Implausables?

For discussing anything related to physics, biology, chemistry, mathematics, and their practical applications.

Moderator: Flannel Jesus

Implausables?

Postby Meno_ » Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:41 pm

Are eternity and infinity different?

How do NEEds ( near death experiences relate )?

Will we ever find out?
Meno_
breathless
 
Posts: 9003
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:39 am
Location: Mysterium Tremendum

Re: Implausables?

Postby Ecmandu » Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:43 pm

Meno_ wrote:Are eternity and infinity different?

How do NEEds ( near death experiences relate )?

Will we ever find out?


Eternity is never beginning or ending... a baffling concept that we know is true.

Infinity is beginning but never ending, a crazy concept, but more intuitive to us.
Ecmandu
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 11933
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:22 am

Re: Implausables?

Postby Meno_ » Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:31 am

Ecmandu wrote:
Meno_ wrote:Are eternity and infinity different?

How do NEEds ( near death experiences relate )?

Will we ever find out?


Eternity is never beginning or ending... a baffling concept that we know is true.

Infinity is beginning but never ending, a crazy concept, but more intuitive to us.



I agree, intuition over reason, at times befuddles the mind, and it is increasingly becoming more accepted withon intelligent circles.
Meno_
breathless
 
Posts: 9003
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:39 am
Location: Mysterium Tremendum

Re: Implausables?

Postby Dan~ » Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:01 am

I like the word transfinite more than infinite.
I like http://www.accuradio.com , internet radio.
https://dannerz.itch.io/ -- a new and minimal webside now hosting my free game projects.
ImageImage
Truth is based in sensing, in vision. And we can only see when we are alive.
User avatar
Dan~
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 10666
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 8:14 am
Location: Canada Alberta

Re: Implausables?

Postby Meno_ » Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:19 pm

Dan~ wrote:I like the word transfinite more than infinite.




Infinity? , the word, may be eclipsed by trans-finite, meaning it is through the finite that we can think of the infinite, in order to reach it? Or, is the infinite a given .minimum to aspire to gain a foothold into the paradigmn experience of the finite
Sounds familiar? Or is a mathematical description may be analogous in Cantor's set theory?

More questions then answers dont invalidate the coming closure of the circle.
Meno_
breathless
 
Posts: 9003
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:39 am
Location: Mysterium Tremendum

Re: Implausables?

Postby encode_decode » Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:20 am

Meno_ wrote:
Dan~ wrote:I like the word transfinite more than infinite.




Infinity? , the word, may be eclipsed by trans-finite, meaning it is through the finite that we can think of the infinite, in order to reach it? Or, is the infinite a given .minimum to aspire to gain a foothold into the paradigmn experience of the finite
Sounds familiar? Or is a mathematical description may be analogous in Cantor's set theory?

More questions then answers dont invalidate the coming closure of the circle.

Questions! Where would we be without questions? Maybe it is implausible to think that we could have communication without questions and leave the rest to statements to exchange knowledge, understanding, and the closure of the circle.
I will build a nerdlike structure in 2021
I only meant that the cat knows - or discovers - that we can toss it out a window at any time = "authority". Dogs accept that notion more quickly - not as willing to test it. O:) - obsrvr524
User avatar
encode_decode
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1657
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:07 pm
Location: Nebula

Re: Implausables?

Postby Fixed Cross » Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:11 pm

Meno_ wrote:Are eternity and infinity different?

How do NEEds ( near death experiences relate )?

Will we ever find out?


Of course they are different.


Are there seriously still some true materialists here? Thats so sad.
Its been untenable for a century now, scientifically speaking.


Yes, existence precludes finity. Infinity is necessary for there to be existence.

Eternity is merely one aspect of infinity.
The strong act as they may, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides
Image -
Philosophy Forum - Studio Music - Rhythm Wolf - The Magickal Tree of Life Show
User avatar
Fixed Cross
Doric Usurper
 
Posts: 11527
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:53 am
Location: the black ships

Re: Implausables?

Postby Meno_ » Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:21 pm

Fixed Cross says:


"Yes, existence precludes finity. Infinity is necessary for there to be existence."



>>>>>>>>>> Therefore there fore conscious realization of existence is a caveat to this necessity? Right? We cannot maintain necessity of existence without 'knowing" it.

Knowing ,further, entails realization that time and space are somehow categorically different , yet how do we really ascertain these ideal forms of reference or ideas?

We refer to these formal ideas of reference by presumptive logic

Relatively speaking space and time are somehow dependent on each other but how?

Pretend I was the 'real' Meno, and I need to be enlightened

The questions I would ask back then would not imply urgency, with a need to facilitate 'knowledge' but with a motive to compensate the accelarating rate of insecurity between me , and the other.

The analogy is in need of realization of the newer version between necessary and contingent relationships.

And I am not agreeing with You for the sake of disagreeing, but only to point to axioatic narratives. The structural manifestations become imperative , as You seem to come to Your conclusions

They signal the formation of the required necessity of ideal structural difference ( between space and time: eternity and infinity) for existence or the "knowledge" of existence to continue. Refeterntially it's not probative yet it needs an objective reassemblage into unity.


In other words, how do we come to know this of what we know of these relationships?


It's notable that :

Knowledge comes from the Greek word, Gnosis, signifying knowing through observation or experience.
Meno_
breathless
 
Posts: 9003
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:39 am
Location: Mysterium Tremendum

Re: Implausables?

Postby Gloominary » Tue May 04, 2021 5:37 am

Meno_ wrote:Are eternity and infinity different?

How do NEEds ( near death experiences relate )?

Will we ever find out?

I guess the former refers to temporal endlessness while the latter refers to quantitative and spatial endlessness. :-k

Some people think NDEs are evidence of an immortal (and infinite) soul that survives bodily death.
User avatar
Gloominary
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3604
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:58 am
Location: Canada

Re: Implausables?

Postby encode_decode » Tue May 04, 2021 6:19 am

Gloominary wrote:Some people think NDEs are evidence of an immortal (and infinite) soul that survives bodily death.

The concept of the soul is ambiguous to me. What I am about to say is implausible to so many people I have spoken to no matter how clearly I think I explain it. I believe the "I", the thing that makes me feel like, I am "I", or, I am me is indestructible but the reason we don't remember anything from a previous life is that "I" needs to be attached to a machine that produces mind and memory, ie. the brain. I feel that "I" is separate from being conscious. When we die, the "I" is still there but we have no consciousness of it. I don't know - it is too hard to explain but the soul remains ambiguous. I to me is just a point of reference.

:-?

Yep, I just confused myself - don't worry.

Meno_ wrote:It's notable that :

Knowledge comes from the Greek word, Gnosis, signifying knowing through observation or experience.

It is great that the word had origins in human thought but this is not to say that what it represents does not have an origin outside of human experience.
Just saying.
I will build a nerdlike structure in 2021
I only meant that the cat knows - or discovers - that we can toss it out a window at any time = "authority". Dogs accept that notion more quickly - not as willing to test it. O:) - obsrvr524
User avatar
encode_decode
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1657
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:07 pm
Location: Nebula

Re: Implausables?

Postby Fixed Cross » Tue May 04, 2021 6:08 pm

Meno_ wrote:Fixed Cross says:


"Yes, existence precludes finity. Infinity is necessary for there to be existence."



>>>>>>>>>> Therefore there fore conscious realization of existence is a caveat to this necessity? Right? We cannot maintain necessity of existence without 'knowing" it.

Quite. I think that's true in my case anyway.

Knowing ,further, entails realization that time and space are somehow categorically different , yet how do we really ascertain these ideal forms of reference or ideas?

No, I mean, you dissect, where I consider the object of study as one thread in a larger fabric. It's what Ive been given to see.
Time and space are the same thing, infinity is not merely spatial and temporal but more so, qualitative in general. (perhaps in this light I can go so far as to suggest time and space are both 'qualities' but that would merely distract. Yet here it is)

We refer to these formal ideas of reference by presumptive logic

Or, in case of more basic minds: as basic experience.

Relatively speaking space and time are somehow dependent on each other but how?

One simple way:
Because time cant be measured if not for travel through space of some energy, and space cant be measured except throughout a timespan.

Pretend I was the 'real' Meno, and I need to be enlightened

The questions I would ask back then would not imply urgency, with a need to facilitate 'knowledge' but with a motive to compensate the accelarating rate of insecurity between me , and the other.

A matter of looking at the surface (time space) and not at the core, or deeper layers at least - quality, and value.

Reasons for existence to exist.
Where "reason" is obviously a derivative - climb that derivative up its own root to the core.

The analogy is in need of realization of the newer version between necessary and contingent relationships.

I am not a Kantian or even a Spinozean, much less an Aristotelean -
Categories within derivatives of the absolute do not mean much to me.

My type of categories; penetrating and trivial.
E.g. Penetrating relationships vs trivial ones.

And I am not agreeing with You for the sake of disagreeing, but only to point to axioatic narratives. The structural manifestations become imperative , as You seem to come to Your conclusions

My axioms never derive from language. Ive never trusted language to that degree. I am a poet after all and a logician. I cant afford to use my wax as my hands, my stone as my hammer.

Language is my bitch, not my queen. Yet also my knight, and not my peasant. Let us say it is my mud, my clay, from which I produce fields of fertility where others produce golems.

I dont believe that truth resides inside some deep consequence of langue. Language is one of truths toys.

They signal the formation of the required necessity of ideal structural difference ( between space and time: eternity and infinity) for existence or the "knowledge" of existence to continue. Refeterntially it's not probative yet it needs an objective reassemblage into unity.

Reiterating; infinity doesn't reduce to space. Its not a quality of space, as eternity is of time.

In other words, how do we come to know this of what we know of these relationships?

Speaking for myself: by mounting Sleipnir.

It's notable that :

Knowledge comes from the Greek word, Gnosis, signifying knowing through observation or experience.

Yes, gignosko - I know.

Of course we know through experience, and what we experience, we know - "I know" - "I have experienced" --

that is clear.
But,

What is given to experience to whom, and why?

By which quality?

The tastiest knowledge is far from universal.
The strong act as they may, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides
Image -
Philosophy Forum - Studio Music - Rhythm Wolf - The Magickal Tree of Life Show
User avatar
Fixed Cross
Doric Usurper
 
Posts: 11527
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:53 am
Location: the black ships

Re: Implausables?

Postby Gloominary » Tue May 04, 2021 11:42 pm

encode_decode wrote:
Gloominary wrote:Some people think NDEs are evidence of an immortal (and infinite) soul that survives bodily death.

The concept of the soul is ambiguous to me. What I am about to say is implausible to so many people I have spoken to no matter how clearly I think I explain it. I believe the "I", the thing that makes me feel like, I am "I", or, I am me is indestructible but the reason we don't remember anything from a previous life is that "I" needs to be attached to a machine that produces mind and memory, ie. the brain. I feel that "I" is separate from being conscious. When we die, the "I" is still there but we have no consciousness of it. I don't know - it is too hard to explain but the soul remains ambiguous. I to me is just a point of reference.

:-?

Yep, I just confused myself - don't worry.

Some people claim to remember things from previous lives.

Can you say anything more about this essential and indestructible part of you?

It may be indestructible, but do you think it changes?

Does anything happen to it during incarnations and if so, are the changes permanent or does it reset to an eternal default every time after bodily death?

Does anything happen to it in between incarnations?

Do you think brains/bodies behave differently depending on which soul or I inhabits them?

How do you know it's there, just an intuition?
User avatar
Gloominary
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3604
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:58 am
Location: Canada

Re: Implausables?

Postby Fixed Cross » Wed May 05, 2021 2:00 am

I am very rudely going to reply to questions asked to someone else. Encode, I tab this so as not to preempt your thought process.

Can you say anything more about this essential and indestructible part of you?

As I accept it, it's a form of integrity, and we recognize it in questions of integrity - how we confront and take them, what we make of ourselves through them - if we become stronger or weaker in the integrity of our values (with each other)

It may be indestructible, but do you think it changes?

It increases in richness, wealth of qualities, depths, powers to experience - but only if it increases in integrity. Structural integrity, like in a building, depends on how much can be carried.

Does anything happen to it during incarnations and if so, are the changes permanent or does it reset to an eternal default every time after bodily death?

Acquisition of greater integrity would in principle be lasting, like increased atomic purity. After all the greater the integrity the harder it is to destroy.

Does anything happen to it in between incarnations?

Ive read interesting stuff about this in Rudolph Steiner. Because it's not my own experience or reasoning I won't reproduce it. Still he's the only one I'd recommend reading on this, as his approach is most thorough and self-consistent, as well as consistent with the quite ruthless logics of existentialism. He's no moralist.

Do you think brains/bodies behave differently depending on which soul or I inhabits them?

The body would be a reflection of the 'soul'.

Our astrological natal chart with its progressions (slow change over time) and synastries (connections to charts of people close to us) is read as a map to the soul, or incarnate Individuality as it is called in Western Occultism

I find all this rather plausible because, like conservation of momentum and energy, we are really talking about conservation of structural integrity, and this extends, if we look at reaction patterns, to conservation of value-structures- What is most hard-won,- that for which what people often call moral courage (morality as code, courage as the resilience of that code) is required, may be that which is most truly gained. What I say here does not include my own experiences in these terms, as I cant possibly convince anyone of their objective reality; what I offer is logical patterns in which we might perhaps conceive of such things as real.
The strong act as they may, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides
Image -
Philosophy Forum - Studio Music - Rhythm Wolf - The Magickal Tree of Life Show
User avatar
Fixed Cross
Doric Usurper
 
Posts: 11527
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:53 am
Location: the black ships

Re: Implausables?

Postby Meno_ » Wed May 05, 2021 8:43 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:I am very rudely going to reply to questions asked to someone else. Encode, I tab this so as not to preempt your thought process.


As far as i'm concerned, every and all said is true, nothing but true!

(Placed palm on virtually all imaginable bibles while reciting the above, ra

Can you say anything more about this essential and indestructible part of you?

As I accept it, it's a form of integrity, and we recognize it in questions of integrity - how we confront and take them, what we make of ourselves through them - if we become stronger or weaker in the integrity of our values (with each other)

It may be indestructible, but do you think it changes?

It increases in richness, wealth of qualities, depths, powers to experience - but only if it increases in integrity. Structural integrity, like in a building, depends on how much can be carried.

Does anything happen to it during incarnations and if so, are the changes permanent or does it reset to an eternal default every time after bodily death?

Acquisition of greater integrity would in principle be lasting, like increased atomic purity. After all the greater the integrity the harder it is to destroy.

Does anything happen to it in between incarnations?

Ive read interesting stuff about this in Rudolph Steiner. Because it's not my own experience or reasoning I won't reproduce it. Still he's the only one I'd recommend reading on this, as his approach is most thorough and self-consistent, as well as consistent with the quite ruthless logics of existentialism. He's no moralist.

Do you think brains/bodies behave differently depending on which soul or I inhabits them?

The body would be a reflection of the 'soul'.

Our astrological natal chart with its progressions (slow change over time) and synastries (connections to charts of people close to us) is read as a map to the soul, or incarnate Individuality as it is called in Western Occultism

I find all this rather plausible because, like conservation of momentum and energy, we are really talking about conservation of structural integrity, and this extends, if we look at reaction patterns, to conservation of value-structures- What is most hard-won,- that for which what people often call moral courage (morality as code, courage as the resilience of that code) is required, may be that which is most truly gained. What I say here does not include my own experiences in these terms, as I cant possibly convince anyone of their objective reality; what I offer is logical patterns in which we might perhaps conceive of such things as real.
Meno_
breathless
 
Posts: 9003
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:39 am
Location: Mysterium Tremendum

Re: Implausables?

Postby encode_decode » Thu May 06, 2021 9:51 am

Brains and bodies behave differently depending on the "soul" embedded within because of consciousness, time/space, and positional displacement that each separate entity is made up of - but this adds a new dimension which would take the questioning outside the realm of what you are interested in from me. The I has to be there, right? Are you not aware of yourself? Something is pointing at your awareness or indicating your awareness. As soon as I remember something from my previous life, I will be sure to let you know. Seriously though, I did have a peculiar experience a long time ago. Since we are on the topic of implausibles I will briefly remember a guy in a show acting as a physicist who asked himself this question: Why is it that we only remember the past and not the future? To which the mathematician said: Having one of those days, are we? I think it was something like this.

Gloominary wrote:Some people claim to remember things from previous lives. Can you say anything more about this essential and indestructible part of you? It may be indestructible, but do you think it changes? Does anything happen to it during incarnations and if so, are the changes permanent or does it reset to an eternal default every time after bodily death? Does anything happen to it in between incarnations? Do you think brains/bodies behave differently depending on which soul or I inhabits them? How do you know it's there, just an intuition?

That is a lot of questions - it looks like some of these can be blended to get a ratio of fewer answers to questions. The net result is sufficient for the input. I am asking myself this question right now: how many dimensions do we need before we gain insight? This varies with the situation and the person I guess. I shy away from one person's set system of thinking and favor my own as I believe you should too. Why? Because when someone explains something to you that you already have some knowledge of(or indeed no knowledge of) your net result will be different from their understanding. It is for this reason that we can find satisfying answers in different corners of our own existence. Finally, what I think is important is in fact relative to some error and some accuracy...favoring accuracy - it is, for this reason, I think it is important that the majority of our own thoughts must be complementary to each other.

Do you think that...hmm...let us pick Einstein because everyone knows Einstein, right? Often referred to as a genius - not everyone agrees to him being a genius but I am sure most people can agree that he is often referred to as a genius. The real question is, was Einstein a genius in every life before this life, and will he be a genius in every life hereafter? Was that one or two questions? Or perhaps three? OK, let us not get lost here.

Please, allow me to quote someone - what they offer gets closer to the heart of my own thoughts, and besides, why should I have all the fun:

Nisargadatta Maharaj wrote:Awareness is primordial; it is the original state, beginningless, endless, uncaused, unsupported, without parts, without change. Consciousness is on contact, a reflection against a surface, a state of duality. There can be no consciousness without awareness, but there can be awareness without consciousness, as in deep sleep. Awareness is absolute, consciousness is relative to its content; consciousness is always of something. Consciousness is partial and changeful, awareness is total, changeless, calm and silent. And it is the common matrix of every experience.

This is not exactly what I believe for reasons I have already given. This offers some separation in much the same way that I do.

Change is very likely to be constant. Things have changed since the big bang(if this is something you want to believe), however, if we may consider one more quote from the same website that I got my last quote from:

Article author wrote:Is consciousness the same as awareness, or do the two words refer to different dimensions of perception? Could it be that in sleep, consciousness dissolves into awareness, which melts into emptiness?

Fairly illustrative of how my thoughts are structured but not entirely what I believe. For me the I points at the awareness. I is a more pure thing. There are infinite ways I could express my thoughts about any of this but it will never ever be the same in your head as in mine.

I believe you were only wanting some of my thoughts and not some rigorous attempt at explanation. If not then I apologize.

What I do know is that the way I think has very real consequences outside my head and that is where I place the value of my thoughts.
Can I do anything real and tangible with my thoughts? The answer is a simple, yes. Apparently pretty well too.

Anyway, thank you for stopping by this little universe of population less than ten.

Hmm, I think I might buy a set of Russian dolls.

:-k
I will build a nerdlike structure in 2021
I only meant that the cat knows - or discovers - that we can toss it out a window at any time = "authority". Dogs accept that notion more quickly - not as willing to test it. O:) - obsrvr524
User avatar
encode_decode
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1657
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:07 pm
Location: Nebula


Return to Science, Technology, and Math



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

cron