Pop Quiz

For discussing anything related to physics, biology, chemistry, mathematics, and their practical applications.

Moderator: Flannel Jesus

Re: Pop Quiz

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Tue Dec 08, 2020 11:30 pm

phoneutria wrote:btw i am not an expert on computer science
nor brains (wtf pedro lol)
i'm an expert builder of shit
i studied this stuff a couple of decades ago
and i'm an avid consumer of random knowledge as y'all know
but my expertise is practical
i can get shit done no matter what language you throw at me
i get your toy done
before christmas
ho ho ho

alright... question two
briefly
brains are kinda sorta similar to computers in one sense
nervous cells fire up upon reaching an action potential
but it ends there
brains are totally analogue
these potentials build up and down
the transmission of a signal from a neuron to another
doesn't necessarily mean that it will trigger that action potential
the communication between one and another is a graded potential
mediated by chemical neurotransmitters
these graded potentials go up and down
as ions pass through the cell membranes
so the excitability of the cells is wildly variable
and doesn't necessarily trigger action potentials
hence much more complicated than simply on and off


Thank you.

The rest of you maggots, go meditate on this.
User avatar
Pedro I Rengel
ᛈᛖᛉᛖᛉ
 
Posts: 9232
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:55 pm

Re: Pop Quiz

Postby phoneutria » Tue Dec 08, 2020 11:30 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:And don't be a smart ass, they do must, because it is the only method used without exception.


yeah just wait a year or two
and you'll hear carbon nanotubes all over the place
and then you're whole stare down about transistors here
is going to make you feel soooo silly
User avatar
phoneutria
purveyor of enchantment, advocate of pulchritude AND venomously disarming
 
Posts: 4264
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:37 am

Re: Pop Quiz

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Tue Dec 08, 2020 11:33 pm

phoneutria wrote:
Pedro I Rengel wrote:And don't be a smart ass, they do must, because it is the only method used without exception.


yeah just wait a year or two
and you'll hear carbon nanotubes all over the place
and then you're whole stare down about transistors here
is going to make you feel soooo silly


You will feel silly. You.

Because the technology is still only going to allow fo binary code, because it will still be "electricity goes through," "electricity does not go through."

Even if some other way became possible it will never be used, cause too much work and development has gone into binary computing, too much evolution.

So you will feel silly. You.
User avatar
Pedro I Rengel
ᛈᛖᛉᛖᛉ
 
Posts: 9232
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:55 pm

Re: Pop Quiz

Postby phoneutria » Tue Dec 08, 2020 11:39 pm

dude
how do you answer why we use binary
with : because transistors
when there are no longer any transistors in use?

neither it is to say because it is ON/OFF, because that is saying why A? because A

the answer is that ON/OFF computation (aka binary) allows for simpler, cheaper, and more precise systems
User avatar
phoneutria
purveyor of enchantment, advocate of pulchritude AND venomously disarming
 
Posts: 4264
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:37 am

Re: Pop Quiz

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Tue Dec 08, 2020 11:40 pm

I don't even actually know what transistors are.

All I know is that the only feasible technology to allow for coding such that it constitutes computing is for elements of a circuit to either allow electricity to go on onto a third circuit or not.
User avatar
Pedro I Rengel
ᛈᛖᛉᛖᛉ
 
Posts: 9232
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:55 pm

Re: Pop Quiz

Postby obsrvr524 » Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:42 am

I think this has wondered off in the weeds because Pedro won't let us know where it is all supposed to lead to. And when we find out I think some answers will change.

I was taught that what they use today is "integrated circuit chips" that are basically millions of ultra tiny transistors already attached in the right manner to get the binary done.

And for those few who watched the video, the neurons are actually binary but one end (the dendrite) acts a sensor that either triggers the bio chemical pulse or doesn't. Any attenuation in the size of the pulse isn't relevant. There is attenuation in wires carrying binary too. That doesn't change the information any.

The brain is still a binary mechanism. The chemical variations merely allow more triggering or less because they affect the trigger sensing from one neuron to another. That makes some parts of the brain become more active and affecting different parts of the body (or other parts of that brain) differently.

I don't think there is going to be a settlement concerning the brain. And if we don't know why the question is being asked, we can't aim any thoughts in that direction.
Member of The Coalition of Truth - member #1

              You have been observed.
    Though often tempted to encourage a dog to distinguish color I refuse to argue with him about it
obsrvr524
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2386
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:03 am

Re: Pop Quiz

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:00 am

The answers are already throughout the scope of this thread. Because it was such a tooth pulling process it is unlikely that anybody will get any illumination from them, at least right away. People find it more important to feel smart or not to feel dumb than to unlock a mistery or solve a puzzle.

Still, I am happy with the thread.

Just getting the answers is to me a great victory.
User avatar
Pedro I Rengel
ᛈᛖᛉᛖᛉ
 
Posts: 9232
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:55 pm

Re: Pop Quiz

Postby obsrvr524 » Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:12 am

So I could have just given you a more pleasant sounding lie and you would be all the more happy?

I'll try to remember that. :D

And I'm thinking now that there aren't any actual science geeks here any more. I know there was years ago. Again I guess I got here too late for my questions. :|
Member of The Coalition of Truth - member #1

              You have been observed.
    Though often tempted to encourage a dog to distinguish color I refuse to argue with him about it
obsrvr524
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2386
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:03 am

Re: Pop Quiz

Postby phoneutria » Wed Dec 09, 2020 3:18 am

obsrvr524 wrote:
And for those few who watched the video, the neurons are actually binary but one end (the dendrite) acts a sensor that either triggers the bio chemical pulse or doesn't. Any attenuation in the size of the pulse isn't relevant. There is attenuation in wires carrying binary too. That doesn't change the information any.

The brain is still a binary mechanism. The chemical variations merely allow more triggering or less because they affect the trigger sensing from one neuron to another. That makes some parts of the brain become more active and affecting different parts of the body (or other parts of that brain) differently.


it's grossly incorrect to state that attenuation (or stimulation) in the size of the pulse isn't relevant
and to call it binary simply because the action potentials are all or nothing
they are chemicals being released in a graded manner
and they have to be considered as a population or network of cells
but also as single cells
and also even as the individual voltage gated ion channels in a synapse
the properties of the cell response at different levels of stimulation
can produce different types of signals
corresponding to different responses
all dependent on the various levels of stimulation on the network
much more complicated than a simple ON/OFF switch
User avatar
phoneutria
purveyor of enchantment, advocate of pulchritude AND venomously disarming
 
Posts: 4264
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:37 am

Re: Pop Quiz

Postby phoneutria » Wed Dec 09, 2020 3:23 am

also when you talk about cloud computing on the first page
i don't think that it means what you think it means
User avatar
phoneutria
purveyor of enchantment, advocate of pulchritude AND venomously disarming
 
Posts: 4264
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:37 am

Re: Pop Quiz

Postby obsrvr524 » Wed Dec 09, 2020 4:12 am

Never mind
Last edited by obsrvr524 on Wed Dec 09, 2020 5:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
Member of The Coalition of Truth - member #1

              You have been observed.
    Though often tempted to encourage a dog to distinguish color I refuse to argue with him about it
obsrvr524
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2386
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:03 am

Re: Pop Quiz

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Wed Dec 09, 2020 5:17 am

obsrvr I don't know why you are being so arrogant about a subject you had to go look for a harvard PR video to explain it to you.
User avatar
Pedro I Rengel
ᛈᛖᛉᛖᛉ
 
Posts: 9232
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:55 pm

Re: Pop Quiz

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Wed Dec 09, 2020 5:19 am

phoneutria wrote:btw i am not an expert on computer science
nor brains (wtf pedro lol)
i'm an expert builder of shit
i studied this stuff a couple of decades ago
and i'm an avid consumer of random knowledge as y'all know
but my expertise is practical
i can get shit done no matter what language you throw at me
i get your toy done
before christmas
ho ho ho

alright... question two
briefly
brains are kinda sorta similar to computers in one sense
nervous cells fire up upon reaching an action potential
but it ends there
brains are totally analogue
these potentials build up and down
the transmission of a signal from a neuron to another
doesn't necessarily mean that it will trigger that action potential
the communication between one and another is a graded potential
mediated by chemical neurotransmitters
these graded potentials go up and down
as ions pass through the cell membranes
so the excitability of the cells is wildly variable
and doesn't necessarily trigger action potentials
hence much more complicated than simply on and off


This is a better explanation than you will get in most neurology classes. It's the kind of explanation that comes from investigating a subject thoroughly and internalizing the information.

And you wave it away because you have a harvard PR video?

I keep telling phoneu she is too good for you all.

But it was still super kickass that she came in here and answered a question I wondered if anybody even would be able to understand.
User avatar
Pedro I Rengel
ᛈᛖᛉᛖᛉ
 
Posts: 9232
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:55 pm

Re: Pop Quiz

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Wed Dec 09, 2020 5:22 am

"Are computers coded in binary because the technology won't allow for anything else?"

"No, the computers are coded in binary because the technology prohibits anything else."

She is just being a smartass, which is an inevitable failing of genius.
User avatar
Pedro I Rengel
ᛈᛖᛉᛖᛉ
 
Posts: 9232
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:55 pm

Re: Pop Quiz

Postby obsrvr524 » Wed Dec 09, 2020 5:41 am

Pedro I Rengel wrote:obsrvr I don't know why you are being so arrogant about a subject you had to go look for a harvard PR video to explain it to you.

I explained precisely that.
But okay. Never mind.
Last edited by obsrvr524 on Wed Dec 09, 2020 5:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
Member of The Coalition of Truth - member #1

              You have been observed.
    Though often tempted to encourage a dog to distinguish color I refuse to argue with him about it
obsrvr524
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2386
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:03 am

Re: Pop Quiz

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Wed Dec 09, 2020 5:44 am

phoneutria wrote:btw i am not an expert on computer science
nor brains (wtf pedro lol)
i'm an expert builder of shit
i studied this stuff a couple of decades ago
and i'm an avid consumer of random knowledge as y'all know
but my expertise is practical
i can get shit done no matter what language you throw at me
i get your toy done
before christmas
ho ho ho

alright... question two
briefly
brains are kinda sorta similar to computers in one sense
nervous cells fire up upon reaching an action potential
but it ends there
brains are totally analogue
these potentials build up and down
the transmission of a signal from a neuron to another
doesn't necessarily mean that it will trigger that action potential
the communication between one and another is a graded potential
mediated by chemical neurotransmitters
these graded potentials go up and down
as ions pass through the cell membranes
so the excitability of the cells is wildly variable
and doesn't necessarily trigger action potentials
hence much more complicated than simply on and off


This is better than that PR video. I guarantee you.
User avatar
Pedro I Rengel
ᛈᛖᛉᛖᛉ
 
Posts: 9232
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:55 pm

Re: Pop Quiz

Postby MagsJ » Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:13 pm

obsrvr524 wrote:The brain is still a binary mechanism. The chemical variations merely allow more triggering or less because they affect the trigger sensing from one neuron to another. That makes some parts of the brain become more active and affecting different parts of the body (or other parts of that brain) differently.

Some brains are like the Super Computer,
in that they can entertain many thought-processes, simultaneously.

Perhaps those types are also very toxic, just like the nanotech that SCs use, is.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
User avatar
MagsJ
The Londonist: a chic geek
 
Posts: 22030
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:59 pm
Location: Suryaloka / LDN Town

Re: Pop Quiz

Postby phoneutria » Wed Dec 09, 2020 3:16 pm

obsrvr524 wrote:
Pedro I Rengel wrote:obsrvr I don't know why you are being so arrogant about a subject you had to go look for a harvard PR video to explain it to you.

I explained precisely that.
But okay. Never mind.


you're going to let pzr bully you into standing down?
stick to your guns, troop
User avatar
phoneutria
purveyor of enchantment, advocate of pulchritude AND venomously disarming
 
Posts: 4264
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:37 am

Previous

Return to Science, Technology, and Math



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users