Mandatory Vaccination

Discussion of the recent unfolding of history.

ILP, once a Covid-19 vaccination appears, should everyone be forced to get it?

Absolutely
5
36%
Only if the worst case scenario transpires and it's been scientifically proven millions upon millions will die if we don't.
0
No votes
Only if opinion polls demonstrate most people are in favor of it.
0
No votes
Government shouldn't force anyone to get it, but it should forcibly quarantine anyone who hasn't had it in their homes until this whole thing clears up.
2
14%
No way, never.
7
50%
 
Total votes : 14

Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby Gloominary » Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:06 pm

Give em an inch...
It's like some scientists want more and more control over our lives.
What we're witnessing right now from the scientific community may be just the beginning.
They may push the public too far.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:40 pm

Gloominary wrote:Give em an inch...
It's like some scientists want more and more control over our lives.
What we're witnessing right now from the scientific community may be just the beginning.
They may push the public too far.

The positive factor, is that more and more people are turning off the "Mass Media" and searching for "alternative" media, the internet, blogs, youtube, forums, etc.

If the Mass Media can be further destabilized and deplatformed, Trump beating them with "fake news" (and they are), the better it is for everybody.

Trump has been right about one thing more than anything else: the Mass Media Mob *IS* an enemy of the State. Or, in other words, functioning from their own "State" which is categorically different than the Western/US State. It's about competition, and control, over the Meta-Narrative.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby Gloominary » Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:56 pm

Urwrongx1000 wrote:
Gloominary wrote:Give em an inch...
It's like some scientists want more and more control over our lives.
What we're witnessing right now from the scientific community may be just the beginning.
They may push the public too far.

The positive factor, is that more and more people are turning off the "Mass Media" and searching for "alternative" media, the internet, blogs, youtube, forums, etc.

Yup, that's a good thing.
And as big brother subsidizes social media to gain control over it, good alternatives to youtube and so on like bitchute are popping up.
I may list some alternative and social media sites on this thread/elsewhere later.

If the Mass Media can be further destabilized and deplatformed, Trump beating them with "fake news" (and they are), the better it is for everybody.

I agree with Trump on this.
We need a hell of a lot more grassroots, independent media (more grassroots, independent everything for that matter), the more the merrier. A lot of MSM is BS.

Trump has been right about one thing more than anything else: the Mass Media Mob *IS* an enemy of the State. Or, in other words, functioning from their own "State" which is categorically different than the Western/US State. It's about competition, and control, over the Meta-Narrative.

The people have a lot of enemies, sometimes the state itself is their enemy, but the MSM is one of the top 3 or 5 enemies.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:38 am

Gloominary wrote:Give em an inch...
It's like some scientists want more and more control over our lives.
What we're witnessing right now from the scientific community may be just the beginning.
They may push the public too far.
While there are biases in scientists in general, paradigmatic ones, I think it might be better to call 'them' technocrats. It is this 'place' where applications of science, industry and government meet in individuals. It has to do with what gets investigated (incuding of course funding) and what does not. What tools will be attempted to make, and which will not be looked into. How the public is 'educated' about these inventions and how the side-effects and problems are downplayed and poopood via backdoor to media (and front door) PR and legal shenanigans and so on. And while scientists are certainly involved, I think they have blinders and are really like technicians. They focus on their research and what is in front of them, not really looking at wider pictures which also involves expertise not in their usually high specialization. IOW they don't look at politics or economics or psychology or propaganda or what is not being looked at. They are looking at their careers and their line of research. This is not me letting them off the hook and I am sure some few scientists have a more conscious role, but I think in general they are just being used and aimed by the major players. I get pissed at them and their hubris and unjustified dismissals and more, but their more like worker ants than real players.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:18 am

phyllo wrote:Sure. But I'm not seeing that.

I'm mostly seeing a rejection of one group and an embrace of another. That's unequal skepticism.

The rejected "mass media" is simply replaced by YouTube videos and other internet sources. "YouTube doctors" are trusted and "mass media doctors" are mistrusted. The same goes for scientists.

I'm also seeing the idea that experts, doctors, scientists don't have any more knowledge and understanding than the "ordinary man in the street". That's too much skepticism. :lol:

A problem with skepticism is ignorance. How can you evaluate experts, doctors or scientists unless you have a significant knowledge in their area of expertise? You really can't. You're forced to rely on agreement between experts, on governing bodies, educational credentials.
I can understand you taking Gloominary as saying this and he is perhaps saying something more in this direction than I am. But he is basing his reactions to long term study of various experts, government positions, and trends in society. Ask him where his skepticism against these experts is coming from. Find out the long term context of why he is particularly skeptical of certain things and not others. In the last big virus...Swine Flu, SArs...I forget but they had a big vaccine campaign. I don't have the energy to go into it now, but there were so many authority hallucinations, mistreatments, and enormous mistakes and corporate irresponsibility around vaccine manufacture at that time
that some skepticism needs to be on the table. And that's just one part or one of the areas of what Gloominary, I think correctly, is seeing as a trend in the way elites are moving society.

It makes sense to express and argue for a skepticism aimed at power and monolithic positions in society. People who mention anything that remotely looks like a conspiracy theory are labeled traitors, evil, mad, per se.

Of course people with marginalized position are going to aim their primary skepticism at hegemonic forces. And this is good. the authorities can then present their case in a more rational way then they have. Your suggestion earlier, I think it was you, that one of their motivations for lying might be to control us because they don't trust us with the truth...that's a habit they better unlearn, if that is the motivation. It has long term terrible consequences even if there goals and methods are benign. IOW it is bad for them and those they are trying to help. Western governments and corporations are perfectly capable of using scientists and experts in the ways the old Soviet countries did.

Further this....
I'm also seeing the idea that experts, doctors, scientists don't have any more knowledge and understanding than the "ordinary man in the street". That's too much skepticism
is a radical oversimplification. There are plenty of experts skeptical about what is going on. And scientists are not simply honest monads isolated in their labs. They are connected to governmetns and corporations or universities that are connected to both. They are affected by paradigms and their own economic needs and so on, often not consciously. Experts contesting all sorts of things from wars, to pandemic policies, to should transpersons be allowed to compete in sports, to conspiracy theories are shut down professionally damaged or fired, mocked in the media, lose funding and potential funding, and sometimes worse. You literally have no idea what large percentages of experts think about a wide range of issues.

You can paint it as simply like Gloominary just listens to some guy with no skills and knowledge who he finds in a blog online and your beliefs come from experts, and feel confident and smug you are right and he is a silly fool. Or you could spend time actually finding out where he has gotten his ideas over a long period of time.

As a society we are terrible at deailng with minority opinions. And the West has a long history of doing this, for example in relation to other cultures.

Even if it turns out that the skeptics were wrong, in this case, society has a diseased and extremely dangerous set of habits in dealing with minority opinions. You little mocking emoji being a tiny trivial example of the attitude. There's no shortage of experts critical of the current policies.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby phyllo » Thu Apr 09, 2020 4:49 pm

By all means, dig up some experts and discuss the merits or demerits of vaccinations ... forced or unforced.

It would make a nice change.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby MagsJ » Thu Apr 09, 2020 5:40 pm

I had a telephone consultation with a medical professional on Tuesday, and enquired about fears over a vaccine being mandatory.. she said it’s very highly unlikely, and would be available under the current flu vaccination scheme, that of choice.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby phyllo » Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:17 pm

MagsJ wrote:I had a telephone consultation with a medical professional on Tuesday, and enquired about fears over a vaccine being mandatory.. she said it’s very highly unlikely, and would be available under the current flu vaccination scheme, that of choice.

So you're fine.

However, "herd immunity" requires a certain critical percentage of the population to be vaccinated or to acquire immunity by exposure.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby MagsJ » Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:35 pm

phyllo wrote:
MagsJ wrote:I had a telephone consultation with a medical professional on Tuesday, and enquired about fears over a vaccine being mandatory.. she said it’s very highly unlikely, and would be available under the current flu vaccination scheme, that of choice.

So you're fine.

However, "herd immunity" requires a certain critical percentage of the population to be vaccinated or to acquire immunity by exposure.

The vaccine is much more likely to kill me than the virus ever will, which begs the question.. why the hell do they put in them what they do? and for what valid and sound reason?

Make vaccines safe again??
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby phyllo » Thu Apr 09, 2020 10:06 pm

The vaccine is much more likely to kill me than the virus ever will, which begs the question.. why the hell do they put in them what they do? and for what valid and sound reason?
Brief explanations :

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/additives.htm

https://www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-biol ... d-vaccines
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby Gloominary » Thu Apr 09, 2020 10:29 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Gloominary wrote:Give em an inch...
It's like some scientists want more and more control over our lives.
What we're witnessing right now from the scientific community may be just the beginning.
They may push the public too far.
While there are biases in scientists in general, paradigmatic ones, I think it might be better to call 'them' technocrats. It is this 'place' where applications of science, industry and government meet in individuals. It has to do with what gets investigated (incuding of course funding) and what does not. What tools will be attempted to make, and which will not be looked into. How the public is 'educated' about these inventions and how the side-effects and problems are downplayed and poopood via backdoor to media (and front door) PR and legal shenanigans and so on. And while scientists are certainly involved, I think they have blinders and are really like technicians. They focus on their research and what is in front of them, not really looking at wider pictures which also involves expertise not in their usually high specialization. IOW they don't look at politics or economics or psychology or propaganda or what is not being looked at. They are looking at their careers and their line of research. This is not me letting them off the hook and I am sure some few scientists have a more conscious role, but I think in general they are just being used and aimed by the major players. I get pissed at them and their hubris and unjustified dismissals and more, but their more like worker ants than real players.

Good point, it may be better to call them technocrats.
The technocrats occupy an interesting juncture where science and technology meet business, politics and media.
And there's nothing necessarily wrong with occupying that juncture.
The trouble comes when they have no respect for democracy or individual and intellectual liberty, and when they don't have our best interests at heart or in mind.
As a populist, democracy and liberty precede technocracy,
Last edited by Gloominary on Thu Apr 09, 2020 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Thu Apr 09, 2020 10:44 pm

Gloominary wrote:Good point, it may be better to call them technocrats.
The technocrats occupy an interesting juncture where science and technology meets business, politics and media.
And there's nothing necessarily wrong with occupying that juncture.
The trouble comes when they have no respect for democracy or individual and intellectual liberty, or when they don't have our best interests at heart or in mind.
As a populist, democracy and liberty precede technocracy,

Yes, and they tend to have (human)weaknesses without realizing it. That last part of that is key. It translates into hubris and contempt for critics.
They think that if it can be done, it should be done. I am with the Amish as far as the idea that things should be looked at to see their subtler effects on experiencing life, community, self, etc.
They think that if someone cannot be measured or is too hard at this time to measure, we can just pretend that only those things that can be measured matter. You can see this with things like mandatory drug testing where they will admit to a tiny degree of false positives, but not the very hard to track effects around power dynamics, what some people have the power to test others SAYS to children and adults about what they are and how much they matter. And the effects of growing up where this is the de facto message of mandatory drug testing in schools and workplaces.
They are not trained in introspection or philosophy, so to not have insight in how they themselves may be manipulated by power brokers, may not realize what they do not want to notice because of how they might feel about how they are being used, have little insight into paradigmatic biases and more.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby MagsJ » Thu Apr 09, 2020 11:08 pm

phyllo wrote:
The vaccine is much more likely to kill me than the virus ever will, which begs the question.. why the hell do they put in them what they do? and for what valid and sound reason?
Brief explanations :

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/additives.htm

https://www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-biol ... d-vaccines

You know they’re lab-created/synthetic and not naturally occurring components, right?

..and therein the problem lies, and was created.. in the lab.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby phyllo » Fri Apr 10, 2020 1:35 am

I know. That's not necessarily bad or harmful. And the benefits of the vaccine outweigh the risks or harm for most people.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby MagsJ » Fri Apr 10, 2020 8:23 am

phyllo wrote:I know. That's not necessarily bad or harmful. And the benefits of the vaccine outweigh the risks or harm for most people.

That’s not what I’ve been hearing from the experts on the other side.. those against Bill Gates, the Clinton Foundation, the deep state, and what they plan to do.

Even these experts are saying what I’ve been saying, that how can they issue a mandatory vaccine and nobody know what is in it.. also, once a vaccine has been deemed safe they often swap it for another (untested toxic) one.

Next.. 5g
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby phyllo » Fri Apr 10, 2020 2:11 pm

The medical professionals are interested in producing safe and effective vaccines. They are not going to be intentionally producing toxic, dangerous and harmful vaccines. They are not going to be "swapping in" toxic ones.

We are not surrounded by unethical, immoral, malicious and evil people. Most people are caring.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby Gloominary » Fri Apr 10, 2020 5:01 pm

phyllo wrote:The medical professionals are interested in producing safe and effective vaccines. They are not going to be intentionally producing toxic, dangerous and harmful vaccines. They are not going to be "swapping in" toxic ones.

We are not surrounded by unethical, immoral, malicious and evil people. Most people are caring.

:lol:

'Why did you throw (insert population group here) into the ovens'?

'I was just following orders'.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby Gloominary » Fri Apr 10, 2020 5:12 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentation_in_the_United_States#1960s

And that's just what's on record, on Wikipedia, which's ran by Marxists.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby Gloominary » Fri Apr 10, 2020 5:42 pm



We thought lobotomies were loving and scientific back then, but we're sure giving babies consecutive aluminum and mercury injections is loving and safe now.

'But our checks and balances are better today than they were yesterday'.

But they could still be massively improved.

They rush vaccines to market shortly after testing only hundreds of people.

The studies are overseen by people with ties to vaccine companies.

Ultimately we the people are the real checks and balances, if thousands of people and parents didn't successfully sue and press big pharma to make changes, no doubt they'd be injecting us with many times more soft metals than they are today.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby phyllo » Fri Apr 10, 2020 5:47 pm

You don't have anything which shows that vaccines are harmful do you have to refer to come vague dangers.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby Gloominary » Fri Apr 10, 2020 5:51 pm

Vaccine companies are successfully sued for damages all the time in the US, it's been proven in court, that they're harmful.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby phyllo » Fri Apr 10, 2020 5:57 pm

Coffee is harmful too because some granny successfully sued McDonald's after she spilled hot coffee on herself.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby Gloominary » Fri Apr 10, 2020 5:59 pm

It can be harmful, a strong case can be made they make that shit too hot.
Last edited by Gloominary on Fri Apr 10, 2020 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby Gloominary » Fri Apr 10, 2020 6:10 pm

Nothing is absolutely proven, but being successfully sued for damages in court by thousands of people is a mark against your product.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccination

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Fri Apr 10, 2020 9:13 pm

phyllo wrote:You don't have anything which shows that vaccines are harmful do you have to refer to come vague dangers.
In the US vaccine companies are not liable, however one can sue via the government. IOW taxpayer money can be used as compensation if you can show that vaccines have damaged you or your child. The court is extremely biased against suit claims, however so far they have paid out 4 billion dollars.

Further the way you responded to makes 'we aren't surrounded by' immoral people or people who mean to do us harm. That's a straw man argument. Very few people are arguing anything remotely like that. Beyond that it just assumes, but carefully does not assert, that to contaminate a vaccine or to ignore data, needs to be done by a large percentage of the corporation making the vaccine (not to speak of 'all the people we are surrounded by'. But it doesn't require that. You would not need many people at all.

It's interesting that many of the critics of vaccines talk about the additives and adjuvants in the vaccines. In the Swine flu virus, the government of germany and other power brokers had pure vaccines made without all these extra chemicals. It was discovered. This was embarrassing. It was supposedly not going to be distributed.

But what did they know. Why would a company go along with giving the most powerful people a vaccine that should be less effective than the one they would be distributing to less powerful people. REally, that's just not how corporations work.

Right now the precautionary principle is hardly used at all. GM foods spread with little public information extremely rapidly including into farm animals aimed at food. Wireless technologies includling the one that scares a lot of doctors and scientists 5G is ready to come out now. Nano tech is spreading with little debate, despite the fact that nano particles are showing up in animals brains. That's right in animal brains and probably ours.

Very few people believe that if you get a vaccine you will drop over. A few do. A few others developed problems quite fast. The primary worry is the longer term effects on the immune and nervous systems. More subtle effects that will be incredibly hard to distinguish from the effects of all these other technological experiments.

I really can't get how someone coming from the Soviet Union cannot imagine that groups of people with power might put at risk people's health, not take enough care, or knowingly expose people to dangerous things. because they don't care or because they intend to.

What will it take for people to consider it possible that power can corrupt, that governments can do horrible things and hide them and that corporations can. I understand wanting more evidence, but in responding to Mags it is as if she is per se silly to even consider it.
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