I’m just going to say this to trumpers outright

Discussion of the recent unfolding of history.

Re: I’m just going to say this to trumpers outright

Postby Gloominary » Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:25 am

Parodites wrote:"Our symbols can only approximate or relatively represent the world, "

Our symbols don't represent the world. They represent an abstraction of the world, and other symbol-systems or mathematics represent an abstraction of that abstraction, and an abstraction of an abstraction of an abstraction, all the way up to the infinite. These supra-physical abstractions, outside of space and time, can be used to deconstruction both the world and any other symbol-system lower than them on that hierarchy, which is useful as much as in philosophy as in the sciences.

You sound like an idealist or solipsist.
An abstraction is (or ought to be if we want it to have truth value) a form of representation of the world.
The world is what we experience, feel, interact with, perceive and sense both externally, like the wind and rain on my skin, and internally, our various mental processes, for we too are a part of the world.
We notice patterns in these experiences, similar stuff keeps casually reappearing.
Pattern recognition is what abstractions are.
Our ability to recognize patterns is both limited, and made possible by our cognition, which somewhat varies from person to person and people to people like any faculty.
It's malleable to some extent, but not infinitely.

There is no neat internal and external division, everything within us overlaps with everything without.
Last edited by Gloominary on Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: I’m just going to say this to trumpers outright

Postby Gloominary » Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:06 am

Parodites wrote:"We're dealing with the smallest sorts of things we can perceive, we don't possess the instruments capable of distinguishing them, yet, but I suspect we will some day."

What does it mean to "see" something for example, either with your own eyes or through a camera? It means to bounce a photon off an object and capture it via reflection. Well quantum particles are so small and fragile that the photon actually fucks them up, and distorts or destroys them. So we can't measure them for that reason. There is nothing magical or spooky about it.

My point wasn't that there's something spooky going on, but that types of subatomic particles, like electrons, neutrons, protons and photons probably only appear to be exactly the same, cookie cutter like, because our instruments are presently too blunt to detect variation between and within them, just as the surface of a table may appear smooth to the naked eye, but under a microscope we see cracks, crevices, peaks, valleys, and life forms, all manner of variation.
They're probably immensely complex, worlds unto themselves, worlds within worlds, but they're at the periphery of what we can presently perceive, so they appear simple and indistinct.

My larger point is that particles, parts, simplicity, solidity and stability, yang if you will, isn't more real than waves, wholes, complexity, unsolidity and instability, yin (similarly the mind isn't a by-product of the brain or vice versa, they're different names and ways of apprehending the same thing).
Examine the former carefully and you will find some of the latter and vice versa.
But the atomist/individualist only sees things in terms of units, compartmentally.

Atomism/Individualism doesn't encompass holism/collectivism, anymore than holism/collectivism encompasses atomism/individualism, you have to harmonize the two, if you're to attain the golden mean, which's imperative.
Moderation in virtually all things, nothing in excess or deficiency, metaphysically or socially.
But balance isn't uniform, it somewhat varies because situations do.
There's a need for both generalization, and particularization.
There's no such thing as perfect balance, but we can improve.

Individualism doesn't encompass the insights of conservative (greater group dominates), progressive (lesser groups dominate) or other forms of (collaborative, separative, unitive, etcetera) collectivism, all by itself, it's their negation.

Agency isn't better at explaining variation in human behavior than biological and cultural determinism on the right hand, or discrimination and the environment on the left.

There're different forms of individualism too, for example is intellectual property a legitimate form of property?
Or is something yours, just because you pay taxes on it?
What if you're not physically occupying or using it?
What if you never have, never will or can't physically occupy or use it?
Is government and the commons legitimate?
Where does the self and its property end and otherness begin?
Can you be violated by another's pollution, pollutants in the air, water and soil, noise pollution?
What're we to do with children and other sentient species?
Can you sell yourself into serfdom or slavery?
Are building codes necessary?
Buyer beware?
Individualism is far from settled, it's not this monolithic, middle ground between different forms of collectivism.
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Re: I’m just going to say this to trumpers outright

Postby MagsJ » Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:49 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:Too bad I never tried pure DMT before quitting drugs. Woulda liked to.

..again, I fail to see the appeal in that.. or any drug.

Pedro I Rengel wrote:Just... I feel like I lived many lives in many universes, not literally but just in terms of the multiplicity and variety I guess. I don't... Um... I saw the space between air?

Hahaha! ok, that’s pretty cool.. atomic, even. ;)

What did it look like.. this space between air?

Pedro I Rengel wrote:Maybe maybe, but a light weight, easily triggered... by what?

Well.. during doing weights today, I got high from having to breathe more, and have remained light-headed and high off of air, ever since.. is why, me and drugs can never be friends, you see.

Pedro I Rengel wrote:There is also LSA, which is a close cousin of LSD and often sold as LSD, you can get it from Morning Glory seeds for example. That is much more what you mention, like colors and haze. Movement leaves tracks. It's awesome. LSD can do that too, but with LSA it has less transcendent meaning when it happens lol and is more exclusively about that. Playing with your senses. but never, I never had the senses actually meld, or my meaning generating centers fuse with my sensory world, so as to let me smell loud or see the color of a letter. I saw enough though that I find it incontroversial for it to be claimed.

I’ve been reading that loads of everyday produce can make us high, and there’s nothing I can do about that, in having to ingest psychedelia-causing produce.. and Organic produce, probably even moreso.

Eat more vegetables, get high! a new slogan for the farming community. lol
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Wait, What! - MagsJ

You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: I’m just going to say this to trumpers outright

Postby MagsJ » Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:31 pm

phoneutria wrote:it takes you really deep within yourself, where the gods live

Like what prayer and meditation does?

Does it put one in a meditative state or a trance, and is it a subtle effect and not a WHAM to do head? like what teachers do.. though my teachers never had to hit me.. maybe once. :|
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Wait, What! - MagsJ

You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: I’m just going to say this to trumpers outright

Postby MagsJ » Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:55 am

Pedro I Rengel wrote:"What would you propose otherwise? experience over education, so street-smarts over book-smarts? or how about a combination of both? "

Yeah, fuck it, get a job.

Get a job. Study maybe a trade, a technical degree. Fuck you need some preacher kissing your ass for?

I agree that Apprenticeships and Technical Qualifications are the way to go, in an ever-changing and demanding vocational landscape.

Pedro I Rengel wrote:You studied Art. That is, of course, a trade.

Well.. my final qualification took was Graphic Design, but yes.. Art for almost a decade. It’s kept me in-work ever since, but ill-health has kept me out of work in recent years, but I see the future as a new awaiting adventure of exciting uncertainty.

Pedro I Rengel wrote:I cannot think of a single Great Person that graduated from college. Except ones that in their success, aroused the vengeful anger precisely of Colleges and College types.

Whereas I cannot tell you how many people I have met that have made fortunes without even finishing High School, to the great "contempt" and chagrin of college graduates.

That is true, more often than not, but exceptions/rules etc. for some. I know I would have earned more money, much quicker, if I had left the education system sooner.. but I loved learning.

Pedro I Rengel wrote:Lol Mags, by being a conservative you are already on the wrong side of that coin.

As a British Conservative, I am not an anomaly.. as a creative and a Caribbean Conservative, I am an anomaly.

Many more working class voters, voted Conservative in last month’s General Election, than in previous elections.. the country wants Brexit, so the Referendum voters definitely did know what they were voting for.. how rude of them to say we didn’t.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Wait, What! - MagsJ

You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: I’m just going to say this to trumpers outright

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:39 am

Democracy is a stone in their shoe.
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Re: I’m just going to say this to trumpers outright

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:40 am

I love learning too btw.

Pretty much why I left college.

Art is one thing. But go into a humanities career and prepare to be brain bleached.
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Re: I’m just going to say this to trumpers outright

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:41 am

That's the beauty of art and philosophy.

Aside from brick-laying, the only objective subjects out there.
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Re: I’m just going to say this to trumpers outright

Postby Meno_ » Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:12 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:That's the beauty of art and philosophy.

Aside from brick-laying, the only objective subjects out there.




Objective subjects , now to talk literally of an anomaly! Biggy, must pick and choose

Sorry Biggy, just couldn't resist it.
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Re: I’m just going to say this to trumpers outright

Postby phoneutria » Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:49 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:I love learning too btw.

Pretty much why I left college.

Art is one thing. But go into a humanities career and prepare to be brain bleached.


Art School and the art world in general has been so completely dominated by the LGBT and their sympathizers that creation has become a secondary goal to spreading propaganda.
I haven't gone to art school, but have a lot of friends who dropped out of it for the reasons above.

It seems to have become reprehensible, almost, to depict classical beauty.
Every new piece I make seems to 'trigger' someone or another because they are not as beautiful as my model, and then come the inquiries about why I am not making art that makes people feel good. Why do I not idealize ugliness, why am I purveying the 'male gaze'...

Creating a world where people feel good. What a huge fucking pile of bullshit.
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Re: I’m just going to say this to trumpers outright

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:02 pm

That is what it's all about girl.

For us anyway.

Even worse, this "safe world" has been weaponized by darker forces on a political level.

Or maybe it's just the trailer trash talking.
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Re: I’m just going to say this to trumpers outright

Postby MagsJ » Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:10 am

Pedro I Rengel wrote:I love learning too btw.

Pretty much why I left college.

Art is one thing. But go into a humanities career and prepare to be brain bleached.

What were you studying when you left college? It shows in one’s writing, when a person loves learning.. it’s like a drug/a pull, that draws you in, but happily so.

I’ve always been a sucker for job satisfaction, and so stayed in the creative-industry lane.. veered off it for a number of years, only to become desperately unhappy, and veer back in.

Pedro I Rengel wrote:That's the beauty of art and philosophy.

Aside from brick-laying, the only objective subjects out there.

Lol.. brick-laying itself is an art form, especially in this instance.

Yeah.. Art Philosophy and Science can be combined, to make beautiful things..
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Wait, What! - MagsJ

You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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