Mandatory Vaccination

Discussion of the recent unfolding of history.

ILP, once a Covid-19 vaccination appears, should everyone be forced to get it?

Absolutely
5
36%
Only if the worst case scenario transpires and it's been scientifically proven millions upon millions will die if we don't.
0
No votes
Only if opinion polls demonstrate most people are in favor of it.
0
No votes
Government shouldn't force anyone to get it, but it should forcibly quarantine anyone who hasn't had it in their homes until this whole thing clears up.
2
14%
No way, never.
7
50%
 
Total votes : 14

Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby MagsJ » Sun May 03, 2020 2:53 pm

iambiguous wrote:
MagsJ wrote:Are you oblivious to what actually goes on in the World Iam?

In other words, one is oblivious to what actually goes on in the world if they refuse to think about it exactly as you do. And not just about vaccines, right?

Lol, no.. the above former (of what I had enquired on), isn’t dependent on others having to think exactly as I do, but probably on having to think more.

As to the latter.. my enquiry was pertaining to the vaccine, in that what is actually approved to go to market is not what we get and are administered with, so has not been approved and therefore not verified as safe.

I have been dealing with self-righteous minds like yours -- my friend Carol called them "meat minds" -- for years. The only thing that changes is what [this time] they insist they are ever and always right about.

Does what I’ve said above sound self-righteous to you?

I hate repeating myself but here goes.. many here are refusing to have or have stopped having the flu jab, because of the long-lasting ill-effects that are being experienced.

Remember when Boris Johnson was ever and always right about pursuing the Swedish model in England?

Though, sure, if there are those here who will refuse to get vaccinated when there is one available for the covid-19 virus, let them make that choice. I would never make it mandatory.

Although their children may bear the brunt of the consequences if they are wrong.

I, and most others, started self-isolating and social distancing from day one, so what Boris and the remainder of the population chose to do was up to them. We do not have much of a herd-mentality here, so each (does) to their own.

I have neither felt imprisoned or dictated-to since the official UK lock-down was implemented, and the only ones suffering from it are businesses and vulnerable front-line workers.

Now, I don't pretend that my own frame of mind here is not predicated on the facts that I have accumulated in conjunction with my assumption that "I" here is predicated largely on the assumptions I make about dasein.

But that's just me.

Yes.. that is just you. ; )
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Wait, What! - MagsJ

You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby iambiguous » Sun May 03, 2020 11:10 pm

MagsJ wrote:
iambiguous wrote:
MagsJ wrote:Are you oblivious to what actually goes on in the World Iam?

In other words, one is oblivious to what actually goes on in the world if they refuse to think about it exactly as you do. And not just about vaccines, right?

Lol, no.. the above former (of what I had enquired on), isn’t dependent on others having to think exactly as I do, but probably on having to think more.


Wait a minute. To ask me if I am oblivious to what actually goes on in the world here seems to suggest [to me] that...

1] It can in fact be known what is actually going on in the world regarding vaccines. That even though debates like this -- https://vaccines.procon.org/ -- go on, one side and not the other really does know what is going on

2] that you deem yourself to be someone who does know

And I suspect that from the creation of vaccines, to the ingredients in them, to administering them, to the marketing and selling of them, to the relationship between a government and its citizenry in regard to them, there are any number of conflicting political agendas...left and right.

My point of course is to the extent to which someone might embrace a point of view here that is attached to what I call the psychology of objectivism. The belief that as far as vaccines [and most everything else political] are concerned, they are in touch with the "real me" wholly in sync with "the right thing to do".

Thus they are far less willing even to consider the arguments of others, let alone to moderate their own views in order to negotiate and compromise with those who have conflicting assessments in order to enact actual laws that reflect a broader consensus.

Unless, of course, I am still misunderstanding you.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby phyllo » Mon May 04, 2020 3:27 pm

Thus they are far less willing even to consider the arguments of others, let alone to moderate their own views in order to negotiate and compromise with those who have conflicting assessments in order to enact actual laws that reflect a broader consensus.
And how would a negation look with respect to a COVID vaccine?

One side believes that those who do not get vaccinated pose a threat of spreading a potentially dangerous virus to a large group of people.

The other side believes that the vaccine is dangerous to their own health.

What happens in the negotiation? What is ideally achieved?
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby iambiguous » Mon May 04, 2020 5:09 pm

Thus they are far less willing even to consider the arguments of others, let alone to moderate their own views in order to negotiate and compromise with those who have conflicting assessments in order to enact actual laws that reflect a broader consensus.


And how would a negation look with respect to a COVID vaccine?

One side believes that those who do not get vaccinated pose a threat of spreading a potentially dangerous virus to a large group of people.

The other side believes that the vaccine is dangerous to their own health.

What happens in the negotiation? What is ideally achieved?


Imagine three communities:

In the first, there are people who have all the political power and might makes right. No negotiation and compromise about vaccination or anything else.

In the second, one or another equivalent of philosopher-kings or theocracts have all the power. And their rendition of right makes might [backed up by the power to enforce it] results in no negotiations or compromise regarding vaccinatiom or anything else.

In the third [the one I suspect most of us live in] citizens are permitted to have conflicting opinions about vaccines.They are permitted to back political parties that share their point of view and the "battle" takes place in the legislature, in the executive branch and in the courts.

Just Google "vaccination laws by state" and you get this:

https://www.google.com/search?ei=DTiwXu ... HgQ4dUDCAw

So, the question here is this: are those on this thread who are for and against vaccination willing to sustain democracy and the rule of law, or are they so rabidly convinced that only their own personal opinion about a covid-19 vaccination is the right one, that they are willing to bring "the system" down so that only those who think like them have all the power here?

For me, there are two matters in particular that are important:

1] those opposed to the vaccine may be wrong and their freedom to refuse to get vaccinated clashes with the freedom of those who don't want to get sick being around those who can make them sick

2] adults making decisions that impact children who have no say in the matter

Thus the clash here over what "the facts" are. Like only one side has them.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby Gloominary » Mon May 04, 2020 7:06 pm

MagsJ wrote:
Gloominary wrote:Thanks for posting this.

I wonder how many people would still get the flu shot every year if they knew they put detergent in them?
I mean you wouldn't fucking eat detergent, but you'll stick it in your baby's veins?
There's some things we may need to do studies on, but this shouldn't be one of them.
They have as much chance of convincing me that sticking bleach into a child's veins is medicine as they have of convincing me that the sky is green and the grass blue.

..and yet, it is very ironic that those who are administerIng these injectables, cannot tell the administees what is in the product that they are injecting into the administees vein and bloodstream.

Like any other prescriptive medication, surely the ingredients in injectables should be made a known.. but why aren’t they?

Yup, clearly they don't care about people, only profit and/or depopulation.

It's funny all these science geeks and nerds laugh at Ayurveda, Traditional Chinese Medicine and what not.
I don't trust Ayurveda or Traditional Chinese Medicine either (no offence to people who do, I'm sure they have some truth to them, just as mainstream medicine has some if you're careful and you use it as a last resort), but I'd sooner drink bear bile or splash shark urine on my face than stick detergent in my veins (on 2nd thought, I wouldn't sooner drink bear bile, terrible what they do to those poor bears, but you get my point).

Does Chinese medicine even work? Homeopathy at least shows positive results, with lesser and alleviated symptoms.

I'm sure some Chinese medicine works, I mean how could every herb, supplement and so on they advocate not work?
They have millions.
It's not a question of if, but how many of them work.
I'm sure there's some studies out there affirming some of their medicines, but don't expect big brother, mainstream academia or media to tell you about them, because of course they're heavily skewed in favor of the pharmaceutical industry, which's in competition with Chinese medicine, Ayurveda, Naturopathy and so on.

Working on the nervous system is an ancient and Ayurvedic endeavour, and is the key to permanent good health, in staving off dis-ease.. consuming anti-inflammatory produce, like Karpel Tunnel did, is key to NS maintenance in a toxic environment.

Like Karpel, I have been successful in overcoming a debilitating dis-ease.. without the use of modern medicine, which was caused by an anaesthetic/a modern medicine, so I am speaking from a place of experience. I don’t otherwise take modern medicines.. for anything.

I've cured illnesses I had and manage others through diet, wearing more natural clothing, using more natural soaps and eliminating or reducing pollutants from my environment, but I haven't experimented much with alternative medicine.
I believe more in living more naturally.
It's not that technology is bad, just that it has costs and benefits, and we could be more mindful of its byproducts.

Some doctors do good work, like Dr. Erickson from Berkeley California, because they temper everything quackademics tell them with common sense and critical thinking, but by and large doctors are just modern snake oil salesman, wittingly or unwittingly.
They're more sophisticated, they wear lab coats and work in sleek, slick, sterile labs, but they're every bit as fallacious.

Medical school teaches how to treat not cure.. and therein lies the problem.

Be a Physician unto yourself.. heal thine-self.

Yup, and because people are lazy and misinformed, most people will continue to rely on big pharma instead of doing it themselves.
Last edited by Gloominary on Tue May 05, 2020 1:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby Gloominary » Mon May 04, 2020 7:28 pm

WendyDarling wrote:
Gloominary wrote:They'll probably develop a vaxx if they haven't already and I'm sure they'll commence campaigning for it not too long before it's released.
It'll be interesting to see if and by how much they'll be able to raise public support.


The MSM and its leaders raise public support by lying that they already have it with their polls, their salaried doctors/scientists, and whatnot.

Yup, can't trust their polls, we need to let the deep state and everyone else know by protesting, being civilly disobedient and noncompliant that we're not having it.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby phyllo » Mon May 04, 2020 8:16 pm

So, the question here is this: are those on this thread who are for and against vaccination willing to sustain democracy and the rule of law, or are they so rabidly convinced that only their own personal opinion about a covid-19 vaccination is the right one, that they are willing to bring "the system" down so that only those who think like them have all the power here?
That's not any sort of negotiation.

And a number of the participants in this thread have stated that they would refuse to take a mandatory vaccine. So the question is already answered. (If it's more than mere talk.)
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby iambiguous » Mon May 04, 2020 8:43 pm

phyllo wrote:
So, the question here is this: are those on this thread who are for and against vaccination willing to sustain democracy and the rule of law, or are they so rabidly convinced that only their own personal opinion about a covid-19 vaccination is the right one, that they are willing to bring "the system" down so that only those who think like them have all the power here?
That's not any sort of negotiation.


Then we understand the meaning of "negotiation" in a democracy governed by the rule of law differently. In all the states [here in America], liberals and conservative weigh in on the issue in various ways and then attempt to elect those to office who will shape and mold any legislation so as to reflect more their own concerns.

It's just that some citizens have more power than others. Big Pharma for example. The medical industrial complex for example. Crony capitalists for example.

I mean, let's face it, folks here have different ideas regarding that which constitutes the "deep state".

phyllo wrote:And a number of the participants in this thread have stated that they would refuse to take a mandatory vaccine. So the question is already answered. (If it's more than mere talk.)


Again, this has to be examined in each particular context. They refuse. And others will react to their refusal.

Okay, so then what? Who has the power to enforce one rather than another set of behaviors.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby MagsJ » Wed May 06, 2020 3:09 pm

iambiguous wrote:
MagsJ wrote:Lol, no.. the above former (of what I had enquired on), isn’t dependent on others having to think exactly as I do, but probably on having to think more.
Wait a minute. To ask me if I am oblivious to what actually goes on in the world here seems to suggest [to me] that...

1] It can in fact be known what is actually going on in the world regarding vaccines. That even though debates like this -- https://vaccines.procon.org/ -- go on, one side and not the other really does know what is going on

2] that you deem yourself to be someone who does know

With 1, read into it what you will..

With 2, I’ve researched the matter enough, to make my own valued-judgement on it, that correlates with more than you might think.

And I suspect that from the creation of vaccines, to the ingredients in them, to administering them, to the marketing and selling of them, to the relationship between a government and its citizenry in regard to them, there are any number of conflicting political agendas...left and right.

Good of you to say so..

My point of course is to the extent to which someone might embrace a point of view here that is attached to what I call the psychology of objectivism. The belief that as far as vaccines [and most everything else political] are concerned, they are in touch with the "real me" wholly in sync with "the right thing to do".

..and who might this person, this someone, be?

Thus they are far less willing even to consider the arguments of others, let alone to moderate their own views in order to negotiate and compromise with those who have conflicting assessments in order to enact actual laws that reflect a broader consensus.

Conflicting.. or he who shouts the loudest? Individual versus conglomerates..

Unless, of course, I am still misunderstanding you.

I don’t know.. are you?
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Wait, What! - MagsJ

You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby MagsJ » Wed May 06, 2020 3:43 pm

Gloominary wrote:Yup, clearly they don't care about people, only profit and/or depopulation.

Perhaps, perhaps not.. some might, some might not.

I'm sure some Chinese medicine works, I mean how could every herb, supplement and so on they advocate not work?
They have millions.
It's not a question of if, but how many of them work.
I'm sure there's some studies out there affirming some of their medicines, but don't expect big brother, mainstream academia or media to tell you about them, because of course they're heavily skewed in favor of the pharmaceutical industry, which's in competition with Chinese medicine, Ayurveda, Naturopathy and so on.

I have yet to hear anyone I know singing the advocates of Chinese Medicine..

Ayurveda and Naturopathy.. these two work for me, but who knows about others? I certainly don’t..

I've cured illnesses I had and manage others through diet, wearing more natural clothing, using more natural soaps and eliminating or reducing pollutants from my environment, but I haven't experimented much with alternative medicine.
I believe more in living more naturally.
It's not that technology is bad, just that it has costs and benefits, and we could be more mindful of its byproducts.

“but I haven't experimented much with alternative medicine.“

It’s underrated.. as long as the correct diagnosis is made, thus separating the snake-oil-selling charlatans from the Physician/the Diagnoser..

Yup, and because people are lazy and misinformed, most people will continue to rely on big pharma instead of doing it themselves.

Pharma would have its use.. if it wasn’t so toxic, but in the case of pharma.. cheap really does (not) mean cheerful.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Wait, What! - MagsJ

You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby iambiguous » Fri May 08, 2020 6:23 pm

MagsJ wrote:
iambiguous wrote:
MagsJ wrote:Lol, no.. the above former (of what I had enquired on), isn’t dependent on others having to think exactly as I do, but probably on having to think more.
Wait a minute. To ask me if I am oblivious to what actually goes on in the world here seems to suggest [to me] that...

1] It can in fact be known what is actually going on in the world regarding vaccines. That even though debates like this -- https://vaccines.procon.org/ -- go on, one side and not the other really does know what is going on

2] that you deem yourself to be someone who does know

With 1, read into it what you will..


Well, given my own experience with moral and political objectivists, the only thing that can be derived from it, whether in regard to vaccines or any other context involving conflicting goods, is that, yes, it is possible to know what is going on in the world. Why? Because they already do know what is going on.

Which means that if you don't share their own assessment of their own collection of facts then you are wrong.

Necessarily wrong.

Also, the objectivists among us will almost never admit that in regard to an issue as important as this one -- here literally involving life and death -- that they were ever wrong. After all, to note that they were once wrong about something this important, means that they may well be wrong this time too.

At best, some will abandon one objectivist frame of mind for another. Okay, they were wrong before, but now they've seen the light. That was me once.

MagsJ wrote: With 2, I’ve researched the matter enough, to make my own valued-judgement on it, that correlates with more than you might think.


I don't doubt that. My point though is that those on the other side can say the same thing. Then what? Then it's back to a thread like this, a debate in which both sides are able to construct reasonable arguments based sets of assumptions, facts and scenarios that the other side are never able to make go away. Not completely.

Here in particular that revolves around political prejudices revolving around views of the government, of Big Brother, of assessments pertaining to the optimal relationship between "I" and "we" and "them". In regard to any particular citizen's freedoms and responsibilites.

The part I root in dasein, but that the objectivists root in God or ideology or reason or moral obligation or nature.

My point of course is to the extent to which someone might embrace a point of view here that is attached to what I call the psychology of objectivism. The belief that as far as vaccines [and most everything else political] are concerned, they are in touch with the "real me" wholly in sync with "the right thing to do".


MagsJ wrote: ..and who might this person, this someone, be?


It could be anyone.

Here I suggest that they explore the points I raise on this thread: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296

Then in regard to vaccines [on this thread] I ask them to note the extent to which their own political prejudices might perhaps be but another manifestation of this. Which back when I was an objectivist -- both God and No God -- it was clearly the case involving myself.

Thus they are far less willing even to consider the arguments of others, let alone to moderate their own views in order to negotiate and compromise with those who have conflicting assessments in order to enact actual laws that reflect a broader consensus.


MagsJ wrote: Conflicting.. or he who shouts the loudest? Individual versus conglomerates..


That's the part I root in political economy. The part that revolves around those who have accumulated the most economic power. The part that revolves around my own rendition of the "deep state": viewtopic.php?f=3&t=173789&p=2187045&hilit=bullfrog+films#p2187045
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby iambiguous » Wed May 13, 2020 7:03 pm

Okay, here it is: the liberal narrative: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/13/tech ... e=Homepage

'The other night, midway through watching a clip from “Plandemic” — a documentary that went viral on social media last week, spreading baseless lies and debunked nonsense about the coronavirus to millions of Americans overnight — I had a terrifying thought:

What if we get a Covid-19 vaccine and half the country refuses to take it?

'It occurred to me that all the misinformation we’ve seen so far — the false rumors that 5G cellphone towers fuel the coronavirus, that drinking bleach or injecting UV rays can cure it, that Dr. Anthony Fauci is part of an anti-Trump conspiracy — may be just the warm-up act for a much bigger information war when an effective vaccine becomes available to the public. This war could pit public health officials and politicians against an anti-vaccination movement that floods social media with misinformation, conspiracy theories and propaganda aimed at convincing people that the vaccine is a menace rather than a lifesaving, economy-rescuing miracle.

'Scariest of all? It could actually work.

'I’ve been following the anti-vaccine community on and off for years, watching its members operate in private Facebook groups and Instagram accounts, and have found that they are much more organized and strategic than many of their critics believe. They are savvy media manipulators, effective communicators and experienced at exploiting the weaknesses of social media platforms. (Just one example: Shortly after Facebook and YouTube began taking down copies of “Plandemic” for violating their rules, I saw people in anti-vaccine groups editing it in subtle ways to evade the platforms’ automated enforcement software and reposting it.)

'In short, the anti-vaxxers have been practicing for this. And I’m worried that they will be unusually effective in sowing doubts about a Covid-19 vaccine for several reasons.

'First, because of the pandemic’s urgency, any promising Covid-19 vaccine is likely to be fast-tracked through the testing and approval process. It may not go through years of clinical trials and careful studies of possible long-term side effects, the way other drugs do. That could create an opening for anti-vaccine activists to claim that it is untested and dangerous, and to spin reasonable concerns about the vaccine into widespread, unfounded fears about its safety.

'Second, if a vaccine does emerge, there is a good chance that leading health organizations like the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation or the World Health Organization will have a hand in producing or distributing it. If that’s the case, anti-vaccine activists, who have been crusading against these groups for years, will have plenty of material stockpiled to try to discredit them. They are already taking aim at Mr. Gates with baseless conspiracy theories claiming that he created and is trying to profit from the virus. These theories will be amplified, and the attempts to discredit leading virus research efforts will intensify as the vaccine nears.

'Third, if and when a Covid-19 vaccine is approved for widespread use, people may be required to take it before being allowed to fly on certain airlines, attend certain schools or enter certain businesses. That’s a good idea, public health-wise, but it would play into some of the worst fears of the anti-vaccine movement.'


On the other hand...

'There is some reason for hope. Recent surveys have suggested that most Americans would take a Covid-19 vaccine if one were available today. Even politicians who have expressed skepticism about vaccines in the past, including President Trump, are rooting for one that can prevent the disease. And some public health experts I spoke to said public pressure to end the pandemic and return to normal life might overpower anti-vaccine activism.

“People are seeing the toll of Covid-19 all around,” said Kasisomayajula Viswanath, a professor of health communication at the Harvard School of Public Health. “My guess is that if there is a successful vaccine, especially in the absence of treatment, people may discount the anti-vaccine groups.”'


As usual my own chief concern here is the children. In other words, if their parents are against the vaccine and turn out to be wrong about it.

Consider for example,. the polio vaccine: https://vaccines.procon.org/vaccine-his ... act/polio/
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby MagsJ » Wed May 13, 2020 7:22 pm

“What if we get a Covid-19 vaccine and half the country refuses to take it?”

Then fucking make it safe then!
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Wait, What! - MagsJ

You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby iambiguous » Wed May 13, 2020 7:35 pm

MagsJ wrote:“What if we get a Covid-19 vaccine and half the country refuses to take it?”

Then fucking make it safe then!


A couple of takes on that from live science: https://www.livescience.com/57488-vacci ... mbers.html
https://www.livescience.com/coronavirus ... trial.html

Still, who gets to decide what being "safe" here means?

For example, sans politics? And, in particular, political prejudices that revolve around, "only I/we get to decide what safe means".
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby MagsJ » Wed May 13, 2020 8:08 pm

iambiguous wrote:
MagsJ wrote:“What if we get a Covid-19 vaccine and half the country refuses to take it?”

Then fucking make it safe then!

A couple of takes on that from live science: https://www.livescience.com/57488-vacci ... mbers.html
https://www.livescience.com/coronavirus ... trial.html

Still, who gets to decide what being "safe" here means?

For example, sans politics? And, in particular, political prejudices that revolve around, "only I/we get to decide what safe means".

What does safe mean, in the context of All? and don’t skirt around the issue Iam, as safe generally means as non-allergenic as can be, for All! or am I wrong here? Please confer..

I don’t know anyone that has died from flu or other such illnesses, so I’m not projecting here, so please take this exchange at face value.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Wait, What! - MagsJ

You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby iambiguous » Wed May 13, 2020 8:27 pm

MagsJ wrote:What does safe mean, in the context of All? and don’t skirt around the issue Iam, as safe generally means as non-allergenic as can be, for All! or am I wrong here? Please confer..


Well, for one thing I am not qualified to make that determination. Like the preponderance of us, I can only rely on the competence and integrity of those in the medical profession who are qualified.

And hope that they themselves are not "my way or the highway" objectivists committed to one or another dogmatic set of political prejudices.

For all? Given the complexity of both human biology and the coronavirus itself, I doubt a one-size-fits-all vaccine will ever be discovered.

I do know this however: that in a medical industrial complex where the bottom line is often the bottom line, money doesn't talk, it screams. But that's just the nature of capitalism, isn't it?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby Gloominary » Wed May 13, 2020 10:59 pm

Some people just refuse to take responsibility for their own health and wellbeing.
They'll consume whatever their authority figures place in the trough without concern, question or criticism.
Just like the people who bought the lie big tobacco and sugar together with government, MSM and allopathy use to tell us, that tobacco and sugar were harmless.
They kept on smoking and eating tons of sugar in spite of their body's many attempts to warn them that something was afoul.
In spite of observational and anecdotal evidence that others were getting sick and dying from tobacco and sugar use.
In spite of activists, marginalized allopaths and naturopaths attempts to warn them.
In spite of the numerous holes and conflicts of interest in the studies supposedly proving tobacco and sugar were harmless.
At no point did they take any of this information into consideration, they were conditioned, groomed to trust only the establishment, the dominant institutions and nothing but.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby MagsJ » Thu May 14, 2020 10:06 pm

iambiguous wrote:
MagsJ wrote:With 1, read into it what you will..
Well, given my own experience with moral and political objectivists, the only thing that can be derived from it, whether in regard to vaccines or any other context involving conflicting goods, is that, yes, it is possible to know what is going on in the world. Why? Because they already do know what is going on.

Which means that if you don't share their own assessment of their own collection of facts then you are wrong.

Necessarily wrong.

Also, the objectivists among us will almost never admit that in regard to an issue as important as this one -- here literally involving life and death -- that they were ever wrong. After all, to note that they were once wrong about something this important, means that they may well be wrong this time too.

At best, some will abandon one objectivist frame of mind for another. Okay, they were wrong before, but now they've seen the light. That was me once.

Some things are not comparable with all else.. I would say that vaccines are one of them.

Why? I hear you ask.. because vaccines and all injectables require ethical scrutiny, much much more than most consumerables, and yet they are not afforded it.

MagsJ wrote:With 2, I’ve researched the matter enough, to make my own valued-judgement on it, that correlates with more than you might think.
I don't doubt that. My point though is that those on the other side can say the same thing. Then what? Then it's back to a thread like this, a debate in which both sides are able to construct reasonable arguments based sets of assumptions, facts and scenarios that the other side are never able to make go away. Not completely.

Here in particular that revolves around political prejudices revolving around views of the government, of Big Brother, of assessments pertaining to the optimal relationship between "I" and "we" and "them". In regard to any particular citizen's freedoms and responsibilites.

The part I root in dasein, but that the objectivists root in God or ideology or reason or moral obligation or nature.

What has that got to do with the question of ethics, in the manufacturing and administering of Vaccinations/all Injectables?

MagsJ wrote:
My point of course is to the extent to which someone might embrace a point of view here that is attached to what I call the psychology of objectivism. The belief that as far as vaccines [and most everything else political] are concerned, they are in touch with the "real me" wholly in sync with "the right thing to do".
..and who might this person, this someone, be?
It could be anyone.

Here I suggest that they explore the points I raise on this thread: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296

Then in regard to vaccines [on this thread] I ask them to note the extent to which their own political prejudices might perhaps be but another manifestation of this. Which back when I was an objectivist -- both God and No God -- it was clearly the case involving myself.

Were you ever a teacher Iam? I feel like I’ve been given homework to do, but anyway.. your suggestion on further investigation into one’s political prejudices, again, has no bearing on ethical Vaccinations/other Injectables..

MagsJ wrote:
Thus they are far less willing even to consider the arguments of others, let alone to moderate their own views in order to negotiate and compromise with those who have conflicting assessments in order to enact actual laws that reflect a broader consensus.
Conflicting.. or he who shouts the loudest? Individual versus conglomerates..
That's the part I root in political economy. The part that revolves around those who have accumulated the most economic power. The part that revolves around my own rendition of the "deep state": viewtopic.php?f=3&t=173789&p=2187045&hilit=bullfrog+films#p2187045

Care to summarise and clarify your stance here?
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Wait, What! - MagsJ

You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby MagsJ » Thu May 14, 2020 10:37 pm

iambiguous wrote:
MagsJ wrote:What does safe mean, in the context of All? and don’t skirt around the issue Iam, as safe generally means as non-allergenic as can be, for All! or am I wrong here? Please confer..
Well, for one thing I am not qualified to make that determination. Like the preponderance of us, I can only rely on the competence and integrity of those in the medical profession who are qualified.

And hope that they themselves are not "my way or the highway" objectivists committed to one or another dogmatic set of political prejudices.

For all? Given the complexity of both human biology and the coronavirus itself, I doubt a one-size-fits-all vaccine will ever be discovered.

I do know this however: that in a medical industrial complex where the bottom line is often the bottom line, money doesn't talk, it screams. But that's just the nature of capitalism, isn't it?

..and because of that we should relinquish all concern up to Capitalism and the Qualified, and hope they all do the right ethical thing.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Wait, What! - MagsJ

You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sat May 16, 2020 10:04 am

On use of US military for vaccine distribution or 'distribution'...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... e=emb_logo
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby MagsJ » Sat May 16, 2020 10:57 am

Wow!

I wonder what will be in the vaccine? :D
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Wait, What! - MagsJ

You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby Gloominary » Sat May 16, 2020 12:29 pm

Argentina Senate Approves New Law Making Vaccines Free and Mandatory

Argentina is taking the anti-vaccine movement — and the reappearance of eradicated illnesses — seriously.

The South American country recently approved a new law, 22.909, that declares vaccination as a national interest and understands immunization as a social good, according to the Argentine newspaper PERFIL.

According to the new law: “Vaccination is of national interest and we understand that research, epidemiological surveillance, decision making based on evidence, acquisition, storage, distribution and provision of vaccines, ensuring the cold chain, as well as its production, is highly important."
Now vaccines and their application are free and mandatory, totally provided by the government in all stages of life. Being vaccinated will be necessary and required for procedures such as entry and exit of the school system every year, processing or renewal of ID, passports, residence, medical procedures for work, prenuptial certificates, and driver's licenses, as well as for the processing of family allowances.

https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/esto-es-lo-que-necesitas-saber-sobre-la-nueva-ley/
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby MagsJ » Sat May 16, 2020 1:36 pm

That article was from December 17th 2018.. I wonder how many other countries had signed up to a mandatory vaccination policy, from around that time?

I’m sure the world is chomping at the bit, in anticipation of having a toxic-cocktail of chems injected into their collective arms.. exciting much? :shock:
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Wait, What! - MagsJ

You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby phyllo » Sat May 16, 2020 1:44 pm

If it protects you against dangerous diseases and it's not very toxic. Hell yeah.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Mon May 25, 2020 1:11 pm

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