What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor?

Discussion of the recent unfolding of history.

Re: What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor?

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:35 pm

WendyDarling wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1Q67tAUiMg
A public recommendation calling for an investigation is Trump admitting to having forced the issue in private? Is that your evidence?

If he had forced it in private, why would he call for it publically?


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Re: What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor?

Postby WendyDarling » Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:26 am

I really didn't know that Trump had publicly asked for investigations to occur and it was my fault for not being more precise with my wording about what needed to be in the video.

I will admit that the public announcement to investigate Biden was in poor taste because of its timing. A real investigation should have been conducted before Biden announced his candidacy. However, Trump's speech was not any more illegal than any candidate saying anything publicly about another candidate. To speak publicly about another candidate is not illegal. For instance, candidate Steyer saying that Trump is a liar, a fraud, and a business failure. Or when Trump said that Hillary had bleached her server illegally.

Trump did not illegally force Ukraine's President or any Ukraine officers to investigate Biden, but if he did I would definitely be more supportive of his impeachment.

Is congress within its' rights to subpoena all personal information about anybody? Or does there have to be sufficient reasoning for it? Like does a court have to order it or is it up to the whims of Congress what they request?
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I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor?

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Dec 23, 2019 3:18 am

WendyDarling wrote:I really didn't know that Trump had publicly asked for investigations to occur and it was my fault for not being more precise with my wording about what needed to be in the video.

I will admit that the public announcement to investigate Biden was in poor taste because of its timing. A real investigation should have been conducted before Biden announced his candidacy. However, Trump's speech was not any more illegal than any candidate saying anything publicly about another candidate. To speak publicly about another candidate is not illegal. For instance, candidate Steyer saying that Trump is a liar, a fraud, and a business failure. Or when Trump said that Hillary had bleached her server illegally.

Trump did not illegally force Ukraine's President or any Ukraine officers to investigate Biden, but if he did I would definitely be more supportive of his impeachment.

Is congress within its' rights to subpoena all personal information about anybody? Or does there have to be sufficient reasoning for it? Like does a court have to order it or is it up to the whims of Congress what they request?


K: first things last: let us say, congress subpoenas Al Capone for his information....
he would of course complain that it is private, personal information and outside
of government intervention....but he would have appeared to have committed
crimes.. but without that information, you can't prove it.. thus we cannot, under
your reasoning, subpoena Capone because it is a "whim" of congress.....

I bring this up because it was evasion of taxes that brought Capone down..
not any thing else he did....

now the next point, he wasn't just speaking publicly about another candidate,
he was trying to get some foreign power to investigate that political rival...
he wasn't talking trash about Biden...

"Biden is an idiot"..that would be talking trash about Biden...
he was trying to do something besides talking
trash about Biden, which is get information about Biden... not talking trash....
that is a major difference from what you are talking about.....

IQ45 has a pattern which is attempting to get foreign governments to
investigate political rivals.. you yourself have mentioned his attempt
to get Russia to hack Clinton's e-mails which they did.. influenced the
election, didn't it?

that same type of illegal actions is what is occurring here...
this time with the Ukraine and China... he isn't trying to talk
trash about Biden, he is trying to get those countries to do his
dirty work....and that is the crime against the constitution that he
committed.....trying to use foreign governments to investigate
his political rivals... that is the problem and what you Trumpistas
cannot see....

How does getting the Ukraine to investigate a several year old
case in a foreign country become draining the swamp? it doesn't...…
because it wasn't about anything, anything at all about
corruption in our so called "American swamp"...

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Re: What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor?

Postby Sociocraft » Mon Dec 23, 2019 4:18 am

I want to make a few points.

A) Just because someone withholds money from someone, then investigates an associate of theirs, doesn't mean they withheld money from them, to, investigate an associate of theirs, they may have withheld it for other reasons.

B) Impeachment is a charge, not a conviction.

From a legal standpoint (but not from an intellectual or social standpoint), innocence is assumed until proven otherwise.

If this goes to trial, which it probably won't, a lot of facts we're not privy at this time could come forward.

C) Just because you, can, charge someone, doesn't mean you necessarily, should.

A policeman can charge a pedestrian for jaywalking or a driver for speeding, doesn't mean they should.

Ask yourselves if the shoe was on the other foot, it was Biden trying to get dirt on Donald, would you really give a damn?

Impeachment, if successful, could cause irrevocable social, political and economic turmoil and tumult, it could even trigger something unexpected, something catastrophic.

Of all the crimes presidents have committed since America's inception, this is a parking violation, it just speaks to how desperate democrats are.

In 3 years of nonstop probing this is the best they could come up with, really?

If anything this is a vindication of Donald, not a mark against him.

Imagine what the democrats would've uncovered about Bush (or themselves) had they probed him with this rigor?

It's the same with trying to character assassinate Kavanaugh and their other shenanigans, they only speak to their powerlust.

It's political rivalry, nothing to do with the welfare of average Americans.
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Re: What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor?

Postby WendyDarling » Mon Dec 23, 2019 8:32 pm

Russia never hacked Clinton's emails, what are you even talking about? Our government pinned it on some poor, non-Russian schmuck by the name Guccifer, when I think Wikileaks said originally it came from a Washington informant in Hillary's camp. It's interesting that the Mueller investigation says Guccifer is a Russian group of hackers now when the original news reports named a sole individual who was not Russian. The original Guccifer was a Romanian or something like that and he worked alone. It's interesting how history is revised and morphed into something else. God, I hope that guy isn't in some black ops site, never to be tried in court or see the light of day. Hold on, I just read the entire Wiki article and it didn't mentioned who hacked into Hillary Clinton's private server, only the DNC server.

Where does it officially say that Russia hacked Clinton's private server? In the Mueller report?
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor?

Postby obsrvr524 » Sat Dec 28, 2019 7:08 am

I posted the following in a different thread before I saw this thread -
obsrvr524 wrote:I would like to hear the actual reasoning behind those accusations [of Mr Trump].

I think there are only 3 possibilities concerning people who believe that:
1) They are deeply deceived.
2) They hope to deceive others.
3) They are just stupid people.

Plus the possible combinations, I guess.

So far I am seeing all three.

First, the idea that a US President is not allowed to politically gain from a presidential decision is absurd. If presidents could not politically gain anything by their decisions, no president would ever be able to do anything that might gain him votes, which is everything he might do.

So for those who believed that Mr Trump's possible gain from the legal and dutiful act of asking a foreign country to assist in an investigation of an obviously suspicious behavior of a former US official, which of those 3 assessments best fits you?

1) Have you been deceived into thinking that Mr Trump would actually be guilty merely because the investigation might also help his own campaign? Realize that no president would ever be able to do anything positive if this was an actual guilt.

2) Are you merely one more person who believes that "the ends justify the means" and your end goal involves getting rid of Mr trump?

3) Is it that you simply cannot understand what I have said here?
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Re: What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor?

Postby WendyDarling » Sat Dec 28, 2019 7:42 pm

obsrvr524 wrote
First, the idea that a US President is not allowed to politically gain from a presidential decision is absurd. If presidents could not politically gain anything by their decisions, no president would ever be able to do anything that might gain him votes, which is everything he might do.


They aren't whining about political gains, only personal gains. They haven't made any real case where Trump's personal gains actually exists separate from his political gains so their line of reasoning falls flat.

obsrvr524 wrote:
I would like to hear the actual reasoning behind those accusations [of Mr Trump].

I think there are only 3 possibilities concerning people who believe that:
1) They are deeply deceived.
2) They hope to deceive others.
3) They are just stupid people.

Plus the possible combinations, I guess.

They are all a combo of all three.

No one ever gave me the legal term describing his high crime or misdemeanor.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor?

Postby Meno_ » Sat Dec 28, 2019 8:13 pm

WendyDarling wrote:obsrvr524 wrote
First, the idea that a US President is not allowed to politically gain from a presidential decision is absurd. If presidents could not politically gain anything by their decisions, no president would ever be able to do anything that might gain him votes, which is everything he might do.


They aren't whining about political gains, only personal gains. They haven't made any real case where Trump's personal gains actually exists separate from his political gains so their line of reasoning falls flat.

obsrvr524 wrote:
I would like to hear the actual reasoning behind those accusations [of Mr Trump].

I think there are only 3 possibilities concerning people who believe that:
1) They are deeply deceived.
2) They hope to deceive others.
3) They are just stupid people.

Plus the possible combinations, I guess.

They are all a combo of all three.

No one ever gave me the legal term describing his high crime or misdemeanor.



Wendy,


Perhaps because there is none, except by a preponderance of evidence
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Re: What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor?

Postby WendyDarling » Sat Dec 28, 2019 8:20 pm

Meno, the crime has to be in the law books, not something made illegal after the fact and prosecuted retroactively.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor?

Postby Meno_ » Sat Dec 28, 2019 8:47 pm

WendyDarling wrote:Meno, the crime has to be in the law books, not something made illegal after the fact and prosecuted retroactively.




"High crimes and misdemeanors" is a phrase from Section 4 of Article Two of the United States Constitution: "The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors."


Treason and Bribery may fit this definition but probative only by preponderance of evidence. The question is apparently definitionally full of holes as signified by partisanship, representative factual issues, determine by ex post facto rationalizations, innuendos, probable direct evidence.

Do any of these fit the bill?

High crimes are then, primary signals of Section 4 , Article 2 , what is secondary is really the primary.


On it's face it appears tautological, but then that is the contadiction that popular preception comes from.
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Re: What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor?

Postby phyllo » Sat Dec 28, 2019 8:59 pm

"High," in the legal and common parlance of the 17th and 18th centuries of "high crimes," is activity by or against those who have special duties acquired by taking an oath of office that are not shared with common persons.[6] A high crime is one that can be done only by someone in a unique position of authority, which is political in character, who does things to circumvent justice. The phrase "high crimes and misdemeanors," used together, was a common phrase when the U.S. Constitution was written and did not require any stringent or difficult criteria for determining guilt but meant the opposite. The phrase was historically used to cover a very broad range of crimes.

The Judiciary Committee's 1974 report "The Historical Origins of Impeachment" stated: "'High Crimes and Misdemeanors' has traditionally been considered a 'term of art', like such other constitutional phrases as 'levying war' and 'due process.' The Supreme Court has held that such phrases must be construed, not according to modern usage, but according to what the framers meant when they adopted them. For example, Chief Justice John Marshall when writing about the phrase "levying war" said, "It is a technical term. It is used in a very old statute of that country whose language is our language, and whose laws form the substratum of our laws. It is scarcely conceivable that the term was not employed by the framers of our constitution in the sense which had been affixed to it by those from whom we borrowed it."[7][8]

Since 1386, the English parliament had used the term "high crimes and misdemeanors" to describe one of the grounds to impeach officials of the crown. Officials accused of "high crimes and misdemeanors" were accused of offenses as varied as misappropriating government funds, appointing unfit subordinates, not prosecuting cases, not spending money allocated by Parliament, promoting themselves ahead of more deserving candidates, threatening a grand jury, disobeying an order from Parliament, arresting a man to keep him from running for Parliament, losing a ship by neglecting to moor it, helping "suppress petitions to the King to call a Parliament," granting warrants without cause, and bribery.[9] Some of these charges were crimes. Others were not.[citation needed] They can be thought of as serious cases of power abuse or dereliction of duty, without a requirement for these cases to be explicitly against the law.

Benjamin Franklin asserted that the power of impeachment and removal was necessary for those times when the Executive "rendered himself obnoxious," and the Constitution should provide for the "regular punishment of the Executive when his conduct should deserve it, and for his honorable acquittal when he should be unjustly accused." James Madison said that "impeachment... was indispensable" to defend the community against "the incapacity, negligence or perfidy of the chief Magistrate." With a single executive, Madison argued, unlike a legislature whose collective nature provided security, "loss of capacity or corruption was more within the compass of probable events, and either of them might be fatal to the Republic."

The process of impeaching someone in the House of Representatives and convicting in the Senate is difficult, made so to be the balance against efforts to easily remove people from office for minor reasons that could easily be determined by the standard of "high crimes and misdemeanors". It was George Mason who offered up the term "high crimes and misdemeanors" as one of the criteria to remove public officials who abuse their office. Their original intentions can be gleaned by the phrases and words that were proposed before, such as "high misdemeanor," "maladministration," or "other crime." Edmund Randolph said impeachment should be reserved for those who "misbehave." Charles Cotesworth Pinckney said, It should be reserved "for those who behave amiss, or betray their public trust." As can be seen from all these references to "high crimes and misdemeanors," the definition or its rationale does not relate to specific offences. This gives a lot of freedom of interpretation to the House of Representatives and the Senate. The constitutional law by nature is not concerned with being specific. The courts through precedence and the legislature through lawmaking make constitutional provisions specific. In this case the legislature (the House of Representatives and the Senate) acts as a court and can create a precedent.

In Federalist No. 65, Alexander Hamilton said, "those offences which proceed from the misconduct of public men, or, in other words, from the abuse or violation of some public trust. They are of a nature which may with peculiar propriety be denominated political, as they relate chiefly to injuries done immediately to the society itself."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_crim ... sdemeanors
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Re: What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor?

Postby WendyDarling » Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:27 pm

What are the current articles of impeachment for Trump? Abuse of Power and Obstruction of Congress.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor?

Postby phyllo » Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:50 pm

Bottom line : you and others think that he did nothing wrong.

Other others disagree.
:-"
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Re: What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor?

Postby WendyDarling » Sat Dec 28, 2019 10:00 pm

Doesn't matter what is thought, facts of misdeeds have to be credible. There are no credible facts as to any misdeed and that's the bottom line.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor?

Postby phyllo » Sat Dec 28, 2019 10:05 pm

There are no credible facts as to any misdeed and that's the bottom line.
That's for a trial to decide. But if the Senate is not going to acquit him without calling any witnesses, then it's just a farce. Isn't it?

A partisan farce.
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Re: What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor?

Postby WendyDarling » Sat Dec 28, 2019 10:18 pm

This impeachment started out as a partisan farce, don't you think? Or are you too deceived to think otherwise? Want to deceive to make others think otherwise or are too stupid to know the difference? All of the above?
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor?

Postby obsrvr524 » Sat Dec 28, 2019 10:25 pm

phyllo wrote:Bottom line : you and others think that he did nothing wrong.

Other others disagree.
:-"

And they can't even name what he did wrong. That alone tells the story.

The US media managed to hypnotize half of the US population into blind, vile hatred. Those people have no idea why they have such deep disdain. They try to rationalize it. They try to get everyone else to share their hate. The media feeds them excuses.

Russia was working on how to accomplish that long ago along with China and the USA. It has been worked out and demonstrated often. Now the effort is to take over the entire world using it.

You can tell when people have been hypnotized because they are given a trigger to panic when their belief bubble is challenged. They can't debate. They can only scream, point figures, throw stones, and run away. They could carefully think their way out of it over time, but they don't and won't. They accept that despite anything said or seen, their minds are firmly, angrily made up.

The Body Snatchers comes to mind. The revealing of the find.

phyllo wrote:
There are no credible facts as to any misdeed and that's the bottom line.

That's for a trial to decide. But if the Senate is not going to acquit him without calling any witnesses, then it's just a farce. Isn't it?

A partisan farce.

Not at all. It is not up to your Senate to call witnesses. And that isn't even the issue going on.

You are one of those deceived.

The holdup has been that the DNC wants to get a promise on how the trial will be conducted before the evidence is presented. The RNC wants to have the case properly presented and THEN decide on witnesses.

No witnesses have been refused by the Senate, only by the House.

You have been and no doubt still are being deceived by your media.
              You have been observed.
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Re: What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor?

Postby phyllo » Sat Dec 28, 2019 10:27 pm

This impeachment started out as a partisan farce, don't you think?
I think that what he did was inappropriate.

The rest of your post, I'm not going to dignify that with a response.
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Re: What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor?

Postby phyllo » Sat Dec 28, 2019 10:31 pm

And they can't even name what he did wrong. That alone tells the story.
High crimes and misdemeanors.
The US media managed to hypnotize half of the US population into blind, vile hatred.
I don't live in your ..... country.

Therefore, I don't give a shit either way. That makes me unbiased.
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Re: What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor?

Postby obsrvr524 » Sat Dec 28, 2019 10:38 pm

phyllo wrote:
This impeachment started out as a partisan farce, don't you think?
I think that what he did was inappropriate.

But can you justify why you think that? What do you think that he did? You have been deceived. Do you want to reveal the truth? Or just spread the power of your deceiver?

phyllo wrote:High crimes and misdemeanors.

Then name the crime or misdemeanor.

phyllo wrote:I don't live in your ..... country.

Therefore, I don't give a shit either way.

Observe the hatred leaking out.

phyllo wrote:That makes me unbiased.

Not at all true. Hypnosis doesn't care where you were born, where you live, nor what you think is right or wrong. You are very clearly bias simply revealed by your responses.
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Re: What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor?

Postby WendyDarling » Sat Dec 28, 2019 10:44 pm

It's all idealistic not realistic hatred bred and fed. Ideally, Trump is a bad man so he must have done bad things. The criminal placed before any apparent crime then they, the crazies, conjure up a crime to brand the already found guilty criminal.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor?

Postby obsrvr524 » Sat Dec 28, 2019 10:47 pm

WendyDarling wrote:It's all idealistic not realistic hatred bred and fed. Ideally, Trump is a bad man so he must have done bad things. The criminal placed before any apparent crime then they, the crazies, conjure up a crime to brand the already found guilty criminal.

And they cannot help themselves. They cannot allow themselves to think anything different without feeling extreme dread and fear. They accept any excuse to attack anyone to avoid that sense. They blindly rage and run away. Fight or flight.
              You have been observed.
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Re: What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor?

Postby phyllo » Sat Dec 28, 2019 10:49 pm

What do you think that he did?
Misused his power.
You have been deceived. Do you want to reveal the truth? Or just spread the power of your deceiver?
](*,)
Then name the crime or misdemeanor.
High crimes and misdemeanors is what is illegal. I posted a wiki about it.
Observe the hatred leaking out.
Being indifferent to the fate of the USA and the president shows hatred?

You're nuts.
Hypnosis doesn't care where you were born, where you live, nor what you think is right or wrong.
:lol:
You are very clearly bias simply revealed by your responses.
So simply by disagreeing with you, it means that I'm biased and hypnotized???

#-o
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Re: What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor?

Postby obsrvr524 » Sat Dec 28, 2019 10:54 pm

phyllo wrote:
What do you think that he did?
Misused his power.

Be specific.

"inappropriate" and "high crimes" are just like saying, "something wrong". Wiki simply proved it for you.

When you try to be specific, you will not merely feel uneasy, you will get into a debate that you will lose.

Try it and reveal your deceiver to the light rather than support and defend your deceiver in the dark.
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Re: What is Trump's high crime or misdemeanor?

Postby WendyDarling » Sat Dec 28, 2019 10:58 pm

*eating popcorn*
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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