It is UNCONSTITUTIONAL and UNJUST

Discussion of the recent unfolding of history.

Re: It is UNCONSTITUTIONAL and UNJUST

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:33 am

If you want to overthrow the US Constitution, Carleas, go ahead and try.

What do you think is going to happen? I'll inform you. The Military will intervene, and then the Country will move far more Conservative-Right than you and the other Socialists can imagine. The insanity of the Liberal-Left would be destroyed within days. Since you claim "there is no Democracy" in the USA, keep pushing, go ahead, until society breaks down. Everybody sees the pressure and bending already. If push comes to shove, those who are faithful to the 2nd Amendment, will win.

You and Nadler have something in common, when he recently stated "the results of elections cannot be counted on".


This "Democratic" Party is, ironically, not for Democracy at all, who knew?!
Urwrongx1000
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3384
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: It is UNCONSTITUTIONAL and UNJUST

Postby Carleas » Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:06 pm

Urwrongx1000 wrote:You're the one claiming US is not Democratic

I'd argue that you are too, since you're claiming that the Constitutional process for removing an elected official is undemocratic. Under a definition of "democratic" that makes the removal of an elected official "undemocratic", the US is not a democracy.

Urwrongx1000 wrote:Since you claim "there is no Democracy" in the USA...

I did not claim that, and the quoted words aren't my words.
User Control Panel > Board preference > Edit display options > Display signatures: No.
Carleas
Magister Ludi
 
Posts: 6109
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 8:10 pm
Location: Washington DC, USA

Re: It is UNCONSTITUTIONAL and UNJUST

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:30 am

Lol, conflating non-democracy of Impeachment under the presumption that it's possible to justly impeach a President,

You know,

When he actually does something wrong or actually commits a High Crime and Misdemeanor???


Impeachment is not supposed to be abused.
It is being abused now. This is UNJUST and UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
The fact that you, DNC, the Liberal-Left, the Mass Media Deep State Establishment, are blind to this fact,
Is demonstration that you do not see the irony of "Democrats" destroying Democracy.
Urwrongx1000
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3384
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: It is UNCONSTITUTIONAL and UNJUST

Postby Carleas » Sun Dec 15, 2019 3:16 pm

Urwrongx1000 wrote:When he actually does something wrong or actually commits a High Crime and Misdemeanor???

Right, but the arbiter of this question, the body empowered by the Constitution to decide if that happened, is Congress, through the process of impeachment in the House and a trial in the Senate. The process that's currently being used to answer this question with respect to Trump.


Relatedly, I asked this question to Obsrvr earlier, and I'm curious what you would say:
Carleas wrote:Using the powers of your office to solicit foreign interference in an election by withholding military aid is a legitimate problem. Do you disagree? I'm not asking if you think that's what Trump did, I'm asking if you think that that is a misuse of the powers of the office.
User Control Panel > Board preference > Edit display options > Display signatures: No.
Carleas
Magister Ludi
 
Posts: 6109
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 8:10 pm
Location: Washington DC, USA

Re: It is UNCONSTITUTIONAL and UNJUST

Postby Meno_ » Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:32 pm

Carleas wrote:
Urwrongx1000 wrote:When he actually does something wrong or actually commits a High Crime and Misdemeanor???

Right, but the arbiter of this question, the body empowered by the Constitution to decide if that happened, is Congress, through the process of impeachment in the House and a trial in the Senate. The process that's currently being used to answer this question with respect to Trump.


Relatedly, I asked this question to Obsrvr earlier, and I'm curious what you would say:
Carleas wrote:Using the powers of your office to solicit foreign interference in an election by withholding military aid is a legitimate problem. Do you disagree? I'm not asking if you think that's what Trump did, I'm asking if you think that that is a misuse of the powers of the office.



Can I squeeze in an opinion?

I think that the inference here is a balancing act, between if either positions is achieved, there will be unmitigable consequence.

If he is impeached , the risk is foreseeable that the power of Congress will lower the standard of it. Where the opposite party will use it freely as a politocal trigger.

If he is not impeached, the executive will be emboldened and assume more powers, and that will be come commonplace.

So the issue is like between a rock and a hard place.
Damn if they do, damn if they don't.

The Republicans loathed Obama, and are unlikely to let this opportunity to, as they see it as the last chance to stay control of government
Meno_
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7619
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:39 am
Location: Mysterium Tremendum

Re: It is UNCONSTITUTIONAL and UNJUST

Postby Carleas » Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:53 am

I think we're already past the point of no return on increasing the rate of impeachment, but there is also a natural limit to how frequently the public will tolerate the process. Reasonable people don't like impeachment, which is why it's been so hard to get a majority in favor of this impeachment even for a president as manifestly unqualified as this one. So a purely retributive impeachment (assuming the Republicans are able to get a majority in the House soon enough that it's still relevant) will probably not be well received, and would risk a lot more politically than it would gain.

But I also don't think more frequent impeachments are necessarily a bad idea, at least assuming people keep paying attention and it's still perceived as a real possibility that an impeached president will be removed. I don't want a strong executive relative to the other branches, so if the threat can stay real, keeping future presidents more heavily scrutinized would be a positive change.
User Control Panel > Board preference > Edit display options > Display signatures: No.
Carleas
Magister Ludi
 
Posts: 6109
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 8:10 pm
Location: Washington DC, USA

Re: It is UNCONSTITUTIONAL and UNJUST

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Mon Dec 16, 2019 4:45 am

Carleas wrote:Using the powers of your office to solicit foreign interference in an election by withholding military aid is a legitimate problem. Do you disagree? I'm not asking if you think that's what Trump did, I'm asking if you think that that is a misuse of the powers of the office.

There is no "foreign interference" in the US election.

So yes, you're wrong. It's a non-argument. Americans vote. Ukranians do not vote. Russians do not vote. They have no interference.

"Interference" would mean Russians voting, and counting their votes. It would mean trying to annul, invalidate, or void American Voters.


So they only real "interference", is from the "Democrats", who are trying to 'undo' the 2016 election. Falsely accusing the President of a High Crime (there is no crime). And Abusing Power of Congress, by launching an impeachment without fact-witness and no real evidence.
Urwrongx1000
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3384
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: It is UNCONSTITUTIONAL and UNJUST

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Mon Dec 16, 2019 4:50 am

Carleas wrote:a president as manifestly unqualified as this one.

Qualified compared to whom? Hillary? Bush? Obama? Biden?

Trump has arguably done more for the USA than any President has done for the past 30 or 40 years.

He has also pushed hard to secure our borders, which the corrupt Establishment has refused to do for who-knows-how-long.
Urwrongx1000
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3384
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: It is UNCONSTITUTIONAL and UNJUST

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Mon Dec 16, 2019 4:54 am

Carleas wrote:so if the threat can stay real, keeping future presidents more heavily scrutinized would be a positive change.

Based on this, you should be against your own Democratic impeachment (coup) attempt.

It's sloppy. It's open to interpretation (so-called "abuse of power"). There are no High Crimes and Misdemeanors. There is no weight behind it, at all. An "impeachment" based on nothing, is going to damage Democrats, DNC, the liberal-left, for decades to come, hopefully.

Democrats who follow-through and vote for this sham, are a severe embarrassment and corruption to our Constitution, our Republic, our Nation.
Urwrongx1000
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3384
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: It is UNCONSTITUTIONAL and UNJUST

Postby Carleas » Mon Dec 16, 2019 5:35 pm

Urwrongx1000 wrote:There is no "foreign interference" in the US election.

Do you mean to say that there's no such thing as foreign interference in our elections? Like that's just not a coherent concept?
User Control Panel > Board preference > Edit display options > Display signatures: No.
Carleas
Magister Ludi
 
Posts: 6109
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 8:10 pm
Location: Washington DC, USA

Re: It is UNCONSTITUTIONAL and UNJUST

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Tue Dec 17, 2019 3:51 am

Are you implying that Russians or Illegal Immigrants are adding their 'votes' to our election?

Are you implying that votes aren't being counted?

What "interference" are you talking about, exactly?


If you're talking about foreign money being used or against US politicians, that is a non-issue. It is not a threat to US Democracy. Rather, it's a straw-man proposed by Democrats and the Liberal-Left as a way to Scapegoat their losses in the 2016 election.

Anything else?
Urwrongx1000
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3384
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: It is UNCONSTITUTIONAL and UNJUST

Postby Carleas » Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:35 am

Urwrongx1000 wrote:What "interference" are you talking about, exactly?

I was talking in the abstract to get an idea of what you thought was legitimate grounds for impeachment.

But, in the actual case, the foreign interference being solicited would be a criminal investigation of a political rival. Would a foreign government arresting a candidate be election interference? Does motive matter? Does it matter what country we're talking about?
User Control Panel > Board preference > Edit display options > Display signatures: No.
Carleas
Magister Ludi
 
Posts: 6109
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 8:10 pm
Location: Washington DC, USA

Re: It is UNCONSTITUTIONAL and UNJUST

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Tue Dec 17, 2019 5:57 am

I know you're talking abstractly because all you have are abstractions.

There is no "Interference" in the 2016 election. There is no "Interference" in the 2020 election. Except, your Coup attempt, which is illegal, unmerited, not to mention UNCONSTITUTIONAL and UNJUST. That's the only "interference" I see. It is an attempt to invalidate, nullify, and void the Vote, Voice, and Will of the majority the American people. Essentially it is an attempt to destroy the First Amendment. You, and the DNC, want to 'silence' and destroy the Will of all those who voted for Trump. The degree of this corruption goes all the way to the heart and core of Western Civilization.

The Democrats are trying to destroy the votes of the Majority (Electoral College) of this country, right now.

Russia? Ukraine? Nothing. They aren't voting. They are convincing US voters. They aren't counted. There is no "foreign interference". To claim this, is to presume some magical Voodoo of a foreign country, as-if they were (magically) controlling US voters and politicians. This is your presumption.
Urwrongx1000
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3384
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: It is UNCONSTITUTIONAL and UNJUST

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:01 am

Worst case, if Trump wanted to Ukraine to investigate a political rival, it's not an impeachable offense.

It's not a High Crime and Misdemeanor.

You might have a case, if there was actual evidence. Meaning, Trump uses taxpayer money, explicitly bribes the Ukrainian president, the bribe transfers, and the investigation goes through. None of this happened. And even if it did, and Ukraine did investigate Biden, then it's still not necessarily a crime, in the sense that Biden may actually be corrupt. And if this is the case, then Trump is more than warranted to ask Ukraine of such. It's dubious under the stipulation of a bribe. But this doesn't matter, because there as no bribe in the first place.

So, your entire position is invalid. And that of the "Democrats", who are actually, against Democracy.
Urwrongx1000
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3384
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: It is UNCONSTITUTIONAL and UNJUST

Postby Meno_ » Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:54 am

Urwrongx1000 wrote:Worst case, if Trump wanted to Ukraine to investigate a political rival, it's not an impeachable offense.


But there is evidence: Trump's own choices for various top political, judicial and diplomatic positions gave testimony that everyone, including Trump was in the loop of trying to pressure

It's not a High Crime and Misdemeanor.

You might have a case, if there was actual evidence. Meaning, Trump uses taxpayer money, explicitly bribes the Ukrainian president, the bribe transfers, and the investigation goes through. None of this happened. And even if it did, and Ukraine did investigate Biden, then it's still not necessarily a crime, in the sense that Biden may actually be corrupt. And if this is the case, then Trump is more than warranted to ask Ukraine of such. It's dubious under the stipulation of a bribe. But this doesn't matter, because there as no bribe in the first place.

So, your entire position is invalid. And that of the "Democrats", who are actually, against Democracy.



Except the quid quod pro to that Trump's own choices for top positions testified to as indisputable, based on conversations in a loop that everyone, including Trump belonged to.

In addition, the argument that a tit for tat corrupt act by Trust is retributive act for the alleged one, is no excuse.

So its either one is wrong, both are right, or none are right, both are wrong or right.

The alleged acts, are not constitutionally supported, at any rate, and the idea of foreign political influence to effect national politics is exactly what the revolutionary war was about. To escape monarchical despotic-dictatorial control was the reason for it.

If, political process is viewed as lacking a transcendental constitution between common historical precedent and present lack of it, then why use the Constitution at all, except open to current interpretation?
Meno_
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7619
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:39 am
Location: Mysterium Tremendum

Re: It is UNCONSTITUTIONAL and UNJUST

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:43 am

No... absolutely wrong.

Foreign influence is under the condition that US Autonomy is at risk. And now, it's not, at all. USA is more autonomous than ever before. So even if Trump did bribe a foreign government to investigate a political rival, and it was "as corrupt as possible", then it would still be arguable about whether it merits Impeachment, because Bribery and "High Crime" as mentioned to be impeachable, would need to be severe.

The Executive branch has authority to exercise foreign policy and diplomacy, almost however he wants to. The "Bribery" inferred by precedent, does not refer to "foreign influence", which is basically meaningless as used as charged by the DNC. There's no such thing as "foreign influence", regarding general US elections, as-if US Citizens were incapable for voting for who they like.

This whole process is an insult to US Democracy.


And your "evidence" is a bunch of Hearsay witnesses, stacked by the DNC, without witness allowed to the President. Completely corrupt!
Urwrongx1000
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3384
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: It is UNCONSTITUTIONAL and UNJUST

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:43 am



As proved through this video, Trump's motives have remained consistent for 30 years.

DNC literally have nothing against him.
Urwrongx1000
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3384
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: It is UNCONSTITUTIONAL and UNJUST

Postby Carleas » Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:36 pm

Carleas wrote:Would a foreign government arresting a candidate be election interference? Does motive matter? Does it matter what country we're talking about?

Re-upping since you didn't answer my questions.

Let's say Trump asked North Korea to 'investigate' and 'arrest' Biden, or whoever wins the Democratic primary? You really think that wouldn't be 1) election interference, and 2) impeachable?
User Control Panel > Board preference > Edit display options > Display signatures: No.
Carleas
Magister Ludi
 
Posts: 6109
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 8:10 pm
Location: Washington DC, USA

Re: It is UNCONSTITUTIONAL and UNJUST

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:12 pm

Would kidnapping a Presidential nominee by a foreign country be interference, what the hell are you talking about?

Investigating for corruption does not mean arrest. It means divulging information. If it leads to arrest within the US then that's fine.

Biden is the one who should be investigated, for gifting his son a million-dollar no-show job, publicly admitting the Quid Pro Quo, and then trying to impeach Trump, for his own wrongdoing. Only literally insane people, the DNC, the liberal-left, could cook up such a scheme. Corruption runs deep.


How degenerate has the US become where Trump is literally being charged for the crimes which Biden has committed? Without evidence, no fact-witnesses, and trying to nullify the vote of all those in the 2016 Election?

Democrats are destroying Democracy, which amounts to treason.
Urwrongx1000
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3384
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: It is UNCONSTITUTIONAL and UNJUST

Postby Ecmandu » Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:16 pm

Nepotism is not anywhere near the scale of this actual treason investigation (whether it’s true or not).

I don’t see why you compare the two.
Ecmandu
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 11066
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:22 am

Re: It is UNCONSTITUTIONAL and UNJUST

Postby Meno_ » Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:35 pm

Ecmandu wrote:Nepotism is not anywhere near the scale of this actual treason investigation (whether it’s true or not).

I don’t see why you compare the two.



I agree. The corruption has two sides, one is the external collusion charge, which have been connected. by intelligence agencies, as politically retroactive and mutually inclusive. The question asked , about which preceded which , or which is more culpable is not relevant here , because :

The constitutional power of checks and balances favoring the executive is a more prominent internal issue.

It appears , that the Ukraine/Russia issue has been projected as even a good thing for the national and constitutional transgressions. It even can be surmised, that the former issue was constructed to mask the larger national one. That is the primary collusion, politically motivated and may have been carefully crafted.

These people , sitting around with not much to do nowedays then to argue partisanship, being paid well and insecure about what's coming up, rather then passing anything, are really pretty corrupt well above the grassroots level. Who indeed, understands them anyway? The American People?

It simply is not as it appears. Period.
Meno_
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7619
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:39 am
Location: Mysterium Tremendum

Re: It is UNCONSTITUTIONAL and UNJUST

Postby Ecmandu » Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:06 pm

Think about it from this perspective:

Treason is punishable by death in the US.

This is what trump is being investigated for.

You don’t think trump and cronies would do anything in their power to avoid being convicted if they actually did it?

I think truth.org has already found that trump has lied over 30,000 times while in office.

I mean, c’mon folks! Really?
Ecmandu
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 11066
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:22 am

Re: It is UNCONSTITUTIONAL and UNJUST

Postby Carleas » Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:22 pm

Urwrongx1000 wrote:Would kidnapping a Presidential nominee by a foreign country be interference, what the hell are you talking about?

Great, so it looks like there's a form of electoral interference that doesn't involve fraudulent voting or falsifying vote counts.

So now, suppose a country has no legitimate grounds for investigation, but they know that even the threat of arrest will significantly impact the outcome of the election. So, suppose France hates Trump, they want him to lose, so they accuse him of being a pedophile and start an investigation into everything he's ever done in France, and make a big old stink of it so it stays in the international news. Electoral interference?

Ecmandu wrote:Treason is punishable by death in the US.

This is what trump is being investigated for.

This isn't true. Trump isn't being charged with treason, he's not even being charged criminally. Some people have suggested various criminal charges, but I think that's unlikely. Even if he were removed, his successor would likely pardon him for Federal offenses, and the drive at the state level to prosecute would fade quickly after he's out of office.
User Control Panel > Board preference > Edit display options > Display signatures: No.
Carleas
Magister Ludi
 
Posts: 6109
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 8:10 pm
Location: Washington DC, USA

Re: It is UNCONSTITUTIONAL and UNJUST

Postby Ecmandu » Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:31 pm

Call me stupid, but eliciting a foreign government to effect and succeed at effecting US elections is textbook treason.

Sounds like those folks in DC are waffling quite a bit with respect to what you posted.
Ecmandu
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 11066
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:22 am

Re: It is UNCONSTITUTIONAL and UNJUST

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:33 pm

Carleas wrote:Electoral interference?

How many times do I need to reword and reassert the case???

"Interference" in US election means the following:

1. Forcing a person who votes, to stay home, against his/her will.
2. Forcing a person who votes, to choose one candidate under duress (gunpoint, threat of violence).
3. Not counting the votes of the people.
4. Counting votes wrongly.
5. Illegal immigrants or non-citizens being counted as votes.

Etc.

The "foreign interference" literally doesn't mean anything. It's McCarthyism. It's a scapegoat, used by the DNC and liberal-left, to excuse their own losses and failures in the 2016 election. It is being as a scapegoat today. It will be used tomorrow, until the corrupt Fake News Media is destroyed or charged with crimes, which they should be. Furthermore, Democratic crimes are corrupt.

Biden giving his son a no-show job in Ukraine, is Nepotism. So again, Dems are guilty of what they accuse Trump. Trump doesn't gift his children money at taxpayer expense. He doesn't need to. He gained his wealth on his own, outside political corruption. Politicians gain their money through lies, extortion, bribery, and corruption. Trump is not a Politician.

So accusing him of such, makes the Democrats look ridiculously stupid and out of touch with reality.


Trump is a successful businessman. He doesn't need money. He has admitted, and it's true, that he's lost money running for and being POTUS. He is anti-corruption. Gulliani is anti-corruption, which is why Democrats and career-politicians, Deep State operatives, are nervous. Because they don't like The Don "firing" all those who thought they could never be fired. Trump needs to fire more government officials. The "rebellion" has started, because Trump is a threat to the Deep State (career operatives who traditionally have had immunity from being fired or oversight from the Executive branch).

The corruption is finally being checked, and this is why the Democrats are lashing-out, to protect and hide their previous corruptions.
Urwrongx1000
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3384
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:10 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Current Events



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users