connect us to any reports you come across that night indicate Biden and the Democrats are no less willing to employ dirty tricks to win this thing.


The Democrat push for nationwide mail-in ballots was the first dirty trick. Our country has never accommodated a hundred million national mail-in ballots, so operating systems and security measures have not been proven effective nationwide, but "In Person" voting systems and security measures have been proven and are less disputable. While Covid is a concern, safety measures can and have been taken to vote In Person without becoming infected. Infection was the Democrats main excuse to promote an unproven, unsecured national voting system which they will dispute once the red wave of In Person votes decimates their mail in ballot scheme. People online have commented on voting multiple times (one person said that he voted by mail three times and was heading to vote In Person on election day) because they know that there are no checks and balances, no proven voter fraud catching systems in place.

Wiki
Postal ballots have been the source of "most significant vote-counting disputes in recent decades" according to Edward Foley, director of the Election Law program at Ohio State University.[84] Among the thousands of elections from 2000 to 2012, there were 491 known cases of absentee ballot fraud,[85][86][8] and the Heritage Foundation lists additional cases since 2012.[87] From 2003 to 2018, at least 15 local election results were thrown out in tight elections based in part on absentee voting fraud.[88]

Richard Hasen, a professor at UC Irvine School of Law said "problems are extremely rare in the five states that rely primarily on vote-by-mail."[89] Justin Levitt, a law professor at Loyola Marymount University does not have statistics on postal ballot fraud, but said "I do collect anecdotal reports... misconduct in the mail voting process is meaningfully more prevalent than misconduct in the process of voting in person... Misconduct still amounts to only a tiny fraction of the ballots cast by mail."[89] Lonna Atkeson, an expert in election administration, said about mail-in voting fraud, "It's really hard to find... The fact is, we really don't know how much fraud there is... There aren't millions of fraudulent votes, but there are some."[89]

In 2018, a report from the US Senate Intelligence Committee of Russian meddling in the 2016 election pointed out that auditable paper ballots, by definition part of all vote by mail elections, were potentially safer than paperless voting systems,[90] which are still used in a few states. However, only about half the states actually use paper ballots to conduct election audits.

Specific types of problems include:

Voter's request for postal ballot, in states that require one, is lost or not received or processed in time, so voter must vote in person or not vote (for example over 9,000 properly requested ballots were not sent in Wisconsin in 2020)[16]
Voter's request is altered or forged[91][92]
In states that mail ballots to registered voters without request, some voters have died or moved, and any ballots not returned by the post office can get into the wrong hands[93][94]
Election office sends voters the wrong instructions[95] or wrong ballot, when offices on the ballot differ by party or district.[96]
Voter does not receive mailed ballot, because it does not arrive at the address in time, or someone else takes it[16][97]
Voter misplaces ballot, so must vote with provisional ballot, and someone else may find and vote the original postal ballot, leading to rejection of the provisional ballot.[98][97]
Voter is pressured to vote a certain way by family, caregiver, or other, or provide the blank ballot to someone[99][100]
Voters may be paid to vote a certain way[101]
Someone collects many ballots[102] and does not deliver the ones from neighborhoods likely to vote against the collector's candidates[103]
Someone collects many ballots, opens envelopes, and marks votes; if voter has already voted, fraudster can mark extra votes on same contests, to invalidate ballot[104]
Election office receives the ballot late (114,000 ballots in 2018);[10][105][106] in a Philadelphia experiment, most ballots were misplaced by the postal service, and even after they were found, 21% took more than 4 days to arrive and 3% took more than a week[107]
Voter's signature on envelope is missing (55,000 in 2018) or does not match signature on file (67,000), so either there is widespread fraud being prevented by signature reviews, or if these submissions were not fraudulent, then valid ballots are being rejected[10][14]
Forged signature on envelope is accepted as close enough to signature on file, so invalid ballots are accepted[14]
Signature rejection rates vary by race, county and state, ranging from none to 20% rejected[11][15]
Staff who open envelopes falsify or ignore ballots[108][109]
Compilation of votes omits postal ballots[110]
These problems with postal ballots can be categorized as (A) procedural issues, which may not have solutions; (B) collection of ballots by dishonest collectors, which is partly controlled in many states by limits on the number of ballots that one person can deliver, though collectors can still mail in the ballots they collect,[111][103] and the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals disallowed Arizona's limits based on discriminatory intent;[112] (C) signature verification, which has inherent errors and may have bias,[15][14] and (D) insider issues, which are partly addressed by enough staffing, quality control, and openness to observation by the public or candidates.

Some problems have inherently limited scope, such as family pressure and bribes, while others can affect several percent of the vote, such as signature verification.


So, there is an estimated 250,000,000 people eligible to vote in 2020 and 100,000,000 try the mail in ballot, if mail in voter fraud happens as recorded above at 1%, how many bogus votes is that? 1,000,000 with verified systems in place. Question is, how many will slip through the gaping cracks of a mail in ballot scheme, with unverified systems in place, implemented last minute?
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"facts change all the time and not only that, they don't mean anything...."-Peter Kropotkin :evilfun:
"I can hope they have some degree of self-awareness but the facts suggest that
they don't..... "- Peter Kropotkin
. :evilfun:
"you don't know the value of facts and you don't know the value of the ‘TRUTH”... " -Peter Kropotkin :lol:
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Re: to rig or not to rig?

Postby iambiguous » Fri Nov 06, 2020 11:24 pm

Back to this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... nize-coup/

I have never been more grateful for President Trump’s incompetence. He can’t even organize a coup d’état properly.

It is not for want of trying. Since April 8, he has been fulminating against mail-in voting — claiming, without a shred of evidence, that it is ripe for fraud. His transparently obvious scheme has been to demand that the largely Democratic mail-in ballots be thrown out so that he could win based on the Election Day totals.


Not much speculation of this sort is around. In part because the focus remains on who exactly will win the thing. But as it appears increasingly more likely that it will be Biden, can we count of Trump's incompetence here?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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